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Chanahari
Many of us may have been told that we are "brainwashed". Either our relatives, parents, (ex-)partners, "karmi" friends, when we told them that we are devotees (or else); or just the bystanders on the street, when they saw us marching in white/saffron dhoti or colorful sari, singing the names and dancing. It is a common word to describe the process of changing from a main-stream, normal human being, into a weird, alienated member of a group, who conforms to strange norms. The word itself is a mirror translation of the Chinese expression, and it had something to do with the reforming camps of the Communists in China and Korea. And it carries the presupposition, that this is an effect from outside, by which the brainwasher fights some resistance of the brainwashed, and forms his/her personality into a mass-produced, featureless new one.

I always felt that much part of the so-called "brain-washing" takes place much after the time one joins. And usually, it is not a passive process - it is the own effort of the "brainwashed", when he/she tries to conform to the norms. When those matajis try to convince themselves that they really need a strong, fixed up man to protect them, for they are too stupid to think for themselves, and then wrote articles to Chakra, Dipika and siddhanta.com about this. The norm is there, but they take it up to make co-existence with the circumstances easier; and they can entrench themselves in this.

I know I did the same, although not on such a full scale as these poor matajis (and not too successfully, thanks Radha and Krishna smile.gif ). I once succeed to convince myself that I should surrender to an Iskcon guru; I convinced myself that the Aryans must have been coming from India; I tried hardly and unsuccessfully to convince myself that Darwin, Kepler and Newton were all wrong; I struggled to accept the varnashrama-dharma, whatever it entails; and I made half-assed attempts to convince myself that devotional service means that you should distribute books.
Tapati
I, too, felt that "brainwashing" was something that I did to myself with regard to the improbable things I tried to make myself accept.

Or really, what I did was shove them to the back of my mind: the position of women, the odd science such as moon farther away than the sun, etc., varnashrama dharma--I just verbally supported it while internally I shoved it aside and put my focus on the things that made sense to me.

Then I came out to myself as queer and had to look at it all in the light of being unacceptable by the standards of KC. It enabled me to look at the other things I hadn't been able to accept.

In a philosophy that demands to be accepted absolutely, once you acknowledge one chink in the armor the rest crumbles--or at least, that's how I experienced it.

Yet I still hold onto those pieces that made sense to me, as I feel they are universal things.

I like your idea, Chanahari, that things may have been added to the worship of Radha and Krishna over time. Perhaps that's where the odd things came in, as a means of keeping social control of a class of people--brahmanas over sudras and others.

I concede readily I am just speculating here.
Satyabhama
QUOTE
Yet I still hold onto those pieces that made sense to me, as I feel they are universal things.


No matter what changes in my belief system, I feel that the Krishna element will remain intact, and that alone is a comfort to me. Even if I were to renounce the vaisnava scriptures totally and decide to become a born-again Christian or some such thing, I doubt I would be able to shake this Chor...


Homer
QUOTE (Tapati @ Mar 3 2005, 01:49 AM)
In a philosophy that demands to be accepted absolutely, once you acknowledge one chink in the armor the rest crumbles--or at least, that's how I experienced it.

*


Prabhupada used to say, "If you want to know if the whole pot is cooked, you only have to test one grain of rice."

In other words, if one defect could be found in a philosophy then the entire purport of this philosophy was to be rejected.

The question goes begging concerning all the "faults" in the "Vedic" philosophy.

Even so, I still love in these strange "hindu" ways those things that make me feel joy. wink.gif
angrezi
QUOTE (Homer @ Mar 2 2005, 11:46 PM)
Prabhupada used to say, "If you want to know if the whole pot is cooked, you only have to test one grain of rice."

In other words, if one defect could be found in a philosophy then the entire purport of this philosophy was to be rejected.

The question goes begging concerning all the "faults" in the "Vedic" philosophy.

Even so, I still love in these strange "hindu" ways those things that make me feel joy. wink.gif
*
QUOTE
Tapati:
In a philosophy that demands to be accepted absolutely, once you acknowledge one chink in the armor the rest crumbles--or at least, that's how I experienced it.

Oh, how true. So much to be said for this, where to begin? I will try to import some relevant threads from our mod board to here later.

In my observation this is the major fault of highly organized religious systems that require absolute obedience. The firmer the grip on the practitioner by means of the unquestionable dogma, the more difficult it is to stay in such a practice, although the dogma (or armor as Tapati says) is ultimately designed to keep the 'flock' intact. Kind of a funny paradox. It is dangerous for anyone to demand absolute surrender. It means they themselves must be absolutely beyond fault.

I think most westerners, in general (as well as many Indians), are prone to misunderstanding the guru principle, and often create personality cults around their gurus rather than trying to become self-realized and learned themselves.

I remember hearing recently the Dalai Lama stated that if there was a conflict between science and Buddhism, in which science was proven true, it is Buddhism that must change.

The Vedas themselves are full of superfluous things as well as spiritual. For example, some Shaivas and Shaktas even today maintain that the Aryan/Vedic race and Veda were not the original religion of India. Rather Shiva-Shakti worship was, and everything written after the Rg Veda was influenced by this. I guess I mean to say that "Vedic" philosophy means many things to many people, some of which would be quite unpalatable to followers of say, ACBS. It is a sort of revisionism to claim 10,000 years of philosophy and religious practice has culminated into one faith that is meant to save the entire world. Of course that's what many fanatical sects in many different religions say, hmmm...

As far as brainwashing goes, I think if your spiritual practices/rules&regs and philosophy are so far away from your actual life and experience that you find yourself in anxiety and fear always (and get little spiritual peace), yet you still cling to this, is being brainwashed. At least that is how I understood I was 'brainwashed' wink.gif .
Satyabhama
QUOTE
It is dangerous for anyone to demand absolute surrender.


ohmy.gif Again this word! Since when does "surrender" mean giving in to dogma? mellow.gif

The most beautiful words are getting ruined. Hari sankeerthana means taking money from people-- instead of singing ecstatically in adoration of Krishna.

Surrender now means suspending logic and emotion in favor of someone else's imposed beliefs,-- instead of clinging to the Lords feet like a madman and saying "I'll not let You go even if You command me!"

Just like some people think "faith" means never questioning belief systems, and conforming to the status quo.-- Rather than the real meaning, "I don't believe Krishna would ever do something like that, even if a teacher says so.... I have FAITH in Him."
angrezi
QUOTE (Satyabhama @ Mar 3 2005, 10:15 AM)
ohmy.gif  Again this word!  Since when does "surrender" mean giving in to dogma?  mellow.gif

I think that is the scary part, 'surrender' is often defined by the (human) person that demands it. wink.gif
Satyabhama
I take "maam ekam sharanam vraja" literally. smile.gif To Him only I give my surrender. If someone else can take me to Him directly, then by all means, the surrender I give towards Krishna also applies to the person driving the bus. But if this person, religious authority or no, does not have my Krishna (meaning if the dogma is obscuring Him as He is... His full kindness) then there is no possibility of "surrendering" to a human being to the exclusion of the Lord. No way!

Perhaps that is the meaning of sarvadharmaan parityajya?
Chanahari
QUOTE (Tapati @ Mar 3 2005)
In a philosophy that demands to be accepted absolutely, once you acknowledge one chink in the armor the rest crumbles--or at least, that's how I experienced it.


Yes. I also dispatched the dogmas step by step, or like a chain reaction. The things are based on each other. I remember to another devotee, when fighting against a fit of doubt, loudly asking: "If the books say that earth is flat, how could I trust them when they write about God?"


QUOTE (Tapati @ Mar 3 2005)
I like your idea, Chanahari, that things may have been added to the worship of Radha and Krishna over time. Perhaps that's where the odd things came in, as a means of keeping social control of a class of people--brahmanas over sudras and others.


QUOTE (angrezi @ Mar 3 2005, 03:59 PM)
For example, some Shaivas and Shaktas even today maintain that the Aryan/Vedic race and Veda were not the original religion of India. Rather Shiva-Shakti  worship was, and everything written after the Rg Veda was influenced by this.
*


Hmmm, it is a pattern here. I may later speak expound my theory somewhere here. It is very similar to that. smile.gif

Indeed, I didn't really know that it is a claim for some Shaivas, though I knew that this is a popular theory among some indologists.

QUOTE (angrezi @ Mar 3 2005, 03:59 PM)
Oh, how true. So much to be said for this, where to begin? I will try to import some relevant threads from our mod board to here later.

In my observation this is the major fault of highly organized religious systems that require absolute obedience. The firmer the grip on the practitioner by means of the unquestionable dogma, the more difficult it is to stay in such a practice, although the dogma (or armor as Tapati says) is ultimately designed to keep the 'flock' intact. Kind of a funny paradox. It is dangerous for anyone to demand absolute surrender. It means they themselves must be absolutely beyond fault.

I think most westerners, in general (as well as many Indians), are prone to misunderstanding the guru principle, and often create personality cults around their gurus rather than trying to become self-realized and learned themselves.
*


The personality cult, as well as other appearences of flock behavior, are part of the human psyche. I wonder if there is some evolutionary value in it. In a mass of people - or generally, in any place where access to information on the environment is more difficult - it may be prudent to "follow" (in the everyday sense of the word) those individuals who act with determination and in a commanding way - these behavioral patterns are the signs that s/he has more information, and more information helps in the survival. It is also true that if many people do the same thing, it maybe useful to imitate them - maybe you are the only who missed an important bit of information. Mass behavioral patterns are based on these ancient instincts.

But personality cult behavior is not only the fault of the average worshipper. Besides building on these above patterns of behavior, the religious and other institutions (in the broader sense) made thousands years long effort to come up with effective means by which they can hold people in their power. That's why the good-evil dichotomy and other technologies to hold followers in line are so widely present in today's religious. The principle of belonging to a guru, and the obligation of accepting and surrendering to a guru, is, even might be created benevolently, has a great potential for abuse - it gives power to the wielder of the post "guru", and the claimant of this title can even unconsciously instill personality cult mentality in the people.

On GD, once was a thread: "The sin to believe", about men who were believed by their followers to be God. There were many insightful posts about this topic, I think.
Chanahari
QUOTE (Satyabhama)
Again this word! Since when does "surrender" mean giving in to dogma?


I always thought that surrender is a terminus technicus of armies, and it means capitulation. White flag, laying down weapons, and being captured. wink.gif
Satyabhama
QUOTE
I always thought that surrender is a terminus technicus of armies, and it means capitulation. White flag, laying down weapons, and being captured.


Yes, I like that image when it refers to our amorous Lord Krishna ... just lay down and let Him caputre you(r heart?). tongue.gif eek!
angrezi
QUOTE (Chanahari @ Mar 3 2005, 10:34 AM)
Indeed, I didn't really know that it is a claim for some Shaivas, though I knew that this is a popular theory among some indologists.
The personality cult, as well as other appearences of flock behavior, are part of the human psyche. I wonder if there is some evolutionary value in it. In a mass of people - or generally, in any place where access to information on the environment is more difficult - it may be prudent to "follow" (in the everyday sense of the word) those individuals who act with determination and in a commanding way - these behavioral patterns are the signs that s/he has more information, and more information helps in the survival. It is also true that if many people do the same thing, it maybe useful to imitate them - maybe you are the only who missed an important bit of information. Mass behavioral patterns are based on these ancient instincts.

But personality cult behavior is not only the fault of the average worshipper. Besides building on these above patterns of behavior, the religious and other institutions (in the broader sense) made thousands years long effort to come up with effective means by which they can hold people in their power. That's why the good-evil dichotomy and other technologies to hold followers in line are so widely present in today's religious. The principle of belonging to a guru, and the obligation of accepting and surrendering to a guru, is, even might be created benevolently, has a great potential for abuse - it gives power to the wielder of the post "guru", and the claimant of this title can even unconsciously instill personality cult mentality in the people.

*
I think there certainly is an evolutionary aspect to this issue. That's why as I have stated before, I'm not against any institution, including Iskcon. I am not against the guru principle. Anything can and will be abused by the unscroupulous in any sphere of activity, spiritual or otherwise. (Not to say it always is.)

So, in that sense there is never any question of 'perfect religion', as declension is inherent in any religion. There can be no static; yet the institution exists on the static principle. Therefore it will always be continously built, destroyed and rebuilt, whether on an institutional level or an individual.

I think 'brainwashing' comes into play when there ceases to be an evolutionary aspect to the belief system and it becomes detrimental. The point at which it becomes detrimental is the subjective experience of the individual, and apt to be confused, leading to the 'brainwashed' state.
Satyabhama
QUOTE
I always thought that surrender is a terminus technicus of armies, and it means capitulation. White flag, laying down weapons, and being captured.


I think surrender can mean this: that we afraid to question dogmas that make us feel safe and controlled. But we should surrender ourselves to Krishna, rather, and let Him take us where He will, whether that destination is in traditional lineages or in some other lineage, or no lineage.

And if like me "no lineage" may be the best looking option (unless I find something which fits my specific devotional needs), to surrender may be to relinquish the fear that, as traditionalists say, the "grace connection" may be lost without being part of a lineage? To let go of this fear and accept Krishna as our only refuge? Can "surrender," then, have exactly the opposite meaning that people have assigned to it?
angrezi
QUOTE (Satyabhama @ Mar 3 2005, 11:00 AM)
And if like me "no lineage" may be the best looking option (unless I find something which fits my specific devotional needs), to surrender may be to relinquish the fear that, as traditionalists say, the "grace connection" may be lost without being part of a lineage?  To let go of this fear and accept Krishna as our only refuge?  Can "surrender," then, have exactly the opposite meaning that people have assigned to it?
*
This is just my own opinion, but I think one can find the lineage that suits one best and then adapt within. If that tradition does not allow adaptation, it is probably not for you (or me sad.gif biggrin.gif ).

I tend to feel that identification with a traditional linage (I mean broadly, the 4 sampradayas) is important for most people (I'm speaking here as far as traditional Indian bhakti sects are concerned), as it in itself serves to help mold the spiritual identity of the aspirant. It gives one an added since of being His (or Her's) and a heartfelt connection with a particular manifest swarup of the Lord. This is not neccessary for some souls, but I'm speaking generally here.

I'm not sure it is absolutely neccessary in order to get the "grace connection" as we are all already connected to God.
Chanahari
QUOTE (Satyabhama)
I think surrender can mean this: that we afraid to question dogmas that make us feel safe and controlled. But we should surrender ourselves to Krishna, rather, and let Him take us where He will, whether that destination is in traditional lineages or in some other lineage, or no lineage.


So in your case, this means that when you surrender to Krishna, that means that you are not surrender to the dogma. It is not a capitulation, but the Supreme Changing Sides. smile.gif I have a similar understanding of "sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja".

...except that I prefer the "radham ekam saranam vraja" version. wink.gif



QUOTE (angrezi @ Mar 3 2005, 05:11 PM)
This is just my own opinion, but I think one can find the lineage that suits one best and then adapt within. If that tradition does not allow adaptation, it is probably not for you (or me sad.gif  biggrin.gif ).

I tend to feel that identification with a traditional linage (I mean broadly, the 4 sampradayas) is important for most people (I'm speaking here as far as traditional Indian bhakti sects are concerned), as it in itself serves to help mold the spiritual identity of the aspirant. It gives one an added since of being His (or Her's) and a heartfelt connection with a particular manifest swarup of the Lord. This is not neccessary for some souls, but I'm speaking generally here.

I'm not sure it is absolutely neccessary in order to get the "grace connection" as we are all already connected to God.
*


It may be true, if one succeed to find that lineage which s/he can adapt to. If there is no way to find out, one may feel easier to start an own lineage and do that instead of waiting the chance to find the one to be adapted to.
Satyabhama
QUOTE
If that tradition does not allow adaptation


I think the above is what I was getting at.

I hope I did not come across as though I never want to join any traditional lineage. I do have a lot of affection for Sri Sampradaya. Whether I ever "join" it officially by taking initiation or not, I am still deeply pondering. I want to make sure that my doing that somehow bears fruit in my life by bringing me closer to Krishna; not "joining" and then coming back here to US and not being able to contact the person. sad.gif I am not going to do it just because it is "the thing to do." That is not a proper reason in my opinion.

I am looking for someone who inspires me, who shares my bhav, and who has a lot of time for one on one instruction (I am a very selfish and demanding prospective sishya I admit! tongue.gif).

As it is now, I feel like I am participating in the Srivaishnava tradition by reading the works of the acharyas, and something special happens in my heart when I hear:

QUOTE
MangaLAsAsana-parair-madhAchArya -purOgamai:
sarvaisccha poorvair-AachAryai:sathkruthAyAsthu MangaLam


When I hear this I think of acharyas like Swami Desikan and Yamunacharya and Ramanujacharya, Andal, Nammalvar.... And I feel like these are MY acharyas (again, my posessiveness coming into play again? tongue.gif) What does this feeling mean? I am not yet sure. smile.gif I am researching here. Give me some time. biggrin.gif I am not making any hasty decisions one way or another. But I am not feeling compelled to rush, fearing Krishna is not going to bestow mercy if I don't pick somebody *right now* Eek! tongue.gif
angrezi
QUOTE (Satyabhama @ Mar 3 2005, 11:38 AM)
  Give me some time. biggrin.gif  I am not making any hasty decisions one way or another.  But I am not feeling compelled to rush, fearing Krishna is not going to bestow mercy if I don't pick somebody *right now* Eek! tongue.gif
*
Yes, the one thing we can be certain about is the abundance of time to ponder over these things biggrin.gif ...

Hasty decisions are certainly not good in any activity (although there is a popular business book out now to the contrary wink.gif )

Krsna is certainly not going anywhere.
Satyabhama
QUOTE
Hasty decisions are certainly not good in any activity (although there is a popular business book out now to the contrary  )

Krsna is certainly not going anywhere.


(Sorry, there's no hug smiley) wub.gif
kishalaya
Logically you can surrender absolutely only to God. By definition, (S)He is not going to have any underhand agenda here.
Brainiac
I never felt that I was "brainwashed" per se because I am Indian and GV was an aspect of Indian culture to me. While I initially did not believe in it, I took it up when the time was ripe. However, I was astounded at the reaction of other Indians/Hindus to GV (mostly ISKCON prejudice) in that some ridicule is suffered. "So you have also gone and joined those crazy Hare Krishnas? When are you going to shave your head?" (cackle cackle)

I felt quite upset at how other Indians would mock something that is essentially a part of the Indian culture. If such things like shaven heads and orange dhotis bothered them, how come they never said anything when a "real" shaven and oranged guru was in town? Was it because the guru was "Indian"? Were the Hare Krishnas ridiculed for being "Western"? In this connection it seems that there was a social aspect of brainwashing. Instead of the Hare Krishnas, it seemed as if the public were brainwashed, and especially the Indian public. Although they never seemed to mind when it came to the free food. rolleyes.gif
Dhyana
(Angrezi)
QUOTE
Krishna is certainly not going anywhere.

O Angrezi, I can see you are indeed not in Vrindavan anymore... or you wouldn't be talking like this... (just couldn't resist tongue.gif )
babu
QUOTE (Homer @ Mar 3 2005, 12:46 AM)
Prabhupada used to say, "If you want to know if the whole pot is cooked, you only have to test one grain of rice."

In other words, if one defect could be found in a philosophy then the entire purport of this philosophy was to be rejected.
*


My rejecting Prabhupada's philosophy wasn't so much to do with finding a fault or weakness and then having the whole thing crumble. His "Easy Journey To Other Planets" seemed to be not what it presented itself as being and his later philosophical disclosures blasted the whole moon and space exploration thing which offended me in no small way as I always wanting to be an astronaut and when it finally came down to flying around in a rocket and going to the moon or mars or going out and distributing books all day in the freezing cold, I went with going to the moon.
Satyabhama
QUOTE
O Angrezi, I can see you are indeed not in Vrindavan anymore... or you wouldn't be talking like this... (just couldn't resist  )


I told you, Krishna is here in the pocket of my winter coat. If anybody wants Him, PM me! laugh.gif
babu
I get Krishna in a can. Perfect for all you canishtas out there.
Satyabhama
Somebody suggested me to put Krishna in a can, but I couldn't seem to squeeze Him into such a small space.
kishalaya
QUOTE (Azra`iL @ Mar 3 2005, 11:14 PM)
"So you have also gone and joined those crazy Hare Krishnas? When are you going to shave your head?" (cackle cackle)


Can't blame them when your only son runs off from college shaving his head and the family is in a limbo. And this reaction is not particular to ISKCON. My uncle joined RamaKrishna Mission and there was this same anti propaganda against RKM. When I joined naturally my family got police cases of kidnapping initiated against ISKCON. It is more visible because ISKCON was really on the fast track growth agenda. My college actually nearly banned ISKCON because many of the "interested" actually left their livelihood careers to join as fulltime brahmacaris, so the college felt responsible. And somehow, I have to agree with them that I could not see it at that time that answering such calls of inspiration from God would put my future life in a lot of trouble, which it actually did. And so do many of my friends agree.

Another reason is this go getter mentality of making "Life Members". I can tell you the looks I used to get from people. That was a hellish period and I was being told by my "mentor" - Vrindavan is service ..... la la la la la la ....
angrezi
QUOTE (Dhyana @ Mar 3 2005, 01:21 PM)
(Angrezi)

O Angrezi, I can see you are indeed not in Vrindavan anymore... or you wouldn't be talking like this... (just couldn't resist  tongue.gif )
*

Yes, I don't think he is going anywhere, but I never actually knew where he was in the first place blink.gif. Evidently because Satya and Babu had him all along biggrin.gif ...
Tapati
QUOTE (Satyabhama @ Mar 3 2005, 07:24 AM)
I take "maam ekam sharanam vraja" literally. smile.gif  To Him only I give my surrender.  If someone else can take me to Him directly, then by all means, the surrender I give towards Krishna also applies to the person driving the bus.  But if this person, religious authority or no, does not have my Krishna (meaning if the dogma is obscuring Him as He is... His full kindness) then there is no possibility of "surrendering" to a human being to the exclusion of the Lord.  No way!

Perhaps that is the meaning of sarvadharmaan parityajya?
*



I wish I had had even half of your common sense when I was your age!
Kalkidas
QUOTE (Satyabhama @ Mar 3 2005, 07:24 PM)
I take "maam ekam sharanam vraja" literally. smile.gif  To Him only I give my surrender.  If someone else can take me to Him directly, then by all means, the surrender I give towards Krishna also applies to the person driving the bus.  But if this person, religious authority or no, does not have my Krishna (meaning if the dogma is obscuring Him as He is... His full kindness) then there is no possibility of "surrendering" to a human being to the exclusion of the Lord.  No way!

Perhaps that is the meaning of sarvadharmaan parityajya?
*


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Kalkidas
QUOTE (Satyabhama @ Mar 3 2005, 11:06 PM)
Somebody suggested me to put Krishna in a can, but I couldn't seem to squeeze Him into such a small space.
*


I remember reading in varta (hagiography) of Sri Krishna Das Adhikari, one of the eight prominent poets of Pushti Marg sect, how he banished Bengalese brahmanas from service in Sri Nathji Haveli because they were plaiting tiny murtis of Durga in their braids.
Ever tried to put Krishna in your braid, Satyabhama ji? smile.gif
Homer
QUOTE (babu @ Mar 4 2005, 02:38 AM)
I went with going to the moon.
*


Wow! Quite a neat trick. Especially when the moon is so much further away than the sun! unsure.gif
ni dios ni amo
i think there was some definite elements of brainwashing involved in my ISKCON experience. the intent might not have been to brainwash, but, well, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... let me break it down.

1. guilt and shame. there was a ton of guilt involved, all the time. if someone had a "fall down," especially of a sexual nature, they were shamed horribly. especially if they were female. i personally witnessed young girls (late teens to early twenties) being thrown out of the temple while the male they "fell down" with was allowed to remain with no penalty.
2. encouragement towards deception ("don't tell the new bhaktas/bhaktins this or that, they'll leave!")
3. no open channels for dissent. challenges and disagreements were mocked, ridiculed, and ultimately crushed. disagreeing with any authority generally meant you were "off." and how dare anyone ever think that maybe prabhupada was wrong about anything.
4. coersion/intimidation. i remember seeing older devotees gang up and browbeat (verbally) younger devotees to get them to comply with whatever they want, especially menial services like cleaning.

this wasn't necessarily done on purpose, but i was definitely sleep deprived when i was in ISKCON. i remember being shamed for taking a nap or sleeping past dawn, but service would sometimes keep us up really late. i would be exhausted to the point of being weepy and hallucinating. i'd do whatever i was told when i was in that state, just to get whoever was bothering me to shut up. some of us were also malnourished from an extremely poor diet (one winter we had nothing but kitri for both breakfast and lunch for weeks).
Tapati
I think New Vrndavana was the most extreme of all the temples/farms in the movement in all of these regards. It was also probably harder to leave. In the city you could just walk out. I'm sure transportation off the farm was a lot harder. (I should say I visited once for Janmastami in 1975.)

The lack of sleep that went on in most of the temples came from Prabhupada saying in once purport that humans need 6 hours of sleep and more is in the mode of ignorance. In yet another place he said 6-8 hours. Devotees latched on to the 6 hour figure as being ideal because heaven forbid, we don't want to be in "the mode of ignorance!" Although I think nodding off in Bhagavatam class because you are too tired to stay awake qualifies. Our work load was ok in the temples I lived in--Chicago and St. Louis. But the schedule only allowed for 6 hours and I asked for a special arrangement for an additional nap in the morning and received it--so it wasn't impossible there. (Though I am not one to go to sleep quickly so it did little good.)

We were mostly young; young people see things in black and white and no shades of gray, little experience or maturity in interpersonal relationships, and all insecure about learning the standards of a completely different (and idealized) culture.

It was bound to be dysfunctional. I don't think it rose to the level of brainwashing in the sense of prison camps during wartime.
Preyobrazhenya
QUOTE (Tapati @ Mar 11 2005, 12:01 AM)
I think New Vrndavana was the most extreme of all the temples/farms in the movement in all of these regards. It was also probably harder to leave. In the city you could just walk out. I'm sure transportation off the farm was a lot harder. (I should say I visited once for Janmastami in 1975.)

The lack of sleep that went on in most of the temples came from Prabhupada saying in once purport that humans need 6 hours of sleep and more is in the mode of ignorance. In yet another place he said 6-8 hours. Devotees latched on to the 6 hour figure as being ideal because heaven forbid, we don't want to be in "the mode of ignorance!" Although I think nodding off in Bhagavatam class because you are too tired to stay awake qualifies. Our work load was ok in the temples I lived in--Chicago and St. Louis. But the schedule only allowed for 6 hours and I asked for a special arrangement for an additional nap in the morning and received it--so it wasn't impossible there. (Though I am not one to go to sleep quickly so it did little good.)

We were mostly young; young people see things in black and white and no shades of gray, little experience or maturity in interpersonal relationships, and all insecure about learning the standards of a completely different (and idealized) culture.

It was bound to be dysfunctional. I don't think it rose to the level of brainwashing in the sense of prison camps during wartime.
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Ah, the 6 hours of sleep thing.

When I was in the Miami temple, they were pretty fanatic about that. There were some zealots who would sleep only 4 hours a night!

Fortunately, by the time I was in Gita Nagari, things had softened up a bit - at least there.

My Bhaktin leader interpreted the 6 hour thing as needing at least 6 hours of sleep. In general, thoughout my main ISKCON years, I would sleep 6 hours at night and then 1 or 2 hours during the day. I still often fall into this sleep pattern.

The other thing was cold showers. There simply wasn't any hot water in the Miami temple, so I was pretty surprised when I came to Gita Nagari and found the shower room very steamed up. At GN, I was instructed to take a warm shower and only rinse with cold water to get rid of the germs. We even had a bathtub for the occasional soaking bath. I still shower like this because I find the cold rinse to be refreshing. In Boston, there was this one mataji that instisted on cold showers and I would hear her in the morning practically screaming while she took it. As for me, I stuck to what I learned in Gita Nagari.

For awhile the Brahmacarini ashram in Boston was on the 3 floor and we had a wonderful old fashioned bathub. Several of us would take long soaks at the end of the day. I really missed that tub once we were moved to the 4th floor.
babu
QUOTE (Preyobrazhenya @ Mar 11 2005, 10:09 AM)
At GN, I was instructed to take a warm shower and only rinse with cold water to get rid of the germs.
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I always used to forget about them germs.
nabadip
The brainwashing project in Iskcon and GM orgs is set up mostly unconsciously, but partly also consciously by the leadership, and it inlcudes all facets that form the daily life in a temple. Remember: When an Indian becomes a member of a traditional Gaudiya line, nothing much changes in his life-style, or only moderate changes occur. For a Westerner however everything changes dramatically, and traumatically. A western person is stepping out of accepted society, takes on a different identity, different eating habits, sleeping patterns with severe sleep-depravation, different modes of communication, learns different non-verbal communication habits, and all this is getting ingrained into the system, interiorized in the form of a guilt-consciousness, if what is forced on is refused, questioned or altered.

In other words, a mature individuation process is not encouraged, personality is discredited, whereas mass-(un)consciousness inducing patterns are welcomed and nourished.

The whole system is alienating, and focused on decision-control through others (German: Fremdkontrolle) to reduce individuality and the development of ethical values that include the best of all. These systems are sick to their bones.

To grow out of this, we have to acknowledge that each of us has voluntarily submitted his/her being for some time to this totalitarian dehumanization-process, precisely because we had some of that sickness already in ourselves.
The healing process takes time and a strong will and discernement (discrimination, forgive me my English lapses), especially where we experienced positive values that we cannot discard from our on-going lives.

Even if some of us choose to discard everything, we still can look back and say with some gratitude: I survived it. (Remember: some did not. there are a number of suicides that this fascist Iskcon-system (including the leader- and foundership) is responsible for. Not to speak of the magnitude of lifelong unhappiness for many, many that it created and the abuse it forced onto individuals.)
Dhyana
QUOTE
The brainwashing project in Iskcon and GM orgs is set up mostly unconsciously, but partly also consciously by the leadership, and it inlcudes all facets that form the daily life in a temple. Remember: When an Indian becomes a member of a traditional Gaudiya line, nothing much changes in his life-style, or only moderate changes occur. For a Westerner however everything changes dramatically, and traumatically. A western person is stepping out of accepted society, takes on a different identity, different eating habits, sleeping patterns with severe sleep-depravation, different modes of communication, learns different non-verbal communication habits, and all this is getting ingrained into the system, interiorized in the form of a guilt-consciousness, if what is forced on is refused, questioned or altered.

An excellent observation, Nabadip! (and welcome to Gaudiya Repercussions! FLOWERS.GIF )
I, too, think that much of it is not consciously set up as a technique of influence.

A good essay on brainwashing:

"Reflections on 'Brainwashing' by Geri-Ann Galanti, in: Langone, Michael (ed.) (1993) Recovery From Cults

This lady, affiliated with the American Family Foundation (an anticult organization), signed up for a weekend retreat organized by the Moonies to observe their brainwashing techniques. She was quite impressed by the people, their openness, the camaraderie at the camp, and she had a great time. There were some behaviors that she considered weird but also charming, since they were obviously sincere. She returns after two days and says to the friend picking her up, "I had a great time. Remind me again what's so bad about the Moonies." Only back at home, she can start reflecting back and seeing patterns. And still, even then she doesn't think the Moonies she met were scheming or insincere.

She concludes her article:

"Mind control is a heavily loaded term, evoking images of men reaching long fingers into our brains, controlling us like helpless puppets. in reality, it refers to the use of manipulative techniques that are for the most part extremely effective in influencing the behavior of others. They are not easily recognized because they are techniques utilized by all cultures -- directly and imdirectly -- to socialize children and acculturate immigrants. ... The confusion surrounding the brainwashing process stems from the fact that most people are looking for something overt and foreign ... when it most surely is not. I went to Camp K looking for something big and evil; what I found was very subtle and friendly, thus I didn't recognize its power."


I once tried to "dissect" my own experience joining ISKCON, and my own preaching:

QUOTE
I don’t remember making a clear-cut decision to convert. It happened beyond me, even against a part of me. I attended devotee gatherings for the sake of the people and the music. Singing sessions were usually followed by a lecture. So I listened to them talk about God or reincarnation  -- all too good to be true -- and sneered to myself, "This they will never make me believe!" Several weeks later, I happened to be filling in a questionnaire some senior students passed out. "Do you believe in God?" read one of the questions. Mechanically, I was about to cross No, when I realized my usual answer no longer felt right. I wasn't a nonbeliever anymore. The life I had just discovered seemed to point to a God. What I had was not belief in God, rather hope for a God. But some of the questions life asks of us allow only for a Yes/No answer.

It wouldn't be difficult to use the above to make a case for "cultic manipulation": lots of positive attention, a flood of new impressions, new activities, people around constantly repeating the message, et caetera. And I would agree, provided a distinction was kept between mechanisms of influence and conscious, purposeful use of these mechanisms.

I knew my loneliness was playing in. I realized that participating in the meetings, "doing the Krishna things," could lead to a cognitive dissonance and an attitude change. But to my mind, once God was the issue, nothing else should matter. Adding the transcendent God to the equation was like adding the infinity; it changed the relevance of all the other values. If the awareness of my emotional neediness made me hesitate before seeking up the devotees, it was not because I feared being pitied or manipulated (although I did fear both), rather because I felt that spiritual people should be approached for spiritual reasons, not to get some strokes. The same conviction had prevented me, seven years earlier, from joining a youth Christian movement. But this time, I decided, I did have a spiritual reason and this was all that mattered. Similarly, whether acting in accordance with the Krishnaite teachings would make me more inclined to allow the possibility of Krishna's existence was beside the point. The point was, did he exist or not? I was going to find out. I felt confident. A God that wouldn't reciprocate with an endeavoring seeker made sense neither to me, nor to the Krishnaite theology.

I am convinced that the devotees around me were not out to psychologically manipulate anyone or exploit their vulnerabilities. They tried to share their spiritual "goods," but their idea of how it worked had little to do with psychology. To their mind, if offering a guest spiritualized food had effect, it was not because of cognitive dissonance or the reciprocity principle, but because such food was charged with a spiritual energy, automatically purifying the eater. Similarly, the wisdom of inviting a guest to take part in singing Hare Krishna had little to do with the social dimension of the act, and everything to do with God turning his attention to the person calling his name.

In time I, too, learned how to take care of guests and inquirers. We were manipulative, but not in the subtle ways cult critics speak about. We had ways of getting our apprehensive family members to taste food offered to Krishna without telling them it was offered; we liked to trick the skeptics into saying "Hare Krishna," and we followed Srila Prabhupada's urging to distribute his books "by hook or by crook." Our idea of how it worked was as lofty as it was mechanistic. Some of us even believed that putting a person in touch with spiritualized items was worth upsetting or offending the person. Only gradually -- and painfully -- did ISKCON learn not to underestimate the "mundane" sociopsychological dimension.

If we understood, back then, the psychological strings we pulled and how these influenced our new converts’ beliefs, we would be less authentic in our endeavors and thus less convincing. Besides, how would we have avoided questioning the nature of our own faith?
Preyobrazhenya
One so-called cult technique that I never experienced was "love bombing." This was supposed to be what the Moonies or Children of God or the Mormons did. If anything, it was hard to have any devotees even pay attention to me to preach to me. I don't count any devotee influence on me joining the Temple - that came from my reading the books.

I think that devotees in city temples with big sankirtan programs went through much more brainwashing types of training that those of us on the farm. There, was, however, the constant reinforcement through Bhagavatam Class with the us vs. karmis, bad meat-eaters, etc., etc.. To some extent, I already had bad ideas about the rest of the world long before ISKCON; so it was more a matter of ISKCON reinforcing something which I already felt, rather than introducing a new way of thinking.

One thing that I sensed when I was in the Boston temple was that the training was more intense for the men - who had to get all of this brahmacari crap pounded into them that made even the new bhaktas act like kings over the "stupid" long initiated and more mature women.
jatayu
QUOTE (Dhyana @ Mar 25 2005, 07:59 PM)
A good essay on brainwashing:

"Reflections on 'Brainwashing' by Geri-Ann Galanti, in: Langone, Michael (ed.) (1993) Recovery From Cults

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Thanks Dhyana, some good points.
Tapati
Ok, are these people brainwashed?

http://tinyurl.com/cb7bn


All I know is that I am sick to my stomach after reading about them.

edited to add:

their arrival in town:

http://tinyurl.com/d9vwr

Someone also looked up their actual websites which I haven't had time to look at yet:


http://www.meadeministries.com/

and End Times Church

http://www.restoringthevision.com/

I got all of this from a discussion on ecauldron.

I am glad these folks are not my neighbors.
Oneiros
QUOTE (Tapati @ Apr 27 2005, 02:29 AM)
Ok, are these people brainwashed?
*

Wow! It is hard to argue with a guy who "...walked with God along the Milky Way and heard the Lord's very word."

And here we read: "The Lord appeared to his [Meade's] mother before he was born and told her that the child she was expecting would be mightily used of the Lord in a great end time ministry unlike any other."

I say, beware when gods appear to people and statues begin to speak...
Chanahari
QUOTE (Tapati @ Apr 27 2005, 08:29 AM)
Ok, are these people brainwashed?


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Definitely.


They primarily brainwashed themselves to believe that Meade is really a divinely inspired person - a guru, if you want. In this way, they secured themselves from two opposite ideas, namely

1. he being a madman (ie. he really believes that he is a guru);
2. he being a cheater and criminal (he knows that he isn't a guru and purposefully makes people believe that he is).

These two ideas would have created dissonance in their minds, 'cause they already had a good impression of Meade. So they rather accepted him as God's representative - and followed his teachings, as people usually do with a God's teachings.


Secondarily, to reinforce their conviction that Meade is a bona fide guru, they also accepted his implicit or explicit statements about faith-based healing as the only possible method, and modern medicine as to be avoided. And they also acted on it. sad.gif

So ends my analysis.
Chanahari
Tapati, there was a fitting thread on GD. "The sin of believing", or something similar was its title. Would you also find it in the archives?
nabadip
QUOTE
I am glad these folks are not my neighbors.


They might be your neighbours... see the BTK (Bind, torture, kill) case. The U.S. is full of sick people. To call them brainwashed is a difficult statement. In that sense most Americans are brainwashed to some extent, some more some less (and in a way all of us are, agreed). See their flag-worship, their believes to live in God's own country, their naive ideas of superiority over the rest of the world...
Tapati
QUOTE (Chanahari @ Apr 27 2005, 08:40 AM)
Tapati, there was a fitting thread on GD. "The sin of believing", or something similar was its title. Would you also find it in the archives?
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Sure, I'll look. I vaguely remember that topic.
Tapati
interesting, I remember that topic and I can't find it in the archives. I seem to remember it used to be in one of the upper sections of GD. I don't seem to have permissions to use their search function--I get an error message when I try, not even a message about nothing matching my criteria.

Anyone remember where it used to be? I've been looking through a lot of sections but haven't seen it. Maybe it was simply removed.
evakurvan
it was called : "the sin of believe," i recall this because of the strange title.
i would look for it now but i am experiencing isp problems!
Oneiros
The Sin of Believe:

http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.php?showtopic=2944
Tapati
Oh, cool, thanks!
Oneiros
Instead of using GD's search function, you can search www.google.com. That is how I found the thread.
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