Hi folks, I've been lurking around here for awhile trying to get a sense of Your Gaudiya Repercussions. I see a lot of the same problems I had after leaving Isckon and though they were not as deep as many they were big enough and all I can offer is they get better with time.

I have a burning question I would like to put forward and that is - do you really think diksha is that important given the current time? I have some very strong opinions on this and I would try to hear any clarification or refutation with an open mind.

In the Padma Purana it is written;

Unless one is initiated by a bona-fide spiritual master in a bonafide and
authentic disciplic succession, the mantra he might have received is without
any effect.

Given that this text was written way before Lord Chaitanya's time, why on earth would such a tenet be paramount to His mission? When He wanted the Holy Name sung in "every town and village" did He mean a mantra that is "without any effect"?

When I joined Krishna consciousness back in '75 I waited 6 months to get initiated. During those months I can rightfully say that the Hare Krishna mantra had lots of effect. In fact I couldn't get enough of it and chanted much more than I did after I was initiated.

But the point is that right now you have the M.A.S.S. (manufactured acaryas of sure shortcomings) and the IRM ritvik movement on the other side (whether or not you are near Sridara or Narayana may be up to your geographics, I don't know). But my argument with the ritviks is this...

..did Srila Prabhupada expressly say in his Final Order, "after I have reached Goloka Vrindaban my eternal wish is to forever take on all the (God knows what) karma of all the "spiritual seekers" that continue to happen upon the ISKCON fold rather than giving it to my dear Tamal Krishna Goswami"?

All sarcasm aside, the real point is that the Hare Krishna mantra IS coming from the correct disciplic sucession. It already has potency for everyone. Given that 5 years ago an entire Ratha-Yatra was stopped over this debate, shouldn't there be more chanting and less initiating?

Peace, Love, and throw out the Padma Purana

"bonafide" is just a translated word, find a meaning that suits your insights

the meaning that suits my understandings is to take "initiation" or "inspiration" from one who is inspired with love. no one has suited this purpose more than ray my mailman or mailperson (to be pc)

there are a few mailpersons here at g.r. to take initiation from

all glories to ray (not related to ray of "ray's pizza")

If the Name is the same as Krishna, then He is there when you chant the mantra.
And the maha-mantra doesn't need the initiation. Caitanya made people chant the mahamantra, wherever he went, and yet he didn't initiate these people - he didn't give out mass initiations, and he knows why.

Of course, all the gurus will try to make us believe that they are an unavoidable part of the process.

The maha-mantra has effect if chanted by an uninitiate (like me ). In the worst case scenario, it will bring "only" a pure guru to lead along; even the most pessimistic ones recognize that. I am of a more optimistic opinion.

Acording to GV theology as presented by Bhaktivinode Thakur in his Panca Samskara, there is much more to initiation (diksha) than what is understood and practised in ISKCON today.

And in essence, it is meant to facilitate your chanting, and assist you to improve it rather than anything else.

If its not serving its purpose, then what's the point?



Technically speaking, mahamantra is not a mantra. Its a holy name.

Mantra consists of three parts - bija, name of the deity and the offering. Eg klim krishnaya namaha. The active ingredient of the mantra is the name.

The above verse is not talking about the maha mantra, its talking about the diksha mantra, which in ISKCON are the gayatri mantras given.

BTW, topics as this are perhaps better discussed in Vaishnava Discussions, News, and links

But yes, thumbs up for more chanting.

Of course he did not say that, even Tamal Krishna could not coerce that direct statement out of him. Tamal was a complex person, apparently sweet and submissive, but could be completely the opposite later, after calculating. You could not ignore his presence. You were bound to respect him. It would seem he used his submissive serving nature to Prabhupada just to be promoted, to get to be the leader and shape things as he saw fit. There are many good examples of this going right up to BR Sridhar Maharaja in 81, where he says , after hearing SM speak expert Krishna katha, that he “is like a calf and SM is like the mother cow whose teats he is suckling”. Give me a break Tamal, cause how long after that did you pronounce that SM was a threat to ISKCON’s goals? Whose goals?

Prabhupada did not instigate the subject of his successors, but it was brought up to him in a most sick state by another. He named some who he thought could be Ritvit for him, on his behalf, since he was sick. Rikvit means on someone’s behalf since he cannot be personally present, but his will is there. For someone alive and in the world. The departed are not called Ritviks to my knowledge. So Prabhupada then was not able to go personally or do his regular services. He had previously declined publicly to name a particular successor:

Quoting BTG December-January 1978

“When asked who would succeed him as the leader of the Krsna consciousness movement, Srila Prabhupada replied: “All of my disciples will take the legacy. If you want, you can also take it. Sacrifice everything. I—one—may soon pass away. But they are hundreds, and this movement will increase. It s not that I’ll give an order: ‘Here is the next leader.’ Anyone who follows the previous leadership is a leader. I don’t make any distinction between Indian and European. All my disciples are leaders... as much as they follow purely. If you want to follow, then you can also lead. But you don’t want to follow. ‘Leader’ means one who is a first-class disciple. Evam parampara-praptam. One who is perfectly following. Our instruction is, guru­mukha-padma-vakya. Do you know this? ara na kariha mane asa (My only desire - is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from the lotus-mouth of my spiritual master’). To become a leader is not very difficult, provided one is prepared to follow the instructions of the bonafide guru.”

A person will naturally go to whom their faith is restored and protected, take shelter of such a person and embrace his concepts, adopt his views of KC. No geographical limits are there in spiritually, there are no zones, just the material world and the conceptual world of love and faith, even to serve as a simple peon there, even menial service. We appreciate that a dedicated Vaishnava had offered us to serve Krishna and that we could play some small part in fulfilling the desire of Sri Caitanya in distributing His Holy Names to everyone. We could perceive that it was incredibly increasing in those days with no obstacles, so long as Prabhupada was at the helm. But how did the obstacles appear and why?
Prabhupada was able to utilize all persons, see their prospects for Krishna’s service, particularly distribute the scriptures and messages of Sri Krishna Chaitanya. Even those who later turned out to be rascals, he still engaged in Krishna’s service. So you remember the sweet taste ansd simple life of living in our Guru’s ashrama, the temples, and happily and enthusiastically living to serve? What a happy and simple life that was.
If only the division of the KC movement did not occur and localities thrived independently. That was indicated as Prabhupada’s desire previously. No center but the local centers, Krishna as center, and we could have gone on, as was our capacity and desire even then. But that possibility was taken away for whatever reason and we live a life of separation.
The actual spiritual master is not just a physical presence; he is seen to be personally distributing consciousness of Krishna. Why then is he called spiritual master? All men have physical bodies. He is rightly seen as serving consciousness of Krishna. His words and the devotional directions, previously unrevealed to us but by his will, clearly establishes the finest part of his being. That is spiritual master, identical and different from Krishna, our reliable link, who is always engaged in Krishna’s service, fulfilling his Guru’s desire as he reminded us all daily…

And remembering the subject we came to believe that knowing Whom nothing remains to separately be known, no greater attainment to be attained. That concept of life is called sraddha, the criterion of being the consciousness of Guru and Gauranga, that, we have heard and believed and not reached the limit of:
atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih
sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah
"No one can understand the transcendental nature of the name, form, quality and pastimes of Sri Krsna through his material senses. Only when one becomes spiritually saturated by transcendental service to the Lord are the transcendental name, form, quality and pastimes of the Lord revealed to him." (Padma Purana)

So shortcomings become visible when one cannot see the transcendental nature within the heart of a spiritualist, one who represents their faith. How horrible that we so quickly went from devotees of a pure devotee servant of Krishna, to having that personal relationship eclipsed, constrained by a higher being, an institution…ISKCON, ruled by the GBC, voting on the correct application and meaning of the transcendental nature of Krishna. Later.

According to all likelihood parts of the Puranas are no older than just before Caitanya's time. Some have existed for at the most 1500 years but were added to for over a thousand years after that by competing sects, incorporation of other systems of thought, myths to explain the new forms of thought and practice, and perhaps some divine revelation here and there

Welcome to the GR community ras, the forum that almost never sleeps, well maybe a little bit more lately than usual, but it’s great to read your post and your burning question.

Where there is smoke there’s fire and burning questions are very much like the dancing flames that are so full of life and wonder!

Your question on diksha and what the Padma Purana has to say about a spiritual master and the effect of a mantra received at initiation from an bonafide one, as opposed to the temporary “oh, but I really enjoy the feel of silk on my thighs” ones, would most likely pertain to someone who still believes and practices the tradition, otherwise the traditional authority and value associated with these terms lose a lot of value in terms of representing an ultimate source of truth that should be lived by.

If one wants to live the Gaudiya Vaisnava life, then indeed this is a complex issue in these trying postmodern times we live in, for it was a lot simpler in 1970 to figure out who to believe and follow if indeed this was ones spiritual calling. Like most faiths, once the founder or person who brought this tradition to the forefront passes away, it’s up for grabs and many people rush to the forefront to lead, reform or start new off-shoot movements.

It sounds like you were initiated by Prabhupada in the early 70’s, so you know the history and changes ISKCON has gone through. If this is your spiritual path and you are sure of that, then who can tell you the worth of your chanting or power of your mantra’s? I know there are groups and reformers out there that would like to tell you those things, but I do believe at some point we have to take responsibility for our own material and spiritual lives and quit depending on others for validation and authenticity. In my estimation, temple years were educational years, for better or worse, and from there we mature and lead our lives the best we can, choosing to stay either devotees, partial devotees, former devotees and anything in between or sitting a few feet outside that description that rhymes with ism or running as hard and fast as we can away from it.

If you believe in the name of Krsna, then pick a succession you believe in and enjoy the ride while hanging on to your neck beads and chanting until your cheeks turn reddish saffron and your tongue bleeds the bliss of your faith. Forget about Final Orders, controversies, Purana’s that stroke the mind and stiffen the heart while contemplating the latest news of which latest sanyassi finally remembered that his penis had more functions than just being in the business of relieving itself! Life is an adventure full of twists and turns that makes for a wild adventurous ride, be it as a devotee or not, so welcome to one of few places on earth where you can come and discuss the institutions un-discussible’s and still walk away feeling worthy of being in a body that is still trying to figure it all out with a smile instead of a frown.

Just wanted to say how much I appreciate everyone taking the time to write their insights. I thought all the responses had some good points (even babu's ). My conclusion thus far is that since the Final Order seems more or less forced by others (as it is muddled) rather than with force it is of minor significance to the spiritual development of future seekers. By that I mean it simply cannot be interpreted to have been delivered with the kind of force or passion as Prabhupada's other desires, like creating Ratha-Yatra in the West, and certainly not delivered with the sense of urgency you can easily hear in Prabhupada's early lectures in NY where his voice would go up very high.

But why should it have been? It has already been demonstrated that the parampara cannot be forced. And what is the point of pushing the idea of diksha when the only hope we ever had of following was when we had sadhu-sanga with a real sense of unity and pride in our movement?

Thanks again, ya'all may have just inspired me to pick up my japa bag for the first time in six weeks (sometime within the next six weeks), by then I'll probably have a bunch of other questions.

I'm pondering the irony that GR can sometimes inspire people to chant japa--I'm sure that would amaze the ISKCONites who think of us all as servants of maya.