i was watching a show on the biblical code (its about finding coded hidden messages that the world is going to end in the bible when you read it upside down and backwards) and it seems that jews and christians are gaining many new converts by propulgating this and i feel we as guadiya repercussionists are losing out on new converts by not having a veda or similar code of whatever our repercussions of being a gaudiya are. i think we have to organize efforts to similarly have our own code. also, has anyone gone through the posts here upside down and backwards and found any hidden messages?

.erofeb ti deirt reven I ,oN

I tried it and became very dizzy. Where are my bentzos?

It seems that these comments of ‘codes’ in the Bible are light hearted. On a more serious note is must be understood that it has been a tradition of Biblical interpretation from the time of Christ and before, to interpret the Bible in this way. In the kabalistic tradition, which is an old tradition, it is called gematria. Each Hebrew letter is also a number. In English we have separate symbols for 1 and A for example, but the Hebrew letter A, or aleph א is also the symbol for the number one also. They do not have separate symbols for letters and numbers. Therefore the Bible is inherently numerical. Adding up words arranging them in grids like mandalas etc etc is a natural and inherent Biblical tradition and not something imposed on it later. The Greek text of the New Testament is also the same.

Each Greek letter is also a number too. The name Jesus in Greek adds up to 888, and what the name Jesus is to Christ is the ratio of 3 to 5 and what Jesus is to Jesus Christ is 5 to 8, making the divine ratio of 3:5:8. It is all intentionally put in by the authors of the texts. Thus one sees that St Mark was portrayed in iconography with a set of compasses and the holy script together. Therefore the Christian and Judaic traditions are actually numerical, geometrical and kabalistic. Whether or not the Bible Code is right though, as in accurate predictions etc etc is to me a red herring taking away the real beauty and symbolism of the numerical and geometrical mandalic depths of a Hebrew tradition concerned with sacred geometry and number symbolism. It doesnt have to be as complicated and as specific as the Bible Code.

There are simple things such as the Hebrew name of God is also the numbers 10:5:6:5. And the story of the patriarchs from Adam to Moses (to whom is revealed this name of God) is exactly 26, the total of the number of the name of God. Furthermore these 26 patriarchs are divided up into 10:5:6:5. There are 10 from Adam to Noah. 5 from Noah to Abraham’s descendent whose name appears before a verse saying “and the earth was divided in these days”. 6 till Isaac, which leaves the next 5 beginning with Jacob, or Israel himself ending in Moses himself, who is the author of the 5 books, or the Torah. There are many features just in this one example which indicate the dividing of the generational line from Adam to Moses according to the numbers of God’s name in the Bible verse in these sections also, but for the sake of space I will not get into this here. Readers can try and track down Friedrich Weinreb’s Roots of the Bible for more on this and there is a lot.

This is a simple example to show how the number pattern is inherent in the narrative and main story of the Bible, its root story so to speak, and there are many simple and easily demonstratable examples like this to be obvious this is not co-incidental. It is also proof that the Bible is not simply a tool for propaganda as has become very trendy to accept blindly that it is so. We may take things lightly and laugh and deride by saying one can find patterns in anything, but not like these overwhelming and very frequent patterns. It is a side of the Biblical tradition, which was chastised as heretical by the literalists and fundamentalists and kept alive via heretics, Gnostics and kabalists. It has now become fashionable for Protestant fundamentalists to use it to prove the divinity of the word of God. But they still hang onto their fundamentalists literalisms and dogma.

Even the place names of the Bible and the battles have numerical sequences, and reveal how the translations of the places, histories, battles etc are not exactly literal and open to interpretation. For example Egypt is named Misraim in the Bible and may apply to any number of places besides the historical Egypt. Plus what the name Misraim is to Israel numerically in ratio is what the Hebrew for ‘tree of life’ is to the ‘tree of knowledge’, two sets of related dualist principles in a metaphor of liberation. The liberation from Egypt to the promised land is a central key of the story, which is really what the liberation from the tree of knowledge towards back to the paradise of the tree of life is all about but in another plane. Also the Hebrew for Adam can also mean ‘reason’ and Eve, ‘intuition’ as Hebrew words are roots of consonants without vowels (vowels were inserted by markers outside of the words much later) and can mean multiple things too. Adam and Eve are interpreted as body and soul by the kabalists.

A similar understanding to Puranic traditions and mythical battles etc therein would be nice and I am sure there are traditions out there which are mystical, mathematical and nonliteral. This to me would make much more sense than the over literalist interpretation. 8 is a Biblical number for salvation as Jesus is 888 and the eight day above the seventh of transcendence is important in the Bible in many places. This is how 8 is understood originally, Pythagorean and kabalistically. Krishna is also born of the 8th day of the moon, and is the 8th child. Radha too is also born of the 8th day too. There are 8 demons Krishna kills before he dances in the rasa dance which is pivotal and central. There are 8 principle Gopis and the list goes on. It is obviously non literal and unhistorical (but that does not mean history cant be arranged numerically in a certain pattern and encoded) and the pastimes were composed by folk, Brahmins with numerical intent tp portray the esoteric depth of the number 8. It is so obvious. And I’m sure there is more. We just have to notice it that’s all. Anyway bye for now on this serious note…

ETA: white space for readability (Tapati)

The 18, 108, 1008 are significant numbers in Hinduism:
multiple of 9
18 parvas in Mahabharata
18 chapters in Bhagavadgita
18 days' war
18 army divisions (all constisting of multiples of 18)

18 dvipa's

vedic fire altar 18 bricks high (with total of 10.800)

(breathing average 18 a minute)

maybe you're interested in Koenraad Elst's article on 108 here.

Is that The Vedic Code?

The article on 108 is amazing. The best description about the inner symbolism of 108 mala mantra chanting I have ever heard. Are there any Gaudiya Vaishnava lineages, which teach Gaudiya Vaishnavism in this logical way? It’s a shame there are so many unbalanced traditions, either the promiscuous Tantric traditions or the fundamentalist literalist purity obsessed. These esoteric aspects are well hidden, if known at all, it would seem. And if they are to be found they are unfortunately (for me) in the camps of the promiscuous Tantric with its left hand taboo breaking obsession (which I see as too narrow), or the super strict and ritualistic (almost dry) Advaita Tantric traditions, which do not gel with a personal conception of the Absolute. Is there ever any balance going on? Anyway it is the number symbolism of the scriptures which the tantrics usually dwell on.

Someone in the Gaudiya tradition must know about 108 as found in this article, or at least as found in parts of it. And lets not forget 64, 32, 16 and 8, those multiples of 8 which feature in chess and Krishna lila also. I wonder what esoteric lineages say about these numbers?

The square of nine is an interesting feature. In Japanese and Chinese temple architectural traditions, the square of 9 asociates with government royalty and power of the state.

The 8 squared board contains a centre of 4 squares and the 9 squared board contains a centre of 9, within which is also 1. In Chinese chess the pieces are placed upon the lines of the 8x8 chess board, which are in fact 9x9 lines. So whether 9x9 or 8x8, they are closely interlinked here.

In the Vastu Purusha temple architectural tradition these squares of 8 and 9 are of import but the square of 8 seems to be the one most closely involved with devotional and inner spiritual traditions and 9 for kingship power based ritual, which is usually side by side with the spiritual, but not all the time. However we also see how this square of 9 hooks up with the spiritual here in 108, which is an interesting number anyway for the three digits within it. We have the 1, which is God, 0 which is Brahman (or 1 for Brahman 0 for God or transcendental Purusha), and the 8 which is the qualities of Brahman, Saguna, all together. A set of three sacred numbers which contains within them the 9 of diversity and the spiritual unfolding of creativity as the article clearly reveals.

Thanks for this.

mosts simple minded vaisnavas (no insult ....ï told you, i told you, i told you, i was one of those' LCohen) think '108 gopis, beads, auspicious number and 8 principal gopis.

The rest is like "who cares?" and that's what i think GV is about...

but maybe i'm wrong*

*so many times now i've said this, it could be my avatar signature

Number mysticism can be seen as a form of meditation, as a sadhana. For instance the kabbalists in their gematria practices on Torah think they can penetrate deeper and deeper into the Divine Mystery, even obtain the gift of prophecy and so on; there are also other systems of number mysticism. Through those numbers you might start to realize that stories in for instance the Mahabharata are more than strange fairy-tales.
It is a small part of esoteric religion, but not a part of traditional or whatever form of GV, as far as I could figure out, maybe because 'thinking' is involved and that is a no-no for the bhakta's, right? (present forum company excepted) Although Dharmaraj is trying to connect chess with Radha-Krishna etc. There are more people who are trying to do that. Bhakti Ananda Goswami here and another article on the number 108 here.

If the number structures are there in the texts and the temples they are a part of the devotional tradition of Radha Krishna in my opinion. But this aspect of the tradition is not there for everyone, and to peruse and contemplate it is not the goal of the tradition. But it is certainly a part of it, and no doubt some will write and speak of it. I just wondered where else others do this. It is nice to see that others contemplate this number structure and beautiful mandala of wisdom in various ways. The example of Bhakti Anand Goswami is a key point. He would see significance in the esoteric tradition of God’s numerical and geometrical flowers of God’s love and wisdom.

Number structure is also behind the creation but one does not have to know it to live. But isn’t becoming more Krishna conscious, becoming more conscious of His energies and His numbers too? The fourfold arms of the Vyuhas don’t hold in each one of this fourfold array of hands, different symbols in differing orders for no reason. There must be traditional texts on the numbers within the tradition, and must have been those who contemplated them more than the others. It is just a case of finding them, knowing what to recognise when one digs deep.

Unfortunately numbers in the west have been too excessively associated with the mind and the intellect, and sense perception only, ruling out the past where they had been understood Pythagoean like, as numbers with inherent qualities, meanings and relationships. Isn’t in a sense this what Krishna consciousness is about, qualities, quantities, equations of golden spiritual love, in an array of relationships, a harmonious and sweet mandala of abode, made from Chintami stone. From the rasa dance to the fine flowerings of the architecture of Dwaraka, and all the various groupings and categories of associates, number and geometry is there, and Sri Krishna Himself has chosen this as His vehicle to reveal His pastimes, which are unlimited.

I myself do care about all this, but not simply only because of the reasons outlined above. It would however be nice to hook up with those of the past, in the early and golden days of the tradition, who have further explained the numerical significance inherent in the sastras. Or am I in expectation of a fantasy that simply isn’t there, thinking that there is some kind of hidden kabalistic tradition equivalent to that of the Torah sages of Israel, within the Gaudiya tradition? As well as those now who are exploring what is this Vedic number structure, is there a tradition which explains the numerical signatures placed in them by the writers of sastras, codes within the Vedas?

I know there is touching on all this, an interesting book by BG Sidharth called ‘The Celestial Key To The Vedas- Discovering The Origins of the World’s Oldest Civilisation’, published in Rochester, Vermont by the famed esoteric publishers; Inner Traditions International in 1999. In here he works out that there is an astronomical code in the Vedas, which pointing towards certain astronomical alignments can point towards the times the Mahabharata, Vishnu Purana, the Rg Veda and the Ramayana are set in. His approach is that the Puranic and other Indian ‘myths’ hide within them these astronomical features (no doubt also astrological-but he doesn’t dwell so much on this, dwelling more on how advanced the astronomy of the ancient Indian’s was, as compared to the western models) which point to these different dates of composition of sastras. He concludes from all this that the Rig Veda actually dates to around 10, 000BC, and unexpectedly from all this also gives the date of the total solar eclipse of the Mahabharata war as 1350 BC. He concludes other dates for other sastras with his unravelling of the Vedic astronomical code embedded in it’s so called mythic symbolism. The book is reasonably detailed and complex and has within it some good arguments. But I have not absorbed it enough to get into it here in any detail. I could scan some of the pages if I had a scanner, which I unfortunately don’t have at the present. But this author is more of an empiricist than a devotee and is not part of any tradition accept the westernised Indian tradition in exile. He would probably lean towards Sankara to in his interpretation of the position of Vishnu and Krishna. But his interpretations are thought provoking and tie in with all this code stuff.

But I’m looking for something a bit more devotional and traditional and even from the fundamentalist literalist camps for that living connection to history text and tradition.

You might like the books by Richard L. Thompson (Sadaputa Das) then. For instance his "Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy" and "Mysteries of the Sacred Universe; the Cosmology of the Bhagavata Purana".


Otherwise the articles by Subash Kak here.

Or: this article by dr P.V. Vartak on "Astronomical Dating of the Ramayana".

or:
This article (PDF) "Number Symbolism in the Vedas" by S.S.N. Murthy

or:this article
"On Exploring the Vedic Sky with Modern Computers" by B.N. Narahari Achar. There are a lot of other interesting articles in that ejournal too.

An good introduction to the study of mythology and astronomy is:
Florence and Kenneth Wood
Homer's Secret Iliad; the epic of the night skies decoded
John Murray, London, 1999
because the basics of astronomy are explained and I started to realize the all-importance of astronomy to the Ancients.

or:

Giorgio de Santillana & Hertha von Dechend
Hamlet's Mill; an essay investigating the origins of human knowledge and its transmission through myth
Godine, Boston 1969, complete book on line here.

Thanks again SB. Thanks for these links and artcls, cheers. Will peruse them when time permits and inspiration calls. I’ll probably start with the Number Symbolism in The Vedas first. Astronomy and astrology is something I’m not over familiar with and something I will need to brush up on and will check out your links. I don’t come across much stuff on the kabalah of the Veda so to speak on the net, maybe I havn’t looked hard enough. Will let you know of anything interesting I come across when I conduct further searches myself.

I am more interested in gematria and if there is a Sanskrit gematria tradition, especially within Vaishnavism, but if not where. I know that the Sanskrit letters are not simultaneously numbers also like the Semitic alphabets. So I do not know if a Sanskrit gematria is possible.