It is a well-known fact that Bhaktivedanta Swami was a staunch literalist , and he expected this behaviour also of his disciples . ( see the lakhs and crores of servants of king so-and-so ... ) .

But some time ago , I came to learn that some ( or a lot , or all ? ) of the stories and "scientific" explanations in the Bhagavatam , were viewed as allegorical by Bhaktivinoda Thakur .

Now , this information came a little late for me , after having been influenced for years by the literalist approach of Bhaktivedanta Swami . It is just not so easy to rub off . Maybe , in Iskcon , these texts by Bhaktivinoda are not shown with great enthusiasm , or are rather hidden from the general bhaktianity .

Maybe , one is eligible for viewing this "explosive" material after having at least graduated to a temple-president ...

I mean , if they had shown me these texts of Bhaktivinoda ( I mean , he is a very important person for saraswatas , to say the least ... ) when I was at the tender newbie-stage , I wouldn´t have put so much effort in trying to accomodate the enforced "vedic" tales to my understanding ...

Oh , yes , I almost forgot , the Iskon-apologists say that Bhaktivinoda spoke like that for the sake of preaching to an atheist audience ( or something like that ... ), for making it palatable for a certain kind of people , who otherwise would´t have gone into these thematics ... But I´m not sure if that isn´t a cheap excuse .
I´m still wondering what Bhaktivinoda really thought ...

But what is intriguing for me , now that I know about the popularity of tradional vaishnavas , babajis , non-saraswatas , is to know how they view these fantastic stories from the puranas and the cosmogony described there .
Do they dare to dismiss it as allegorical also ?...

I am an enthusiastic follower of Sri Bhaktivinode Thakur and fully embrace his liberal teachings. Yes they are very liberating from the dogmatism of ISKCON. An excellent analysis of Bhaktivinode's position is given in the excellent biography of him by Suklavak Das (?). Jai Bhaktivinode who gives us permission to Westernize Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

What I heard was that he said that when talking with beginners or Westerners it was wisest to tell them how these fantastic descriptions should be considered allegorical, but that was just and only in the beginning. In due course of time the whole, literal truth could be revealed to them when they had become mature enough. I am not sure if that explanation was created by some hopeful Iskcon-member and it was not actually said by Bhaktivinoda himself, whom I sort of liked very much, especially after I heard how he ate fish and how his son claimed that "Bhaktivinoda is in maya with his wives and all...".

Well, what is most important? The (for example) puranic stories or the spiritual truths explained in the stories? Then it dosn´t matter whether those things actually happened or not, right?

While I am happy with the fact Bhaktivinoda serves as inspiration for liberal-minded persons , and that that his writings are liberating from a perhaps detrimental approach ; the fact that he ate fish does not increase my satisfaction ...

I have become a vegetarian because of Gaud.-v. , and I am very satisfied with that way of life , even after having lost my faith in this tradition ; but the years of having had to struggle with the non-availability of non-vegetarian food at some places where I work and the austerities because of that , that I have now tolerated for years , make me consider if I would have taken to this way of life having heard beforehand from famous vaishnavas who weren´t vegetarians . ( There seem to be some babjis who also ate fish , if my memory doesn´t fail me , and in Bengal it just seems to be regional custom . )

Another small "incident" that comes to my mind , is where the biographers of Bhaktivinoda state that when he was some kind of magistrate , it seems that he somehow misused his power to mistreat some kind of people in Orissa . ( I don´t remember the details very well , and it might sound harsh , but when I read that in the past , it sounded quite opposite to mundane gentleman-behaviour , what to speak of vaishnava-achara . ) I must add however, that I think that this incident happened before his embracing the vaishnava-tradition wholeheartedly ; so that might be stated for his defence .

PS : My memory tells me that his eating of fish also predates his "conversion" to vaishnavism .
Anyway , it is always interesting to know all the hidden facets of the acharyas , for having a more complete picture of the whole thing .

Fish or not fish, after vaisnavism or partly during it, I just found it funny, thats all.
I am vegetarian myself. No I am not. I eat eggs.

I don´t like eggs , but when it comes to sweet preparations that often contain eggs , I cannot help but buy it , I am not strong enough .
If I had the choice however , I would buy the same product without eggs ...

Alas , if the foodstuff-industry could hear me ...

Bhaktivinod ate fish and meat before he received initiation from Vipin-vihari Goswami. His family was shakta and they offered goats to Kali and then feasted on the meat.

It seems he was kind of attached to meat-eating, but after receiving initiation he felt more compassionate towards all living beings.

He was a controversial figure, inventing a "Caitanya Upanishad" which was unheard of previously! This is a good example of how cultists try make their odd ideas accepted by others. It is propaganda.

I wouldn´t eggs. It is disgusting. Think about it.

So in relation to Bhaktivinoda, I am sort of backtracking compared to him. This means I end up offering goats in the near future. Something went awfully wrong with my process of purification.

I'm not sure it's accurate to say that Bhaktivinoda considered the stories in the Puranas allegorical. Rather, he said that, as Madhavadasa points out, the points of siddhanta taught by those stories, their essence, is what's important. If the account of history, the numbers of the king's servants, the measurements of the universe, or whatever, impedes your appreciation of the essence of the story being told, he suggests that you may consider it allegorical. That's particularly apparent from his introduction to Sri Krishna Samhita, which had a particular audience. And he described that audience quite specifically in that introduction.

And I second Subal in recommending Sukavak's book, A Hindu Encounter with Modernity, for enhancing understanding of Bhaktivinoda's approach to practiing and teaching Gaudiya vaishnavism.

Well , thinking is ok , but this is a problem of the tongue :
While I reject the idea of eating eggs from an ethical point of view , I am attached to preparations that might contain it . ( not attached to the taste of eggs though , on the contrary ) .

For example the sweet rice :
At my place , the supermarkets are all selling the same type of sweet-rice ( with different flavours ) , but one of the different ingredients are eggs .
Now , what happens is that my memory tells me that I first came to know of this nectarean preparation at the Iskcon-temple , so I am sentimentally attached to it . Now it has become an addiction .
If the supermarkets would offer another variety of sweet-rice that would not contain eggs , I would gladly choose that , because my sense of ethics would be satisfied and the paramatma wouldn´t bother me so much .

That makes me remember the times when I was very fixed up about foodstuffs back in time ( onion , garlic , mushrooms ) , and I observed how gradually the food-products at the supermarkets were becoming increasingly more sattvic . ( more vegetarian preparations , less products containing eggs or onions ... ) .
I thought : " Very clear , this is all the influence of the transcendental book-distribution , and the effect of the congregational chanting " .
Moreover I reasoned that the influenece of the golden age of Lord Gauranga was already showing its first signs .
But that makes me wonder : Yes , back in time I perceived the changing times as moving towards the 10.000 golden years , as viewed by the gaudiyas , so to say an optimistic outlook for the future .
But now I am wondering about the other vaishnavas , who do not accept Gauranga ( except the Oriyas ) : Have they also this promise of a golden age in the imminent future , or are they rather pessimistic , thinking things will deteriorate until Kalki will appear ?

In this case , and if that should be true ( with no hope of a Gauranga-yuga or a Gauranga-kalpa ) I must then suppose that the degradation will go on , and who knows what the agents of Kali will be throwing into my sweetrice , as time moves on ...

Where is the line drawn?

We may question whether precious gems are the result of Siva passing semen, or whether Ravana kidnapped the real Sita, or the true mystery of hidden Govardhana Hill , but if we take this idea that the truth within the story is the only important factor, and not whether the story itself is factual, then where does this lead us?

16108 wives? Choking an eight-mile long snake? A giant wetnurse witch killed by sucking her breast? Ad infinitum....

Did/does Krsna actually exist? Or is the idea of an absolute God enough?

For Bhaktivinoda, there's no question about absolute matters, such as the purely transcendental nature of Krishna's name, form, pastimes, etc. The scope for initial adjustment of perspective is limited to the phenomenal world and our measurement, etc. of things of the phenomenal world. His idea to encourage those acculturated to the Westernized, empirical approach to what's worth knowing to broaden their vision, and if the more relative stuff in the Bhagavatam gets in the way of appreciating Krishna's purely transcendental attributes and pastimes, they should just not worry so much about it. It's a matter of being able to discern what's essential. He would say, of course, that we need help from adepts in doing that, just as we do in any discipline. To do so we would need to be open to what they have to offer. Those who are closed to it for one reason or another would just not yet be eligible to understand. We also have standards to determine who's eligible to take the different classes I've taught at various universities and colleges, so this isn't really such an odd idea.

BTW, would I remember you from McKinley Street, Homer? Could you PM or email me to remind me who you are?

Guess I am just a demon so I don't have the vision.

I doubt you would remember me, prabhu, as I was staying at the youth hostel and coming everyday to the temple for a couple of weeks before I felt there was too much weirdness and I had to follow my heart. If you remember a longhaired guy with a blond girlfriend perhaps you are remembering me. I did live on the Big Island farm for a while in Ookala. That was really weird too. Kailasa Chandra was in charge and he always had his 45 magnum ready to shoot imaginary invaders and stray demons. Manohara taught me to make samosas and I ended up cooking the Sunday feasts that we would take to Captain Cook one week and Hilo the next. That was fun.

The Honolulu temple is where I first had my first Sunday Love Feast, went to mangala aroti, went door-to-door with BTGs and collected mangos from households because they would not give laxmi, wore a dhoti (held up with string) and learned the Chaitanya maha mantra by reading it over the altar of the paper deities, chanted on the street downtown on Saturday and generally had a wonderful time. I also learned that the authority structure was top heavy.

I remember a devotee telling us to be quiet during mangala aroti because Gaurasundara was sleeping! I remember seeing a plate of sumptuous prasadam being taken to him while we were directed to a plate of brown rice and ginger. From this simple discrepancy I understood that there was something amiss and I knew I could not stay.

Later I did live in the temple on the mainland and I was somehow initiated by HDG, probably because I was doing well distributing books.

Just see what dangers one is courting by falling into the ISKCON sweet rice trap


(As usual, Nitaicandra, your smileys are just cracking me up!)

Well, I think thre are a lot things that can undermine people's faith. Bad experiences with leadership can sure do that. It's not that I haven't run into that stuff as well.

Well, longhaired guys with blond girlfriends staying down at the Youth Hostel weren't all that uncommon then. I'm sure I've forgotten more of the folks who came through the temple then than I remember.

You were at the farm when Kailasa was in charge? My wife and I lived in Honomu then. Kailasa brought the guys from the farm to our house for a Govardhana-puja festival. We had festivals for the big holidays at our place in Honomu, and Kailasa suggested that we do something jointly. It seemed to work out fine, despite his insanity. He was surprised, for some reason, that we chanted our rounds, followed the "rules," and had mangal arati and class at our house every day.

Ah, those were the days! In fact, though, the Deities were made of papier-mache, which is much snazzier than paper.

We did have mangal arati with a tape recorder instead of kirtan for a couple of years. However, it was more likely out of deference to Govinda dasi (who's still always sick and very irregular in her habits) than Goursundar, who did come to mangal arati pretty regularly (although he did sleep late sometimes). Also out of deference to our next-door neighbors, who eventually came over and cut down several of our six-foot-plus Tulasi trees one morning while Goursundar and the brahmacharis were out at Mokuleia getting rocks for the rock garden Goursundar wanted to build.

Goursundar did live more comfortably and eat better than the rest of us did. From what I've heard, it was even worse for the girls who lived upstairs. Even though they had a room to sleep in and had fresh vegetables from the garden I kept (the guys ate whatever we got for free, except for feasts, which is why we were so crazy about Sundays and mango season), they had to put up with sharing a bathroom with Goursundar and Govinda dasi, as well as with Goursundar's verbal abuse when he got impatient with things. The guys (sometimes as many as 25 or 30 of us) all shared one toilet and bathed with that garden hose up the hill.

Good God--was I ever that young?

Those were the days...

I remember going to someone’s place for a feast but I cannot recall the faces. This was a couple of years after my stay in Honolulu. After being initiated I stayed in the Manoa Valley temple and I looked after Jagannatha. What was the black presidents name?

Remember when Kailasa bought that jeep and we burned out the motor the very first day coming up the hill from Waipio Valley? I was driving and you should have seen the look on Kailasa's face! He accused me of being a Christian infiltrator and said I was trying to sabotage ISKCON.

A couple of years later I again stayed in Honolulu on my way back from Asia distributing books and there was a huge hassle when the president gave $30 000 of BBT funds to some devotees cousin or something to do a cocaine deal and the guy took them to the airport and told them to wait while he did the deal. Naturally, he never returned! I was asked to carry a briefcase when I arrived and to bring it to the temple, which I did without question. I was horrified when I discovered it was full of drugs. They had no problem endangering me and I was pissed off that I was not informed what I was carrying. I thought it was a manuscript.

I was also there when that Phillipino guy murdered Aksobya. We were bodysurfing together the day before as the whole temple used to go to Makapu - ladies separate of course.

Seems like another world ago.

Homer: What was the black presidents name?
That was Sukadeva.

Remember when Kailasa bought that jeep and we burned out the motor the very first day coming up the hill from Waipio Valley? I was driving and you should have seen the look on Kailasa's face! He accused me of being a Christian infiltrator and said I was trying to sabotage ISKCON.
Has anyone ever said the guy was sane? I have never understood why they let him try to run that place, even for a week.

A couple of years later I again stayed in Honolulu on my way back from Asia distributing books and there was a huge hassle when the president gave $30 000 of BBT funds to some devotees cousin or something to do a cocaine deal and the guy took them to the airport and told them to wait while he did the deal. Naturally, he never returned! I was asked to carry a briefcase when I arrived and to bring it to the temple, which I did without question. I was horrified when I discovered it was full of drugs. They had no problem endangering me and I was pissed off that I was not informed what I was carrying. I thought it was a manuscript.
That was Padmanabha's brother. They "invested" $15,000 expecting to double it. P ended up beating his brother up over the deal. This happened just after I had quit my job to start the gurukula there.

I was also there when that Phillipino guy murdered Aksobya. We were bodysurfing together the day before as the whole temple used to go to Makapu - ladies separate of course.
Now it's starting to sound as though I should remember you. I was pretty close with Akshobhya, and he was killed a couple of months after I started the school. Could you PM me your initiated name, por favor?

Frankly speaking , it wasn´t just the sweet-rice .
The best and most tasteful preparations I have eaten were at the Iskcon-temple .
And what to speak of the festivals ...
That has resulted in the fact that now I am addicted to eat at indian restaurants , but the taste isn´t just the same , there is this pukka-brahmin-cook-offering-ingredient lacking .
And at these restaurants there aren´t some of the common dishes from the temple . I guess it must be the regional variant of the Bengali cuisine , that has some peculiarities that aren´t found in the rest of Bharata-varsha .

And lest but not least the trap I have fallen into , must be the saliva of Krishna that seems to pervade the sweet-rice ...



Yes , please keep enjoying your senses .



Aspiring to serve my sasthanindriyani ,
Nitaicandra

I consider Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur to be the touchstone for my devotional service. Sure, he may have done or said some things that I don't agree with, but hey. I have long since given up the idea of a "perfect, infallible, totally enlightened" guru (after all, we're all human). Therefore, imperfect as I may be, I feel called to carry on his tradition. And, even if Rupa Goswami made the whole thing up, it is still the most viable, beautiful, captivating and practical spiritual path I have found. There is a truth that far surpasses words in books. Bhaktivinode told us not to believe everything we read in old books. My wife and I put his books in that category also. Yet there is a spiritual truth and life that comes through them. We are all imperfect vehicles for this truth, yet it can still shine through us. I am not a literalist, fundamentalist or "traditional" devotee. I follow BVT with a post-modern, Western slant.

There remains a point that I adressed in my original post :
How do the traditional vaishnavas see these contradictory stories from the shastras ?
For a revolutionary like Bhaktivinoda it is easy to dismiss them as allegorical , since he broke anyway with the tradition in other aspects .

But the babajis , the upholders of what they consider to be tradition , would they dare to do that , since they seem to be much more conservative ?

Ok , it is a fact that they don´t seem to be so much interested with puranas or older and dry ( for them ) stuff like that , since they are more into the rasik literature .
Actually , I have read some comments of tradtional gaudiyas becoming bored when hearing katha of the aishvarya aspect of Krishna in Dvaraka , so what would they feel about puranic stories that aren´t even related directly to Krishna-bhakti ...

Nonetheless , I think that the puranas are the foundation , because they existed before the literature of the goswamis , and if one is so bona-fide about the whole vaishnava-thing , these contradictory stories shouldn´t be left unadressed .

Nitaicandra, regarding your title ("Ghora-premanande ki .., why ?!"), then you may be right that premAnanda is ghora. I wonder, though. I am a sceptic and iconoclastic by nature. But at the same time, I am suffering from a feeling of being disconnected. Disconnected from people (in the sense that I cannot seem to forge deeper relationships) and disconnected from the spiritual stratum (if it exists and is not just a vague dream of mine). I guess a part of me wants to believe that premAnanda (and I take this here to refer to spiritual experience in general) is not ghora, "dreadful," but has meaning.

The Earth has no gravity - it sucks!

We fight for every breath, and we tell death to go to hell.

Death is not something ontologically different from life. Death is, in the words of Cioran, an inner fatality of life.

'Aghora' ?

Try telling that to our friend here:

Click to view attachment

Words do not bleed.

I fully expect someone to be outraged by this photo and report it.

Why is it that we can be armchair philosophers and speak of death and yet, we are afraid to gaze upon the reality?

Aghora is a name of Ziva. Maybe you mean the cannibal Hindu sect? If so, then ultimately I do not see much meaning in the practices of that sect, even if I could become rich and famous for joining and writing a book about it.

No, I was not refering to the Aghoris, I was merely suggesting that Aghora (non-dreadful/terrible) is perhaps a better way of propitiating Divinity (as in the way some Shaivites do towards Siva, by calling upon He who is Ghora as Aghora ).
It was just a joke!

I only rarely get jokes... Or rather, I tend to try to take everything seriously. There is always food for thought.

God, if he exists at all, must be both dreadful and loving. I am not sure that it is sound to focus on only one aspect and neglect the other. If we see God only as beauty, light, and so on, then there is a need to worship the Devil alongside him. Have you read Hesse's Demian?

I agree, it is not sound (hence the two names of Shiva 'Ghora' and 'Aghora').

Yes, I've read practically everything by him at some point or other ~ I liked Demian.

"Food for Thought" is the expression of the week.

This comment you are saying is contained within the Jewish aphorism demon est deus inversus whose followers also have these ideas of death as non-different from life, like Cioran. These notions were later appropriated by the Theosophists and then the Irishman Yeats was influenced by them via the Theosophists (shout out to Adrija!)

Yes, indeed. The zaiva people have this one right.


I liked Demian as well. It is a good book.

Eva,
Celtic culture has always embraced this duality; your explanation appears very linear to me. Happy Halloween.

As it is said in the book Club Dumas: "The Devil is God's sadness."

I did not think about that it is true that pre-Christian Celtics, (I am not sure what to call them so I will say Pagans) see a fluidity between these two poles also. It seems so many traditions do. I wonder where this originated, or maybe it originated in several places without one place linearly borrowing it from the next. See I am not that linear I just try very hard to be to hide that I am falling apart at the seams in every which direction! Haha maybe you noticed I said Happy Halloween in another thread, Happy Halloween for life!

When I think of Yeats and Celtic culture I think of what is known as his early "Celtic Twilight" phase, but when I think of Yeats and his interest in mysticism I think of his association with Theosophists.

Oh Yes Oneiros I remember you mentionning that line in the past in reply to a similar discussion and me thinking what a great quote.

My little title is my version of the ecstatic phrase " Gaura premanande ki jai ! "
It reflects my state of mind after having lost my faith in the ga.-vaishnavism :
In the past , I would get overjoyed on hearing anything connected to Gauranga , but now , even though internally I get some favorable feelings when reading about him , I can´t reconcile it with the contradictions encountered in the different scriptures .
That´s why I can not shout anymore in an ecstatic voice " jai " , no , my mind is rather asking "why " ...

Yes , " ghora " doesn´t sound very nice and polite , when adressing " Gaura " , the golden incarnation .
But this is just how I feel about this supposed incarnation of Godhead .
His own pastimes might be very nectarean , but if he is the same person as all the other avataras of Vishnu or Krishna , then he is also responsible for all this weird vedic stuff , and these strange yajnas and rules the devas , manus and rishis have established in his name .

No , I don´t have a problem with premananda , I liked it and I still like it , but all these contradictions in the scriptures made me feel disconnected from the theological baggage , that comes from some of the inhumane puranic or vedic stuff .