If someone's faith can be broken, that means his faith was not based on real experiences but on wishful thinking and imagination. If someone's faith is shaken or destroyed, it is time they started out again in the search for the truth. One can never be too old to start the path again if one's path turned out to be a dead-end. Do you agree?

If someone has faith in a thing that is false, then they by definition have false faith.

I agree.

No, their eternal faith is covered by temporary material qualities, like smoke covering fire.

One may bring another person away from believing his/her real experiences too... his/her faith was based on real experiences, and now believes something that is entirely made up. Many of us experienced this, or not?

No. If our faith can be shaken, that means our "experiences" were mere imagination and fantasy. Sad but true.

Anyway, I could vomit (you hear me Dayalu?) while reading this mean fighting between members. I am ready to admit that GV is the BEST if both parties chill out and stop biting each others' asses.

What IS faith anyway? I have never seen it defined without circular reasoning. I am not sure why that would have to be so. Perhaps it's a mystery, acintya? Who knows, even God might be involved...

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz around the honey jar Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I don't know much about faith, but I like nice boobs. Is this an answer to your question?

Conviction without proof and certainty, maybe?

Faith I think of a kind of vehicle that can be used to traverse the world of doubts.
Still I think doubts are needed, otherwise it easily
turns into blind fanatism.

One a side note, one of the austounding thing I recognized in ISKCON that faith appeared to be pretty rare!
I don't call fanatic following faith.

When my guru (Harikesa swami) fell down, it could be observed that many appeared to loose faith. I think it was those who did not have any faith, or had weak faith, who felt lost. Strong faith survives even such things.

maybe it is because you are demoniac karmi?

QUOTE (Prisni @ Jan 4 2007, 09:52 PM)

QUOTE (ePiTau @ Jan 4 2007, 09:00 PM)

What IS faith anyway? I have never seen it defined without circular reasoning. I am not sure why that would have to be so. Perhaps it's a mystery, acintya? Who knows, even God might be involved...

Conviction without proof and certainty, maybe?

Faith I think of a kind of vehicle that can be used to traverse the world of doubts.
Still I think doubts are needed, otherwise it easily
turns into blind fanatism.

One a side note, one of the austounding thing I recognized in ISKCON that faith appeared to be pretty rare!
I don't call fanatic following faith.

When my guru (Harikesa swami) fell down, it could be observed that many appeared to loose faith. I think it was those who did not have any faith, or had weak faith, who felt lost. Strong faith survives even such things.

Is doubt considered to be the opposite of faith? I have to think about that.

Faith to my way of thinking has to be backed up experience. Like the faith we have that the light will come on when we flick the switch...

I am still waiting for a reply to what faith actually is. It is very mysterious, indeed.

Where there are boobs there must be an owner of the boobs. That's where it gets complicated. "Knowing well to whom they belong..." this answer is wrong.

Well, if you are referring to the Isopanishad, then I suppose your idea is that one should not take more boobs than one needs. The rest (of the boobs) should be left to SPoG.

So, one breast for you, the other one for SPoG?

Outside of being the name of one of my early girlfriends, Faith seems to be this essence of self trust that lies deep inside ourselves. This is a trust that allows us as individuals to discover deeper truths that can be relied on as we traverse the complexities of living a life on this planet.

Faith has a positive power to it when it is not linked to a dogmatic religious interpretation or divisiveness. It has a foundation of compassion and love for ourselves and others. It uncovers our connection to others and does not designate anyone as separate and apart.

It does not have to require a belief system or even a connection to a God, though it does not have to deny it either. This Faith is not a commodity that we have or do not have, it is an inner quality that unfolds as we learn to trust our own deepest experiences.

No matter what we encounter in life, it is faith that enables us to try again, to trust and love again . In times of great suffering, it is faith that enables us to relate to the present moment in such a way that we can go on, we can move forward, instead of becoming lost in despair. Faith links our present-day experience, whether wonderful or terrible, to the underlying pulse of life itself.

Many people who proclaim to be true believers in a one true faith, even Gaudiya Vaisnava’s, use faith as a model of submission to an external authority and tradition. This seems to slice cleanly between those who belong to a select group and those who do not. This fuels their own embittered agendas, while fanatics cast what they call faith into hatred and anger towards those who differ. This attempt equates faith with doctrine, which then goes into arguments about terminology and concepts, which distracts us from what faith is all about in its essence and simplicity—a trusting self knowledge that allows us to make choices and discover deeper truths we can rely on. So Zanardi, I think your right, it is actually pretty mysterious stuff that cannot be bottled and made the same for us all!!

I think a description of faith from some purport or scripture for faith is absolute trust in something sublime.

Yes it can Bhatavasya, when it is your choice and it rings true with the essence of your internal trust of what is truth. The problems arise when one uses the purports and scriptures to lecture others on what is the absolute spiritual truth and how that now should also be their faith.

the problem with bhatavaskaya's definition is faith is just accepting an unverifiable assumption and so if i say this strawberry has gold on the inside, then give me 5000 dollars

is the pyramid of maslow relvant here?

Faith, trust, belief, hope and all, very difficult to make exact distinctions between them.

Happened to me. Looked up "faith" in some electronic Websters, and the thing had the nerve to define "faith is the firm conviction that..." Ach so, dachte ich, alles klar!

Here is a good example of faith.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070105/wl_csm/oganges


"VARANASI, INDIA - An old man in a loincloth squats on the banks of the sacred Ganges River scrubbing his clothes. Nearby, sewage gushes from a pipe as water buffaloes contentedly wallow in the river's murky waters.

Upstream, a bright-eyed woman clad in a fuchsia sari stands waist-deep, pouring a stream of the river's holy water from a brass pot and reciting prayers while a plastic bag of garbage washes up on the shore.

This river is known to Hindus as goddess Ganga, one of the main arteries at the heart of India's spiritual and physical life, who provides a lifeline of fresh water to the 400 million people who live on her banks.

Starting Wednesday and for the next six weeks, legions of devout Hindus will celebrate the "Ardh Kumbh Mela" or Half Grand Pitcher festival in the city of Allahabad, at the confluence of the Ganges and Yamuna rivers. Allahabad is one of four spots where Garuda, the winged steed of the Hindu god Vishnu, is said to have rested during her battle with demons over a pitcher of divine nectar.

But chronically high levels of pollution have turned this river goddess into a potential killer. For the nearly 75 million pilgrims - setting the record for the world's largest gathering of people - who will travel here to bathe their sins away, sip the river water, or cremate their dead, the "holy dip" is believed to usher them more quickly into a state of nirvana."

QUOTE (ePiTau @ Jan 6 2007, 01:29 PM)

QUOTE (zanardi @ Jan 6 2007, 12:14 AM)

Faith, trust, belief, hope and all, very difficult to make exact distinctions between them.

Happened to me. Looked up "faith" in some electronic Websters, and the thing had the nerve to define "faith is the firm conviction that..." Ach so, dachte ich, alles klar!

Alles klar und wunderbar! It is also said that the most sincere form of belief is disbelief.
Sometimes I feel very sincere.

Is Garuda a chick??

Faith, belief, trust, hope, conviction et al, are they all not escape routes from the mighty cliffs of existential abyss?

Ha ha. I noticed that too.

Chick is the hidden meaning of calling Garuda a she.

Hey, it's not my definition. I said it came from either a purport by AC Bhaktivedanta Swami or from scripture. And later on last night i remembered that i got one word wrong; the quote was "unflinching trust in something sublime"
not absolute trust. Love is sublime, can you verify love? Love that stands the test of time can be trusted.

Faith is being outside of the jar, and believing the honey inside taste sweet.
Loosing faith is saying - bah, I can't open the jar, but the honey was probably not sweet anyway.
Love is getting inside the jar of honey and tasting the sweetness.
Arguing is saying - since no one can open the jar of honey, you are lying!

Is it nobler to fall off the cliff than to escape the abyss?

I think as long as one doesn't preted the abyss isn't there, it is just sane to try to find a safe path to tread.

QUOTE (Dhyana @ Jan 7 2007, 11:45 AM)

QUOTE (zanardi @ Jan 6 2007, 06:40 PM)

Faith, belief, trust, hope, conviction et al, are they all not escape routes from the mighty cliffs of existential abyss?

Is it nobler to fall off the cliff than to escape the abyss?

I think as long as one doesn't preted the abyss isn't there, it is just sane to try to find a safe path to tread.

Nothing noble in that, I suppose. Still, I have a strong feeling (trying to avoid the word faith and its relatives here, not succeeding in that...)that pretending is bad. Awareness of the facts of life is healthy.