Avadhuta, what is that, who is it? Why and when?
But mostly about Vaisnava Avadhutas today.
Foremost Nityananda Avadhuta, but then?

I read the book about Pitambara, and he calls himself Avadhuta, doesn't he?
One person I know calls himself Avadhuta sometimes.
I looked up avadhuta in wikipedia, and was a little bit surprised to get a revisitation of the Nath order, that is also called Avadhuta sampradaya. Another Indian sampradaya brought to the west, in a kind of similar way that Prabhupada brought Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Not ISKCON but INO.
Interesting to read about.

Refreshing that initiation is something that you get for life, and no one can take it from you. I like that. It sounds much more real than the kind of initiation that can taken away from you by your guru giving up, or by a board decision.

Mahedranath also speaks about trying all spiritual concepts in your own spiritual laboratory to see that they work. I think that idea is just right. Not depend on what someone says, and just believe, but try, and if it does not work, wonder if it really is right.

So bhakti, bhakti, bhakti. How do we try it? It does not work if we are not allowed to dance around in exstacy and chant Radha! Krishna! How are we ever going to get it if we don't try and the guru does not give to you at initiation? We have to dive deep into it, and maybe just like a kind of virus, we get caught, and there is just no cure. Like a spiritual drug, we just want more, and more, and get addicted. When abstinence drives us crazy, we know that we got it.

so many interesting angles

as to the initiation - in our tradition it is also something you cannot renounce, but few people understand that concept properly. it is a door that gets opened but you have to pass through it on your own - you may freeze or stumble, yet the door is always left open.

and the extasy? it must be in you - it does not come in a guru-pill, but by the grace of guru and Krsna you may get a first taste. I'm sure you know that

and as to avadhutas. these are people who pursue their spiritual life without any regards for norms and conventions - social or religious. Pundarika Vidyanidhi was an avadhuta in Lord Caitanya's time. Actually, all close associates of Lord Caitanya had an avadhuta streak - but they only exhibited these avadhuta symptoms among themselves - even most of their really wild kirtanas were done in a closed circle of friends.

I think you have avadhuta tendencies to, Prisniji

long time ago in Poland we had a honorary "Avadhuta Club" among the new brahmacaris. in order to become a member you had to do something profoundly "disturbing" in your practice of Krsna consciousness

Like what?

one devotee became a member for taking showers on a train, using a specially made length of hose attached to a faucet in the typical railcar toilet. a couple of times he got busted by the railroad guys checking the tickets - can you imagine the scene? one time he almost got arrested as a suspected "deviant"

another got it for sleepwalking, or more precisely for being asleep even after apparently getting up in the morning. one particular incident comes to mind, when he knocks on the door of a bathroom full of girls, asks if someone is there, and walking in anyway despite getting a vigorous response. no need to suspect him of anything devious because he really was asleep - I think there is a medical term for it.

yet another devotee got it for losing his brahmana underwear while playing mridanga and leading an ekstatic kirtan on stage during an open program. without missing a beat ke kicked the underwear into the corner and continued for another fifteen minutes at least. I dared not to look in his direction as his dhoti was flying everywhere...

couple more got it for the habit of leaving their plates under the rain gutter on the farm (too lazy to wash). the plates were actually licked clean by local stray dogs but they kept believing it was the rain - even when it was not raining that night eventually we told them about the dogs...

Thanks so much for the stories, Kula-pavana! I am your servant....
The guy whose brahmana underwear knots loosened during ecstatic kirtan (proving no doubt his rasa was madhurya), was it Surapal by any chance?

Ek, reading over my shoulder, tipped Sacinandana Swami. But you said it was in Poland, so...

I think some matajis had this avadhuta-stamp of sorts too. But alas, I cannot remember any examples right now... One given candidate, from 1987 onwards, was bhaktin Alicja -- known at the New Santipura farm as "Alicja z krainy deszczowcow." An extremely appropriate nick. She was like some freaky Alice in the Wonderland. But you couldn't have known her, it was after your time.

I don't think Alicja did anything spectacular, though. It was just her person that was so... outlandishly innocent. Her outfits, her way of speaking... I do remember some of her specialties but they were things revealed to me in confidence...

One "public" one, though, was when our spiritual master stayed in Korsnäs for two months to finalize the Deity worship handbook. The stay was kept low-key because the BBT didn't wish to have an influx of foreign disciples, and also because he himself wanted to keep things simple. One winter day I and a Godsister of mine got informed that there had been a phone call to the temple by Bhaktin Alicja, and that she announced she was on her way from Poland to meet our dear Guru Maharaja. As it turned out, she took the ferry to Oxelösund, hitch-hiked to Södertälje (her English was in the lower range of average for a Pole), and from there she announced she would walk. Walk. It's at least 10 km, isn't it?

We got freaked to the max. We were afraid she would create a commotion, perhaps even get picked up by the police. We could imagine she would be wearing a sari. We grabbed Govinda Nandini, jumped into a car and drove slowly to Södertälje and back, looking out for her in the ditches. (GN is almost blind at night, and it was after dusk...) But we missed her. She had caught another hike and managed to explain to the driver where the Hare Krishna temple and her Guru Maharaja were. When we met her she was elated to be so close to Guru Maharaja, and totally uncomprehending of our frustration.

Hmm...more loosely on the avadhuta theme... have you ever traveled in a car's luggage compartment while on sankirtana? I and a bunch of other matajis from the Krakow temple did. It wasn't our inborn avadhuta streak though, rather the temple commander's order. It was a few days before Gauranga Bhajan Band's first concert there, and the brahmacaris managed to get an inofficial OK from the streetcar company to put up posters in there. It was late at night and several brahmacaris and -inis went to the streetcar park for a quick action. Why we traveled bent in half in that luggage compartment I don't remember. Either so that the guards wouldn't see how many we were... or maybe because otherwise we would be too close to the brahmacaris?

No, it was not Surapalaji whose wild dancing loosened the knot of his kaupins, it was another devotee who had so many avadhuta incidents we considered him the club's president... I'm sure you know him - his name is Marici das

yes, your bhaktin Alicia would certainly make the list. is she still around? I deeply miss people like that, and not just for their entertainment value their innocence is very refreshing...

travelling in the trunk of a car would only qualify as an avadhuta symptom if it was done out of free preference

speaking of cars and sankirtan... one time I had some books to deliver to the ladies sankirtan party in Krakow. All I had available was a little 650cc Fiat 126p(maluch). I took out all the seats (except the driver's) and loaded it chock full with big Gitas (that was all we had at that time) - all the way up. the car was so loaded the springs and shocks were completely flat. and the brakes were about as efficient as those on a train... I still have nightmares of riding cars with almost no brakes, where you press the brake pedal to the floor and you get almost nothing... It was a miracle I made my delivery. But my audacity (feel free to use another term if needed) had no limits... Once I got to Krakow, I had to move the girl's sankirtan camper from one camping to another (we got busted and had to move) - of course I moved it with my little Fiat it was only a few miles but at the first intersection lights turned red and I had zero brakes... the car finally stopped well into the intersection - luckily it was early in the morning and the traffic was sparse. from that point on I was timing the lights very skillfully

still, that does not make me an avadhuta... just plain old dumbadhuta

I do know him, but when I met him he was a little older already.... y'know... a bit more rounded...


I don't know if she is still around. Refreshing yes, but she was a real challenge for a manager or anyone who needed to network with her!


I can see it in my mind's eyes, you performing wonders in that tiny car.

Now that you mentioned matajis and Cracow, I remembered another prank of ours, and that one was most certainly by our own preference.

I joined that temple in 1991. The TP was Trivikrama Swami, as strange as it may seem. He stayed in Cracow for more than half of the time, but he would regularly make trips to the USA to collect donations to augment temple maintenance.

The matas had just been moved into a flat that was to be our ashrama. I was told that prior to that, they had a flat just a few steps away from the temple, but that the temple commander had ordered that rent terminated and found the new flat. That new flat was very far away. We strongly suspected this was done sneakily without TS' approval while he was in the USA, just to keep us away. We hated it. For the inconvenience, but especially for the intent. And, it prevented us from attending the mangala-arati, since no buses or streetcars drove that early in the morning.

Being an adventurous bunch, we figured out a way. It entailed us walking one km in tight formation, in our saris, to the nearest railway station, then sneaking onto a train (without tickets! you get caught, you pay a fine), hiding on it for a few minutes, until it came to some kind of railroad intersection where it had to stop for red light. It wasn't a station. How we figured out it would stop there I don't remember, but we did. Then we rushed down the railroad slope and across a villa area, until we were at the temple.

I still have to smile remembering how we marched into the temple room before the first stanza of Samsara dava was over. And how the b'caris all stiffened up in disbelief and had to restrain themselves from looking back to double-check whether it really was us.

We did this maneouver several times. Until Trivikram Swami stopped us. It was too dangerous. (And if the train did not stop, we would have ended up far, far away, for it was no commuter train.)

I don't remember clearly but believe that he shifted the mangala-arati time to a little later, so that we could participate.

wow! what an inspiring story! that was a lot more than a prank and it certainly qualifies participants into the avadhuta community

I was often truly inspired by the exploits of brave matajis back in those early years and I never tried to hold them back. We used to be like a family... It was the western Iskcon devotees influence that created all this anti-women nonsense. They were often experts at inducing artificial behavior out of very poorly understood shastric injunctions. Pity, as it truly diminished us as a movement and society...

Yeah, yeah, like being a Catholic.
That's the sort of thing we of the Catholic faith were told when we took up Vaishnavism ~ "once a Catholic always a Catholic."
Then we heard the same thing from devotees when we left Vaishnavism.

Have you ever stopped to think that some people may find it offensive, that the religion they LEFT BEHIND, still imagines it has some kind of eternal claim on them?

real avadhutas don't go around calling themselves an avadhut

True. That's why I always avoid going around calling myself an avadhuta.

I'm dubious about the whole crazy wisdom idea when people refer it to their own behaviour.
They would say that, wouldn't they!

On the contrary. An avadhuta is a person who does not follow social rules, and rules of what you should do and should not. Such a person is not to be followed, and in a social context it is even desirable to see who are avadhutas. If a person is unknown, it might even be good that that person say that s/he is an avadhuta, if it is not clear otherwise. To make it clear that you are an avadhuta might also be a signal - leave me alone and don't impose your social rules on me.

In a context like ISKCON, labelling is very important to maintain the social fabric.

Who is a real avadhuta, if not Angrezi - having distributed the pics of his hairy butt all over the internet.

I am ready to bestow the title 'avadhuta' to any female member who is actively participating in the restricted section.

What's the restricted section?

The unmoderated, password-protected threads with adult content.

Thank you, Kula-ji -- and thank you also for inspiring me to think back to these fold memories!


I have had contacts with the HK in Poland since 1985, and in my memory there has always been super-strict renounced people in it, both men and women. But I remember some of the family mood, too. The group I joined was quite gender-balanced and I did not feel looked down upon for being a woman, nor restricted from performing any service, including public lectures. Later, in the temples, it was an altogether different matter...

Maybe as long as ISKCON Poland was small, not organized, half-undercover and local, devotees were just more dependent on one another as individuals -- and also more free in finding forms for their own spiritual practice and community.

Back to the avadhutas: was Vamanadev a member of your club?

And, a memory you maybe can help me refresh: in 1985 at New Ramakeli, I was told by a senior devotee lady of a prank recently performed there by some devotee, perhaps it was Tapolokani but I am not sure. Remember the wooden free-standing toilet near the pond? She said that this devotee was supposed to install two little platforms for the feet on its floor, and two handles for the hands on the walls. Apparently he reversed the order. The "feet" ended up on the walls and the handles on the floor!

Have you seen the arrangement?

Ah, that's what it is. I wondered why it was password protected, since I did not find the contents much different from the other areas.

Vamanadev was THE inspiration for that club and it's original avadhuta I could sing about his avadhuta exploits for days. Hint: he was the one taking showers on trains

as to the toilet arrangements at Ramakeli. in my time we used "the Pit" in one of the ruined sheds
it was a very risky arrangement of a wooden plank over an open pit full of you-know-what. the holds were sparse but came in real handy when the board got slippery after someone "missed" and nailed the board instead of the pit, or in winter, when the board was covered with ice and snow... I have seen people witholding their bodily functions for days just to avoid that place

on a side note, that arrangement was very instructive as well, because it gave you a very real perspective of life as a worm in stool...

so... consider yourself very lucky if you used only the new latrine by the pond

it is nothing like that no eternal claim. just a door forever left open.

sorry, messed up my editing...

Fair enough; I appreciate your clarification, Kula-pavana!
I do know many of both Catholic and Vaisnava schools who do consider that you are still of their fold, temporarily in denial, no matter what ones protestations are.

its for avadhutas only

on the contrary , someone who says they are an avadhuta is following the socially percieved rules of an avadhuta i.e. there are no rules in the social context ( i.e calling themselves an avadhuta) therefore they are not really an avadhuta

That's is twisted. So you mean that someone that says that s/he is an avadhuta, is actually following social rules, and thus is an example to follow?

This is starting to approach zen thinking.

What is the avadhuta of a person that is only following the rule of not following any rules?

A real avadhuta is so avadhutaish that s/he even breaks the rule of avadhutahood too by sometimes following social rules.

if the restricted section is for avadhutas only, but real avadhutas don't ever call themselves avadhutas, then by being in the restricted section you are indirectly calling yourself an avadhuta, thus cancelling out your own avadhutaness.

i think avadhuthood is pretty gay.

it takes an avadhuta to recognize a true avadhuta. there are so many imposters

Avadhut Gita
translated Hari Prasad Shastri
http://www.geocities.com/advaitavedant/avadhutagita.htm

Avadhuta Upanishad
Translated by Prof. A. A. Ramanathan
http://www.geocities.com/advaitavedant/avadhutaup.htm

Turiyatita-Avadhuta Upanishad
Translated by Prof. A. A. Ramanathan
http://www.geocities.com/advaitavedant/turiyatita.htm

avadhutas do not follow rules except that they not follow rules which is a rule but they don't follow that because that would imply they did, which is not what they do. Thats all I'm saying.

me avadhuta hurtsa!

I tear apart my clothes to uncover my real Self, which stays hidden and subversive…but all I find is my nakedness reflected in some sub-serviant mode of illusion of non-duality! This is a major disappointment, like finding yourself waking up deep down—in the cold, cold ground. Hey Godbrothers and Sisters, quit throwing rocks at my already bleeding head, it’s the Self that is supposed to be indestructible, not the melon sticking out on top! Am I really alone, free from all taint, does the world really exist like a mirage within me like you say?

You want me to bow to whom?

Hey man, Atman, no body home!

Birth and death climaxing in infinite consciousness…soul sex…but Shruti says be sexless?

That’s all Bhramin brother…don’t be tempted to merge!

There’s a deva in the veda’s saying something else, totally!

Just a pilgrim…man…atman by the shore.

Three kinds of wine made from syrup, grain and honey…

…but the fourth is darkest of them all, the wine of sex!

So be a lover instead of spiritual wisdom and be not reborn.

That be the song of Dattatreya Avadhut.

But me avadhuta still hurtsa!

After reading this interesting thread thus far, i had to ask myself 'what is it about Sri Niyananda's avadhuta-ness that drew me to him (continuing to do so at times like this as i recall 'the very thought of him')?

It wasn't his avadhuta nature at all.

That he is Krishna's brother Balaram, Ananta Sesa, the Source of Gravity, Paramatma the Friend, and rumoured to be more merciful than God, packs a powerful punch, spiritually speaking.

The dancing naked in ecstatic trance and keeping company with society's rejects was an afterthought, another look into the heart of God's brother.

Nice, i too thought of Him.

Click to view attachment

This beautiful picture of my Lord Nitai was found in a temple of Nitai's line around Calcutta in the early 80's by a close friend of mine. Guru Maharaja said to him, in an unrelated question "So if Nityananda is seen drinking wine with some prostitute and later we see the prostitute has become maddened by Krishna prema and renounced her prostitution, who has delivered her? The wine or Nityananda?

technically, avadhutas are bi

And they wear kaupins.

The glory of India is that one can frequent wine shops and meet avadhutas there

and boas

The first time i saw this rendition of Sri Nityananda was in San Jose, California in the summer of 1982.
Sudhir Swami and Brahma das maintained an ashram under the spiritual guidance of Sridhar Maharaj (the one who is Prabhupad's godbrother) and that's where i first laid eyes on that image.

It was an éarth, movin' under my feet' experience, for me.

I was hoping it was as good for him.

Yes and I was there often and sudhir was my best friend in those days. Vidagdha got permission to photograph this painting as I said from a temple of Nityananda near Calcutta. Gaura Hari Bol.

Dayalu, do you have any information about the date of the original painting? Nityananada holding a stick is (i'm guessing) indicative of his identity as Balarama in Vrndavan?

Actually Vidagdha told me, and I havent seen him in years, that the painting was really not that old (100 years tops) and that he was told the painter was a drunkard who became a reformed devotee by the grace of Nitai. It is a wonderful painting and somewhere I have a 8x12 glossy of it.

I have been thinking, and I think that we approach both "spiritual" people and avadhutas in the wrong way. We expect some behaviour. As for spiitual people, we expect a Pope, a Dalai Lama, a Jesus or a typical indian Guru. And as for Avadhutas, either the naked avadhuta or maybe Nityananda. But for people who are beyond this world, we who are in this world, cannot predict the behaviour. Some what to be Acaryas, and teach by their behaviours. Other's just don't give a f:k.

Wherever we go, there are preconceptions of how "spiritual" people should behave. Maybe there are different standards, depending on where we go, but all have in common a particular behaviour for acceptance.

Avadhuta, as in Nityananda avadhuta, means simply unpredictable, not following the preconceptions. He does as he want, when he want, and break any social real he want, or follow any rule he want, or use any rule for his own purposes. All adding up to the unpredictable. If he was always breaking social rules, it would mean predictability, but he did not. Sometimes following rules, sometimes not, and sometimes utilizing the rules to the extreme.

Today when so many different things are allowed, and when people compete in doing the most unexpected and different, maybe it is not so easy to figure how anyone can do something really unexpected. But even though it is a trend to do unexpected things, there is a system to it. There are actually rules that you don't break. Sacred unwritten untold rules.

Among devotees there are rules. Not the external medieval rules that are picked up from the scriptures, but other ones. For example, if someone would walk in to arati as a leather goddess, you would break one of those unwritten rules and make everyone angry, and assume all kinds of things. Actually, they would all think about sex, and be ashamed of that, and think that you are the problem.
Gopis are perfect nice sari-clad shy girls.

PRECONCEPTIONS!!!
(and particularly left wing gopis are known for their unpredictablity)

What if Krishna likes leather? After all, that kind of thing is also a reflection of the spiritual world. Could we imagine Radha and Krishna coming to this world, but on a motorbike, the hottest chick and the coolect guy, all in leather? That would be something. They would be worshiped on the spot.

But we can't think like that, since we are so full of our own preconceptions. Actually so bound up by the pregrammed concepts of our bodies, and then identifying with it as us.

An avadhuta is free from bodily concepts. S/he can do anything, within or even without, the limits of this world. It is a free soul. A leather Goddess a naked saint or a new Dalai Lama. It does not matter. There is nothing we can pinpoint on such a character since s/he is not of this world.

I can maybe imagine Lord Shiva and Parvati doing that but not Radha and Krsna. Their love is very, very private.

There are many moods (mellows) in the Supreme, but they are expressed separately, in various separate manifestations, such as Shiva, Krishna, Vishnu, Devi, Radhika, etc.

I would find them boring and throw tomatoes at them I like my gods starving-eyed and derelict.

Certainly that description would never be Siva and Parvati.

"If you meet God or Buddha on the path, kill them,
If you meet the Devil or a demon on the path, kill them."

Japanese Zen proverb

Very interesting! I was writing about Pundarika Vidyanidhi relationship with Avadhuta Marga at the e-matrix thread. The Avadhuta Marga follow in a lineage of diksha from Pundarika Vidyanidhi to Gadadhara Pandita down to Pitambar. This is our family line called Gadadhar Parivar. Now we can see where this crazy wisdom teachings of Pitambar came from.

love and do what thou will.

Nice avatar Open Mind, did you take a picture of your hired entertainment of yesterday evening to show everyone?