evakurvan
May 2 2005, 09:38 PM
This is by Han Shan (618 - 906) who lived in the cold T'ien T'ai mountains of far eastern China. His isolated cave-hut was a long one day's hike from the Kuo-ch'ing monastery.
The path to Han-shan's place is laughable,
A path, but no sign of cart or horse.
Converging gorges - hard to trace their twists
Jumbled cliffs - unbelievably rugged.
A thousand grasses bend with dew,
A hill of pines hums in the wind.
And now I've lost the shortcut home,
Body asking shadow, how do you keep up?
evakurvan
May 2 2005, 10:04 PM
In the third month when the silkworms were still small
The girls had time to go and gather flowers,
Along the wall they played with butterflies,
Down by the water they pelted the old frog.
Into gauze sleeves they poured the ripe plums;
With their gold hairpins they dug up bamboo sprouts.
With all that glitter of outward loveliness
How can Cold Mountain hope to compete?
Han-Shan, 750
Translated by Arthur Waley
evakurvan
May 2 2005, 10:25 PM
People ask the way to Cold Mountain.
Cold Mountain? There is no road that goes through.
Even in summer the ice doesn't melt;
The rising sun blurs in swirling fog.
How did I make it?
My heart's not the same as yours.
If your heart was like mine
You'd get it and be right here.
Alternate Translation of the Last Four Verses
How can you hope to get there by aping me?
Your heart and mine are not alike.
If your heart were the same as mine,
Then you would journey right here.
Han-Shan
evakurvan
May 3 2005, 01:02 AM
I wanted a good place to settle:
Cold Mountain would be safe.
Light wind in a hidden pine -
Listen close - the sound gets better.
Under it a gray haired man
Mumbles along reading Huang and Lao.
For ten years I haven't gone back home
I've even forgotten the way by which I came.
Han-Shan
Satyabhama
May 4 2005, 01:11 AM
I love these, they are very beautiful, thank you evakurvan
evakurvan
May 4 2005, 04:41 AM

!!!
To resume, this one reminds me of a paste and post by Talasiga from long ago:
Srila Prabhupada:
QUOTE
This is my earnest desire. Since you [Shreedhar Maharaaj]
could not go around the world and preach, at least stay there
and people will come to you. I shall make that arrangement.
If you stay, then it will be helpful to me also.
Sometimes I need to consult with someone and there is no one. There is no one that I can consult.
I feel this deficiency very greatly.
Talasiga:
QUOTE
There are many who think that progress in spiritual life
is marked by a self sufficiency that makes us impervious
to the soul's longing for friendship.
My initial post here sets the ground to challenge this.
I have lived at Cold Mountain
These thirty long years.
Yesterday I called on friends and family:
More than half had gone to the Yellow Springs.
Slowly consumed, like fire down a candle;
Forever flowing, like a passing river.
Now, morning, I face my lone shadow
And my eyes are bleared with tears.
Han-Shan
evakurvan
May 13 2005, 11:07 AM
For twenty years I've sought the Other.
Now letting go I fly out of the pit.
What use oneness of mind and body?
These days I only sing.
Keso Shogaku
evakurvan
May 13 2005, 12:43 PM
I once was a Baptist and on each Sunday morn
I'd be in church praying just as sure as you're born.
We'd sing there like angels in sweet harmony
But sin and salvation are no longer for me.
Cause now I'm a Buddhist I chant my mantra each day
But I miss that good singing in the old Gospel way.
Now my old friends don't like me since I shaved my head
and they all talk about me as if I were dead.
My good old Zen buddies they think I'm ok,
But I can't get them singing more than one note a day.
Mark Graham
evakurvan
May 13 2005, 01:00 PM
QUOTE
For twenty years I've sought the Other.
Now letting go I fly out of the pit.
What use oneness of mind and body?
These days I only sing.
Two come about because of One,
but don't cling to the One either!
Seng-ts'an, 600
Hsin-Hsin-Ming: Inscription on Trust in the Mind
Translated by Burton Watson
evakurvan
May 14 2005, 12:28 AM
At the sound of the bell
in the silent night,
I wake from my dream
in this dreamworld of ours.
Gazing at the reflection
of the moon in a clear pool,
I see, beyond my form,
my real form.
-Kojisei
Tapati
May 14 2005, 07:39 AM
QUOTE (evakurvan @ May 13 2005, 05:28 PM)
At the sound of the bell
in the silent night,
I wake from my dream
in this dreamworld of ours.
Gazing at the reflection
of the moon in a clear pool,
I see, beyond my form,
my real form.
-KojiseiBeautiful! Thanks!
Bhaktavasya
May 18 2005, 08:52 PM
Thankyou also for the beautiful poems and inclusion of Talasiga's commentary
Satyabhama
May 19 2005, 04:21 PM
Is there any more?
Tapati
May 22 2005, 09:55 AM
I found a site that has links to major Buddhist Sutras:
http://www4.bayarea.net/~mtlee/I thought that readers of this topic might find it useful.
evakurvan
May 22 2005, 03:20 PM
Hanshan wrote 307 poemsongs. There are many translators, Red Pine probably the best one. The Red Pine book is called, The Collected Songs of Cold Mountain.
Pictured as a recluse, in his poems he often speaks of lonelyness in the mountains, where there is no one to talk to, he laments on trying to "talk philosophy with the white clouds," still Han Shan had two fellow recluse friends Feng-Kan and Shih-Teh.
Here is how one person describes Hanshan.
"His features looked worn out, and his body was covered in clothes all in tatters. He wore a head gear made of birch-bark and his feet carried a pair of sabots too large for them. He frequently visited the Kuo-ch'ing monastery at T'ien-tai, where he was fed with whatever remnants there were from the monk's table. He would walk quietly up and down through the corridors, occasionally talking aloud to himself or to the air. When he was driven out, he would clap his hands and laughing loudly would leave the monastery" (D. T. Suzuki, Essays in Zen Buddhism).
evakurvan
May 22 2005, 03:48 PM
"Feng Kan, also known as Big Stick was something of a renegade monk at Kuoching Temple, which Han Shan would often visit near his home at Cold Cliff. According to legend, Big Stick showed up one day at the temple gate on the back of a tiger, took up residence in the temple library, refused to shave his head, and came and went as he liked. Whenever he was asked about Buddhism, he would answer “Whatever.” (

)
Hanshan came specially to see me,
Shih-Teh too, a rare visitor.
We spoke unaffectedly and without reserve of the Mind,
How vast and free the Great Emptinesss,
Each thing containing within itself all things.
Feng Kan (Big Stick), 750, Edited
Zen and Zen Classics, R. H. Blyth.
Clambering up the Cold Mountain path,
The Cold Mountain trail goes on and on:
The long gorge choked with scree and boulders,
The wide creek, the mist-blurred grass.
The moss is slippery, though there's been no rain
The pine sings, but there's no wind.
Who can leap the world's ties
And sit with me among the white clouds?Han Shan Han Shan was also known as Cold Mountain. There is a saying that goes, whoever has Cold Mountain’s poems is better off with those than with all the sutras!!
evakurvan
May 22 2005, 04:50 PM
I laugh at my failing strength in old age,
Yet still dote on pines and crags, to wander there in solitude.
How I regret that in all these past years until today,
I've let things run their course like an unanchored boat.
Shih-te, 750
Translated by James Hargett
Han Shan and Shih-te "were a shabby, dirty pair, half madmen, half hermits, talking and laughing loudly and reciting poems. One day they disappeared before the eyes of the monks and were not seen again. People searched for them and came upon a cave where Han Shan had lived. Poems were written all over the walls of the cave. According to legend, the poems were copied down, and we have today a collection called the Cold Mountain Poems" (Hekiganroku: Blue Cliff Records, Case 34. Translated by Katsuki Sekida). Shih-te is often pictured with a broom, and Han Shan with a scroll. These represent two of many paths to enlightenment - honest labor and scriptural studies.
Here is a poem that accompanies a stone carving of Han Shan and Shih-te, credited to Han Shan. Translated by Mary Jacob.
Ha ha ha.
If I show joy and ease my troubled mind,
Worldly troubles into joy transform.
Worry for others--it does no good in the end.
If husband and wife have joy, it's worthy of song.
What guest and host can bear a lack of joy?
Both high and low, in joy, lose their woe before long.
Ha ha ha
evakurvan
May 22 2005, 05:21 PM
I sit and gaze on this highest peak of all;
Wherever I look there is distance without end.
I am all alone and no one knows I am here,
A lonely moon is mirrored in the cold pool.
Down in the pool there is not really a moon;
The only moon is in the sky above.
I sing to you this one piece of song;
But in the song there is not any Zen.
- Han-Shan, 750
Translated by Arthur Waley
in Zen Poems
evakurvan
May 22 2005, 05:33 PM
Here are two poems by the Chinese Zen monk known as Stonehouse. He abandoned life at the Zen temples in China to live at the tops of a mountain in a secluded world. Some fellow monks gave him some paper and asked him to write down his "thoughts." His Mountain Poems are the result (Abrams).
Not one care in mind all year
I find enough joy every day in my hut
and after a meal and a pot of strong tea
I sit on a rock by a pond and count fish
from The Zen Works of Stonehouse
evakurvan
May 22 2005, 06:04 PM
The stream is clear enough to see pebbles
my ungabled hut sits among vines
gibbons howl late at night when the moon sets
few guests get past the moss below the cliffs
bamboos in the yard bend with spring snow
plum trees on the ridge are gnarled by winter nights
the solitude of this path isn't old or new
grinding a brick on a rock is a waste.
from The Zen Works of Stonehouse
evakurvan
May 22 2005, 06:11 PM
Dense fog and clouds you can't push apart
suddenly appear and suddenly depart
clever people can wear themselves out
sun lights the rocks the same as before.
from The Zen Works of Stonehouse
babu
May 23 2005, 12:48 AM
Buddhism is cool. I think everyone in the world could be buddies if Buddhist understanding was understood.
evakurvan
Oct 7 2005, 03:27 AM
By Lin-Chi, Buddhist monk, died 867.
If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha.
If you meet the patriarchs or the arhats on your way, kill them too.
Bodhidharma was an old bearded barbarian.
Nirvana and Bodhi are dead stumps to tie your donkey to.
The sacred teachings are only lists of ghosts, sheets of paper fit for wiping the pus from your boils.
evakurvan
Dec 11 2005, 02:35 AM
Thus Nagarjuna said:
When you have an itch, you scratch.
But not to itch at all
Is better than any amount of scratching.
Open Mind
Dec 12 2005, 07:50 AM
The Human Route
Coming empty-handed, going empty-handed -- that is human.
When you are born, where do you come from?
When you die, where do you go?
Life is like a floating cloud which appears.
Death is like a floating cloud which disappears.
The floating cloud itself originally does not exist.
Life and death, coming and going, are also like that.
But there is one thing which always remains clear.
It is pure and clear, not depending on life and death.
Then what is the one pure and clear thing?
Zen Master Seung Sahn (1927-2004)
www.kwanumzen.com
Abhi
Dec 12 2005, 05:17 PM
Milarepa sang:
In the Bardo state the wanderer
Is in Alaya; it stays nowhere.
Driven by one's own sorrow,
It enters a womb unknown.
Therein it feels like a fish,
Caught into crevice of rock,
Sleeping in blood red and pus yellow,
In all discharges it must pillow.
Crammed in filth, it suffers pain,
From bad karma one is to gain,
Though remembering past lives,
It cannot count four or five.
Now scorched by heat,
Now cold it does meet.
For nine months it remains,
In the womb with all pains,
From womb by pliers as if pulled out,
Head is squeez'd but safety is nought,
Like being thrown into a bramble,
When it bears all of a-tremble,
Its body on mother's lap with sorrow,
It feels gripped by a hawk like a sparrow.
When his body blood and dirt is cleansed,
Like flayed alive its pains increas'd,
When umbilical cord is being cut,
It feels as if the spine does jut,
When wrapped in the cradle,
It feels bound by a girdle.
He who realizes not the truth of non-born
Never can escape from birth to be grown.
Open Mind
Dec 12 2005, 06:30 PM
Milarepa's Song of Mahamudra
At the time I'm meditating on Mahamudra
I rest without struggle in actual being
I rest relaxed in free-from-wandering space
I rest in a clarity-cradled-in-emptiness space
I rest in awareness and this is blissful space
I rest unruffled in non-conceptual space
In variety's space I rest in equipose
And resting like this is native mind itself
A wealth of certainty manifests endlessly
Without even trying, self-luminous mind is at work
Not stuck expecting results, I'm doing O.K.
No dualism, no hopes and fears, Ho Hey!
Delusion as Wisdom, now that's being cheerful and bright
Delusion transformed into Wisdom now that's all right!
Abhi
Dec 12 2005, 07:04 PM
Though grief in the Ocean of Samsara
Is preached, and its renunciation is urged,
Few people are really convinced
And renounce it with determination.
Though knowing that life will ever turn to death,
Few feel uneasy, or think that it will end.
Though their life is blessed with good prospects,
Few can practice abstention for a day.
Though the Bliss of Liberation is expounded
And Samsara's pains are stressed,
Few can really enter the Dharma Gate.
Though the profound Pith-Instructions
Of the Whispered Lineage are given without stint, few
Without fail can practice them.
Though the teaching of Mahamudra is expounded
And the Pointing-out demonstration is exercised,
Few can really understand the Essence of Mind.
To the hermit's life and the Guru's wish
One can always aspire, but few
Can put them into practice.
The perfect, skillful path of Naropa
May be shown, without concealment,
But those who can really follow it
Are very few. My dear lad,
You should follow in my footsteps
If in this life you want to do
Something that is worthwhile.
-- Jetsun Milarepa
Maryada
Dec 12 2005, 09:00 PM
I fall
The self meets the earth
Silence meets the edge of pain
Pain meets the edge of insight
Insight meets the edge of reason
Reason meets the edge of knowing
I know I fell
Again
I get up
A point of light brighter than the Moon
Moves my being to realization
I must buy a cane
-- Zen Master Aday Ram
evakurvan
Dec 12 2005, 09:41 PM
open mind, old friend,
Delusion as Wisdom, now that's being cheerful and bright
Delusion transformed into Wisdom now that's all right!
haha so refreshed to see a Tibetan say this.
Abhi,
post #28, I think everyone needs to hear more of this to be free, it is lacking, and less talk about the impossibility of doing anything like that in "this age."
Abhi
Dec 12 2005, 10:17 PM
QUOTE (evakurvan @ Dec 12 2005, 03:41 PM)
Abhi,
post #28, I think everyone needs to hear more of this to be free, it is lacking, and less talk about the impossibility of doing anything like that in "this age."
Yes, 'impossible' is a good excuse for having no idea, being unable to instruct people in self realization. As Milarepa said in another of his poems/songs:
"It is difficult to meet success in the effort to insure one's own spiritual welfare, even without seeking to benefit others. If you seek another's spiritual welfare before attaining your own, it would be like a helplessly drowning man trying to save another man in the same predicament. Therefore, one should not be too anxious and hasty in setting out to save others before one has, oneself, realized Truth in Its fullness. That would be like the blind leading the blind. As long as the sky endures, there will be no dearth of sentient beings for you to serve, and your opportunity for such service will come. Till it does, I exhort each one of you to keep but one resolve: namely, to attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all living creatures."
evakurvan
Dec 13 2005, 02:09 AM
Open Mind I think you might enjoy this:
(From your profile)
QUOTE
Yes, life without sweet dreams, pink promises and fantasies might be depressing sometimes, but I decided to give up spiritual drugs forever. I prefer being sad and depressed than getting high on promises of different imaginary heavens.
" The shadow of clouds, friendship, the beauty of youth, wealth, these last for a short time. Shun them ruthlessly.
Is not the company of young maharanis with tender waists and lotus-like eyes dear as life itself, very pleasing? Yet wise people retired into forests kicking all these things as worthless as straw. "
evakurvan
Dec 13 2005, 02:38 AM
Vigilance is the path to life eternal, and thoughtlessness the path to death. The vigilant do not die, the thoughtless are as dead already.
-Buddha
evakurvan
Dec 13 2005, 03:45 AM
Q. What is the principle concern of the one wearing the Buddhist robes?
A. Not to deceive himself.
- Joshu
Open Mind
Dec 13 2005, 07:31 AM
QUOTE (evakurvan @ Dec 12 2005, 11:41 PM)
open mind, old friend,
Delusion as Wisdom, now that's being cheerful and bright
Delusion transformed into Wisdom now that's all right!
haha so refreshed to see a Tibetan say this.
Dear Eva,
I myself was more than surprised when after several years of different preliminary practices I received some teachings considered "very high and secret" in Tibetan Buddhism. These teachings were exactly the same I learned in Zen many years before. Even the metaphors pointing to the nature of mind are the same. The only difference seems to be that Tibetans prefer the gradual path, while in Zen one can get the ultimate teachings very quickly, of course it is another thing what one can make out of them. Whatever, I guess I needed to run around the world for years looking for my own head before I realized it has always been there with me.
evakurvan
Dec 13 2005, 07:48 AM
Old friend,
You know your avatar is the popular symbol for zen buddhists.
It is true Zen and Tibetans share many sutras in common. If I had to point to differences, I would say Tibetan takes "samsara is nirvana" to a more concrete extreme. Also Tibetan is more akin to Gaudiyaism. All of the colourful ornamentation, focus on mantras, big focus on guru-disciple relationship, focus on deities, visualizations, and the tantric element. This exists in way lesser form in Zen, or not at all. Zen is super minimalist you do not have all of these reference points, symbols and supports to hold you up to fix your attention on, you are left alone with just your mind facing a blank wall.
The thing with Gaudiyaism though is this meditation of exstatic chanting, dancing, and instrument playing, glorificaton of "exstatic symptoms," tears, goosebumps, and extreme emotional states. I can't say this exists in any Buddhism and would probably be seen by most Buddhists as antithetical to meditation and as no meditation at all. Do you miss it?
Open Mind
Dec 13 2005, 08:19 AM
You are absolutely right. Tibetan Buddhism is more like a religion, there are long pujas with music, long recitations of texts, the feeling of sacredness, recitation of mantras, etc. Zen can be compared to Dzogchen, which is often considered the highest peak of Tibetan Buddhism, beyond religions, beyond everything. Just like in Zen, in Dzogchen the main practice is simply being in the state of contemplation, being in the naked state of presence, like a mirror. Ultimately all Buddhist schools aim to this point, but some approach it directly, some gradually. In Dzogchen the Adi Buddha (original Buddha) is depicted as a completely naked, blue-colored person, sitting in meditation. This is of course a symbol, a symbol of seeing everything with naked presence, seeing things as they are, without projecting our ideas upon phenomena. Blue in this case represents the all pervading space, the cloudless, clear and luminous sky, another symbol for the nature of mind. As you say, Zen (and Dzogchen) prefer this direct approach. For some it may seem rigid or boring. That is why there are so many paths, we can choose according to our preferences.
As for whether I miss Vaisnava dancing and singing in ecstasy, well, not at all. And this is in no way denigration of Vaisnavism, I am very happy when I see people finding their way in this kind of spiritual approach. Last year a Gaudiya Math sannyasi friend of mine invited me to their farm community. I know many of the devotees there because once upon a time I was part of that community myself. I gladly accepted the invitation. There was some class, then all the people stood up and started a very loud and - as you would say - ecstatic kirtan, jumping up and down etc. I decided to remain in the room but very soon I just felt I cannot. I simply had to leave and I took a walk in the forest during the kirtan. All this jumping and shouting felt so alien, so strange, not easy to explain... Maybe I am too old for that, I don't know. But interestingly, I remember that even in my old Vaisnava days, when they did these very loud kirtans, I often went out to the shore of a lake nearby, sat down and just watched the water. So perhaps this makes me a born mayavadi (our favorite expression, ain't, Eva?).
Open Mind
Dec 13 2005, 09:28 AM
From the teachings of Zen Master Kyong Ho (1849-1912):
"Just examine and carefully observe your mind at all times. What does
this which is now seeing, hearing and thinking look like? Does this have
any form or not? It this big or small? Is this yellow or green? Is this
bright or dark?
Examine and observer this matter carefully. Let your examination and
observation become like a mouse-catching cat; or like an egg-laying hen;
or like a desperately hungry, old, crafty mouse gnawing a hole in a rice
bag. Let your examination and observation be focused at one point and do
not forget it. Keep it before you by raising doubt and by questioning
yourself. Do not this this doubt go away while you are doing chores or
the like. Do not let your question (doubt) escape from you even while
you are not doing anything special. By eagerly and sincerely practicing
in this manner, finally, there will be the moment of awakening to you
own Mind."
evakurvan
Dec 13 2005, 09:29 AM
Openmind I don't think there is any such thing as born again mayavadi. I think once you get a real sense of mayavadi, you are stuck with always being a mayavadi, (whether you like it or not). And if you ever doubt that for a moment then you are only temporarily deceiving yourself haha.
Open Mind
Dec 13 2005, 09:30 AM
QUOTE (evakurvan @ Dec 13 2005, 11:29 AM)
open mind I don't think there is any such thing as born again mayavadi I think once you really understand mayavadi, you are stuck with always being a mayavadi, and if you ever doubt that for a moment then you are only temporarily deceiving yourself haha
Right, once a mayavadi, always a mayavadi.
evakurvan
Dec 13 2005, 12:52 PM
I have walked this earth
And watched people
It doesnt scare me at all
I can be sincere
And say I like them
It doesnt scare me at all
I want to go on a mountain-top
With a radio and good batteries
And play a joyous tune and
Free the human race
From suffering
It doesnt scare me at all
I'm no f*cking buddhist
But this is enlightenment
The less room you give me
The more space I've got
It doesnt scare me at all
By Bjork.
Abhi
Dec 13 2005, 05:07 PM
QUOTE (Open Mind @ Dec 13 2005, 03:28 AM)
From the teachings of Zen Master Kyong Ho (1849-1912):
This sounds very similar to Swami Venktaesananda's teachings, from his commentaries on Patanjali's Yoga Sutras and Yoga Vasishtha.
It's interesting that many schools agree on this end goal of pure "naked state of presence".
Here is another one on the subject, from Milarepa:
How to Settle Your Mind
How to settle your own mind at rest,
The secret lies in letting go,
Making no strain, doing nothing,
Like sleeping child you should do so.
Like calm ocean without waves,
Like a brilliant lamp without wind,
Rest your mind in peace.
Like corpse without pride,
Rest it steadfastly.
Like sea without tide,
Free from any kind of grind.
Do you know how thought arises?
Like dream is without substance,
Like the vast sunless heaven,
Moons seen in outer distance,
Like the rainbow of maya,
We could not find certain source.
When the light of wisdom shines,
They disappear, no more trace.
Do you know how to cope with thoughts?
Try to see the versatile clouds,
Yet from sky they are not apart,
Try to see the waves of the sea,
Yet from sea they are not apart.
Try to see the heavy thick fog,
Yet from air it is not apart.
Thus the frantic runs in nature.
Yet from nature it is not apart.
He who can weigh the awareness,
Will know mind is rising in breath.
He who seeks sneaking thoughts like thieves,
Will know to watch this subtle mischief.
He who finds the thought running outside,
Knows the simile of dove and boat in tide.
Do you know how to act and comprehend?
Like a bold lion, a drunken elephant,
Shadow in mirror and lotus in mud?
Thus you may act the same yet different.
Do you know how to get the attainment,
Dharmakaya gained in non-discernment,
Sambhogakaya through the blissfulness,
Nirmanakaya—one ray of Enlightenment,
Sahajakaya through the innateness.
Of these four ones I have the achievement.
Open Mind
Dec 15 2005, 11:45 AM
It Will Pass
A student went to his meditation teacher and said, "My meditation is horrible! I feel so distracted, or my legs ache, or I'm constantly falling asleep. It's just horrible!"
"It will pass," the teacher said matter-of-factly.
A week later, the student came back to his teacher. "My meditation is wonderful! I feel so aware, so peaceful, so alive! It's just wonderful!'
"It will pass," the teacher replied matter-of-factly.
Open Mind
Dec 18 2005, 12:31 PM
The death poem of Zen Master Kyong Ho:
The moon of the mind is clear and round -
Its light absorbs everything.
When mind and clarity disappear,
What... is... this?
Uttering these words he closed his eyes and died.
Open Mind
Dec 19 2005, 06:32 AM
Memories
Flee and
Are no more.
All are empty dreams
Devoid of meaning.
Violate the reality of things
And babble about
"God" and "the Buddha"
And you will never find
the true Way.
Ikkyu
Maryada
Dec 19 2005, 04:35 PM
The world moves
The world moves me
The world moves me to act
I act
I act to move
I act to move the world
Nothing big and nothing small
Moves without harmony
-- Zen Master Aday Ram
evakurvan
Dec 20 2005, 07:22 AM
Even if a Buddhist saint tells you that 2 + 2 = 5, the Buddhist saint is not telling you the truth. And even if an angry demon tells you that 2 + 2 = 4, you should know that the angry demon is telling you the truth.
- Paraphrase from Dogen
Homer
Dec 20 2005, 08:10 AM
QUOTE (evakurvan @ Dec 20 2005, 03:22 PM)
Even if a Buddhist saint tells you that 2 + 2 = 5, the Buddhist saint is not telling you the truth. And even if an angry demon tells you that 2 + 2 = 4, you should know that the angry demon is telling you the truth.
- Paraphrase from Dogen
Saints lie to save you and demons tell the truth to ensnare.
I have heard that one before.
So, if saints are not truthful, then it must follow that other virtues are compromised by them, all for the good.
And if demons speak the truth to lead us astray, then they probably utilize other virtues to propagate evil.
Therefore, it is better to act without regard for proper or improper - only do what is suitable for the moment.
evakurvan
Dec 20 2005, 08:18 AM
better believe in what you see as true and be led astray
than to be saved by the most beautiful lie
better to compromise all virtues and say a truth
than have all virtues and say no truth
Open Mind
Dec 20 2005, 08:27 AM
QUOTE (evakurvan @ Dec 20 2005, 10:18 AM)
better believe in what you see as true and be led astray
than to be saved by the most beautiful lie
better to compromise all virtues and say a truth
than have all virtues and say no truth
Better drink my cofee and eat my croissant.