his bio and posts very nicely present the softer side of acbs that many seem to have tossed with his hard side... my own theory on bs is that the Impersonal Lord in wanting to deliver the world unto voidism understands that most of us are deluded by personalism due to when we look at ourselves and others, there is the illusion that we are people and so the Lord in order to get people on the theistic path, sends a teacher who teaches personalism with the idea being that another teacher will round out the inconsistencies of the belief system and return them to the Light

http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.php?showuser=615

Biography 1950: Born to the Personal Secretary of the Ambassador to the United Nations from India. The Ambassadors name was Krishna Menon. My mother said she used to say the name Krishna all day long for the first few months of her pregnancy with me.
1965: I wake up one day with this overwhelming feeling in my heart that there is a God. I spend the entire day telling everyone that that there is a God and we should love him. I actually feel something in my heart which I describe to everyone as love for God. Some people think I am crazy; some appreciate what I have to say. I don't care what they think I am talking to everyone friends, family, strangers, everyone. After listening to me for an hour my mother says this is a great gift to her, (She is very religious) the day before her wedding anniversary. My parents wedding Anniversary is September 18. The day before when I had this experience was September 17, 1965 the day Srila Prabhupada arrived in America.
1966: I receive books by Edgar Caycee on reincarnation and clairvoyance. I believe!
1969: I start chanting Hare Krishna Maha Mantra with the Hair Album on a regular basis while voraciously reading everything, Hesse, Watts, Maharishi, “Book of the Dead”, etc. George and John are big influence in the chanting.
Earth Day 1970: I meet the devotees and move right into 61 Second Avenue temple in New York.
Early 1971: I have two dreams two nights in a row. The first is a dream of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur giving me a set of Japa beads and telling me that he is giving me the most valuable jewels. I vividly remember this dream to this day what the room looked like and what the area outside the house looked like when I left, more on this later. Second night I am falling through the universe and approaching the planet earth. While I am falling I am hearing a divine voice chant the Gopal Mantra.
1971: I won't get initiated by mail I wait to meet Srila Prabhupada first and get initiated in person. I get Hari Nam initiation from Him on the same day which is what I wanted.
January 1972: I alone get Diksha in a very private and personal inition fron Srila Prabhupada in Nairobi, Afirca on the appearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.
1974: I get a lot of personal association of Srila Prabhupada in Mayapur, Vrndavan and Bombay throughout the year. I see the house of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in Godruma when I enter I realize this is the room I saw in the dream three years earlier. In Vrindavan I am with Srila Prabhupada in His room thinking about this and if I should ask Him. Suddenly He turns to me and says "You and I have associated in the past and we are associating now and in the future". I had the answer to my question.
1975: More association with Srila Prabhupada in Bombay and in Mayapur. I receive my first order to go to Orissa and preach with Gour Gopal, later to be known as Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja. I fail miserably the first time leave and Srila Prabhupada does not give up on me he makes me president of Calcutta Temple.
1977: I organize the Festival site at Kumbha Mela in Allahabad for ISKCON I make a lot of mistakes. For the first time in our relationship Srila Prabhupada chastises me. I am at first frightened and then angry and then joyful as I realize I am finally getting the real mercy. I go to Bhubaneshwar where Srila Prabhupada is staying for fourteen days. I am ordered again to stay and preach in Orissa with Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja. I stay my life is transformed living intimately in the middle of the jungle in a mud hut with a MahaBhagavat. Srila Prabhupada Departs I spend a lot of time with Him in Vrndavan and witness the deep relationship between Him and Srila Narayana Maharaja. I am by His side when He leaves I witness the transcendental display of ecstatic symptoms just before His Departure.
1978: The ISKCON power struggle begins. I meet Lalita Prasada Thakura and he tells me the glories of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. He also glorifies Srila Prabhupada saying He believes that Srila Prabhupada fulfilled the prophecy of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur.
1979: In Mayapur I witness Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja display many of the ecstatic symptoms that I saw Srila Prabhupada display. I bring Krsna Das Babaji into the room to confirm or deny the symptoms. He assures me it is Bhava ecstatic love of God. I am Thunderstruck I now for the first time really realize who I have been living with for over two years. The GBC dismiss it. I become angry which starts a long political struggle between me and the GBC I nearly start a revolution which ends up in my being threatened with bodily harm if I do not leave Orissa and Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja's association. I do not want to cause Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja any trouble I leave.

There is a lot in between then and now but I am presently a varnaprastha living with my son and I am preparing for sannyasa ashram. I am trying to increase my hearing and chanting and puja. I read study and write on a daily basis. I like to hear from realized souls and although I am full of the four defects and no where near that position my self I believe based on Guru, Shastra and Sadhu that there are many pure Vaishnavas in the Gaudiya Vaishnava lineage coming from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and that no institution or single person has a corner on the market. However, I have accepted a shiksha guru and I am faithful to him and his instructions which have helped me enormously. The name my Srila Prabhupada gave me is Bhagavat Das.

I remain your worthless servant
DASA

I knew Bhagavat and his wife.They have cool veggie recipes.

is his self esteem really that low? he thinks of himself as a worthless servant but i think he has a heart of gold

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.
Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900), The Dawn, Sec. 297

That which we obtain too easily, we esteem too lightly.
Unknown

I originally looked at this site and thought that I did not belong here or to be frank that I even wanted to be here. I am just being honest here thats all. However, I saw a post one day by BABU about Mr. Dasa so I thought I would take a look at the post and found it was, as I suspected, a post about me including my biography. I am flattered but concerned. I am characterized as someone without self esteem. Now I have put some considerable thought into this in the past, that is as Swami Beyondananda says "taking an esteem bath". Since I am primarily dominated by Pitta Dosha, which is primarily consisting of the element of fire, too much esteem goes to my head and makes me hot headed giving me a swelled head so generally I try to avoid it whenever I can. However I would like to say as an Ayurvedic Practitioner that in my studies of ayurvedic psycology and freudian psycology I have found some interesting parralells and I wrote a brief paper about it which I have delivered to academicians in several conferences. The paper was greatly appreciated by all western and eastern practitioners. I would like to give you all a brief insight into this paper by posing a question to BABU and the gang here if I may about the subject of self esteem.

Which SELF should I esteem BABU? The body? The mind? The intelligence? The physical brain? The Heart? The emotions? The Soul? The body, mind, spirit complex? The self as defined by western or eastern psycology? Or the self of the vedas? The self of the Bible? The self of Freud? The self of Nietzsche? Which self should I esteem BABU? Do you know for sure what the self is and the process for taking an esteem bath or are you just guessing?

Anyone want to venture an answer here by defining the self and the process for esteeming it? Come on now don't be shy I have been looking at this site long enough now to know you guys can speak your mind when you want to. If however you are having trouble you could do some Mexican yoga to loosen you up a bit and relax you. That posture is depicted in my posting on this forum.

I will sit back and watch the replies this should be FUN!

Your Worthless Servant
DASA

self-es·teem (sĕlf'ĭ-stēm')
n.
Pride in oneself; self-respect.


The self is the consciousness within, i have been told that it hangs' in the Heart. My master, babu, tells me that you have a "Heart of Gold". So your self esteem should be worth quite a lot, since we live on the Gold Standard.

cool answer here, from Damodara Prabhu, Prabhupada's disciple from almost 40 years ago

i was trying to be true to your own words as you consider yourself a "worthless servant"

so i guess the question you are raising is that being a worthless servant is not synomynous with low self esteem?

i think the value of a low self esteem is self esteem could possibly have a lot to do with ego and so with lots of self esteem, one could be putting lots of filter on the spirit that shining in our hearts

as for self or true self, there is only one for me and that's of the heart... its love man, can yah feel it?

The question is it's own answer.

That is just like you Homer. Don't answer the question just make some pseudo intellectual comment "what a cop out" (sorry to steal your phrase.)

NO! The question I am raising is how can you have self esteem unless you know who your self is? If you do not know who you are how can you take an esteem bath? And if you know who you really are than being the worthless servant in low self esteem maybe the highest state of consciousness you can have.



This is true too much false ego will cover the self but if you know who you are than your real ego will make yourself shine. If you can at least begin by taking yourself out of the subjective reality consciouness which places you at the center of the universe and perceive your infinitesimalness (I just made that word up) within the universe you can begin to realize the highest state is having the lowest self esteem of the worthless servant.



AAAHHH a heart man. Very noble Babu but which heart are you referring to the physical or the emotional?

Your Worthless Servant
DASA

I once was part of a study group with Padabja and Gopavrndapal. I proposed in one of our sessions that what we describe in mundane terms as low self esteem is NOT the same as the spiritual humility that a devotee should hope to achieve. I suggested that mundane low self esteem stems from an injured psyche, whether we consider it a "false" ego or "the" ego, and that one has to work past that to a healthy self esteem BEFORE one can ever hope to get to a level of spiritual realization that allows one to see oneself in perspective with the connectedness to the rest of the universe. We are both the small insignificant speck of consciousness and yet a vital part of the whole.

Being preoccupied in the way I was just after my abusive first marriage with how flawed I was did not make me spiritually advanced or humble. It just meant that my "false" ego had literally been beaten down and I was totally absorbed in the cracks I found in it. I had to pick my "self" up from that state and heal before I could begin work on seeing my place in the universe. (A work in progress.)

So I think that true spiritual humility can look like mundane low self esteem but we are talking apples and oranges here.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

Or, do you understand my comment?

Your ability to question is proof enough of a 'you.'

All you need to do is to trace the questioner, the 'you,' to the self and you will see that there is no need for the question.

Just pay attention to what is right under your nose, instead of what you have been taught to think.

There are those who teach you what to think and those who teach you how to use your intelligence to discriminate and come up with the answers. I asked everyone to think and tell me what they see as the answer. Instead of giving me your answer you continue to give me pseudo intellectual phrases. What do you really think HOMER? WHO ARE YOU? WHO IS YOUR REAL SELF?

Your Worthless Servant
DASA

Thank you very much for that TAPATI. Very thoughtful and insightful. I will say more later about it but I am pressed for time now. But I like it.

Your Worthless Servant
DASA

I should say that my original audience did not agree with my theory at all.

Hmm . . . I could check with Gopa to see what he thinks now.

and the point i am raising is how can you really know the self if you try to define it with verbal understandings as "this is what the self is"



subjective reality consciousness is the goal of life... why would anyone want to do that?



the love center

Maybe I'm just buzzed on pre-Olypic fervor and cheap brew, but I can't figure out what this thread is about

That would be interesting. I think they felt I was too into the psychology paradigm or something, and that seeking self esteem on the material level was counter to the humility we were supposed to be achieving.

I am under evolution and I hope my self esteem does not get lower during that.

if you have to much self esteem, just blow off some esteem

And please, offer him my heartfelt condolences on the passing of his wife, Mulaji.

"He who despises himself esteems himself as a self-despiser." ~ Susan Sontag

QUOTE (Adrija @ Feb 12 2006, 08:27 PM)

"He who despises himself esteems himself as a self-despiser." ~ Susan Sontag

I must say that Susan Sontag has a point there. There is already enough suffering and anxiety here on this planet, why should I spice it up even more by starting to despise myself? Why not just take things as they are?
To me the conception of what I am is under evolution and it changes as well as my understanding of what a good life is. Why force it?

Reminds me of a Sunday Feast lecture. Kinda cute – kinda presumptuous.

Here is what I am trying to make it be about, to paraphrase your language Angrezi. I am not as Homer suggests giving a Sunday feast lecture or being presumptious. I have read a large number of biographies and threads on this site. Couple that with my own experience and I have a fairly good idea of what you experienced and how you feel about the institution known as ISKCON. I do not care about the institution of ISKCON as it is existing today. It is less than a hollow shell of its former self. It places money before individuals, emphsizes the externals over the internals and quantity over quality, elevates style over substance, and politicizes the siddhanta in order to control its flock. But you know all of this already. What most of you do not know is what it was a long long time ago.

I had a lot of very intimate association with Srila Prabhupada and I was around early enough to see things go from beautiful, to bad, to downright ugly. What I was given in those intimate talks with Srila Prabhupada and what I experienced in those early beautiful days has been hijacked by a sad group of pseudo intellectual administrators who place the shell of an institution that they have left above the beautiful spiritual truths that we were given and experienced in those early days with our Srila Prabhupada. As I get older I am trying to pass on to everyone who wants it, what Srila Prabhupada gave us in the first place and it is not what you got before and it is not what they are dishing out today. He requested many of us in those early days to pass on what He was giving us to the devotees placed under our care. He would train us in a certain way over a series of meetings and then when he brought us through the process and when he saw the torchlight of knowledge illuminate our minds and eyes He would ask us to train others in the same way. What many of my god brothers did was assume that those under them were not qualified to receive this kind of training. The reality was that the persons that they thought were not qualified to receive this training were no less qualified then they themselves were to receive it from from Srila Prabhupada in the first place.

Babu questioned if my self esteem was that low that I would call myself a worthless servant. So I posed the question which self should I esteem. Tapati had some insight about separating the two, materiel self esteem and spiritual humility. She would be interested to know that I delivered a presentation on that brief paper I wrote showing the connections between Freudian Psychology and Ayurvedic Psychology at a seminar conducted by Gopa and Mula here in Alachua. I heard later on from several people that both of them highly appreciated it.

So with Tapatis permission and the blessings of all here I would like to walk with you through a process that Srila Prabhupada took us through when he personally trained us in the early days. A process I came to appreciate more later when I studied Ayurveda and learned recently from Mula Prakritis book "Our Srila Prabhupada a friend to all" how much Srila Prabhupada actually knew about Ayurveda in his grihastha days and how much he actually practiced Ayurveda by reading peoples pulses etc. How ever I only want to do this if you here at this forum also want to do it with me. I do not want to impose and if you are feeling negative about doing something like this that is also fine with me. I will go about my life as before without giving it a second thought. So it's your call what say all of you.

Your Worthless Servant
DASA

Ready and willing!

You Priceless Master , from the servant of your servant in the service of Prabhupada we trust.

I am all ears.

I get one really distant niggle - there was a poster (pester) with the moniker of Yourmaster who would claim to be a very early disciple of Prabhupada and that he would give inside information that Prabhupada gave to him secretly on the condition that we solve one puzzle; What are Thoughts? This was on Darwin’s board.

Now, either I have drawn a very, very long bow or Yourmaster was DASA or DASA has some genuine and wise counsel for us from Prabhupada.

Pour in the nectar!

I am not convinced that things in Isckon used to be much better in the days of yore. In fact, I am willing to accept that in a way they are better nowadays than what they were in the beginning. Less fun and enthusiasm, probably, but more humane. Otherwise it is the same old same old. Still, I am curious to hear Mr Dasa out.

I am not convinced it was different either. Child abuse went on, embezzlement of money, mental manipulations, guilt, politics, drug runs. It was all there. Would still be interested in what yer got to say.

At first, I was very suspicious of the postings by DASA, for it did sound very similar in tone and challenging demeanor—to what a person by the name of YourMaster and Authority had posted briefly here and at Istaghosti.org, especially the sign off (your worthless servant). But the bio of DASA is more personal and inclusive than anything portrayed by Yourmaster and Authority. Plus, stating that his early ISKCON initiated name is Bhagavat Das rings a bell, especially in reference to the practice of Ayurveda.

I remember a Bhagavat Das who was an Ayurvedic practitioner. He came to the Potomac, Maryland temple around 1987, and gave health consultations to devotees living there. My wife and I had our pulses read by him and had health recommendations given that were very beneficial. I also remember him giving great stories and remembrances of Srila Prabhupada during the visit.

So if indeed you are whom you say you are, then I would love to hear your message about the Prabhupada processes that you were trained in during the early days and want to share here. But you should understand also that some of your challenging posts here to the membership of GR does bring up a lot of suspicion in terms of being out of character to the person that I remember interacting with 19 years ago… but that was a long time ago and I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and listen to what you have to say.

Wow! I had not thought about the Yourmaster connection, but think not him.

I too do not believe in the "old iskcon days" glorifications.

I have a friend who is a "ritvik" kind of guy, in that he gives initiations to newbies. He sometimes blames our not being straight up brahmacari on the fact that we were not part of the "real" Hare Krishna Movement, a time which was as he says before our time.

But i always thought and heard from Prabhupada that the "real" Hare Krishna Movement was the one where you live at home, chant Hare Krishna and live simply with the high thinking.

In many places we can see that the leaders thought the thing to do was to live highly and think simply.

Madya Lila Chapter Seven verse #128......purport........This is the sublime mission of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Many people come and inquire whether they have to give up family life to join the Society, but that is not our mission. One can remain comfortably in his residence. We simply request everyone to chant the maha-mantra: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. If one is a little literate and can read Bhagavad-gita As It Is and Srimad- Bhagavatam, that is so much the better. These works are now available in an English translation and are done very authoritatively to appeal to all classes of men. Instead of living engrossed in material activities, people throughout the world should take advantage of this movement and chant the Hare Krsna maha- mantra at home with their families. One should also refrain from sinful activities--illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication.................The Krsna consciousness movement is trying to elevate human society to the perfection of life by pursuing the method described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His advice to the brahmana Kurma. That is, one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam.

The difference between today’s ITSGONE and what is was in the early daze was the Prabhupada Factor. His attraction and charm had all of us eating out of his hands.

The fights and the hassles and the mistakes were unimportant – we had Prabhupada!

Thank you everyone however I would like to hear from Tapati first. In the meantime let me assure you I am not yourmaster and never was. I saw his posts for the first time myself when GD broke down and I went to check out Krishna Talk. He seemed like an obnoxious person to me as well. I am who I say I am in my bio and I am a Srila Prabhupada man. There are a lot of things that he said and did in those early days that have been hidden from the rank and file devotees because of politics in the old boy club. I was one of the contributors for the first Gurukula building in Dallas from a settlement I received at the age of 21. Before that the children were cared for by their families in the temple itself or outside in their own apartments. There is a transcript of a conversation I read concerning Gurukula from one of the first meetings Srila Prabhupada had with the teachers that has essentially been removed from circulation ala 1984 tactics now you see it now you don't. In that conversation the teachers kept insisting that the bad behavior of the children was difficult to control and the teachers wanted to hit the children as punishment. Srila Prabhupada was not buying it. They asked about 5 or 6 times in different ways can we hit them when they misbehave the answer was always the same, NO! What Srila Prabhupada did was challenge them to give the children so much love that they would behave as a response to the outpouring of love. He never gave them the loophole they wanted he kept challenging them to rise above their base instincts to the platform of love. "If you love them" He said "then they will respond to your requests to behave without hitting" When Srila Prabhupada built the Gurukula in Vrindavana I happened to be there when he first inspected the building that was built while he had been on tour abroad. As he took us around the building he pointed out the many features that he had requested the architects and engineers to include in the development of the structure. The larger than usual (in India) windows, the large classrooms with high ceilings, etc. He was proud of what he had provided for the children and when he was finished with the tour he stated "Now we can take care of our children nicely in a Krishna conscious manner with out interference."

I was present in Allahabad in 1977 at the Kumbha Mela. During that time the first known child molester was brought before Srila Prabhupada. This guy had molested all the boys in Vrindavana Gurukula. He was a South American and not an Indian National. Srila Prabhupada had him banned for life never to darken the door of any ISKCON temple ever and Srila Prabhupada said that this was the rule to be followed in any subsequent cases. He was thrown out onto the road with nothing but the clothes on his back which were not even sufficient to keep him warm in the cold January weather and no money to his name. He was found wandering around India a few months after Srila Prabhupada wrapped up his manifest pastimes and invited back by a socalled Guru who was informed of his transgressions and Srila Prabhupada's directive to which he responded that "I am the guru now" so much for following in the footsteps of the predecessor acharyas. I caught up with him here in Florida in the 90's. When I told the temple authorities about his history and Srila Prabhupada's directive in one temple he was in down here, not Alachua, they responded with well he is doing service praaboo. I did not give up and finally when he was set to get on the Rathayatra tour where there was a lot of young boys about to travel in a less supervised situation I informed the older gurukuli alumni who were around 20 or so who he was and what Srila Prabhupada wanted. They surrounded him one day and told him to leave and if they saw him in any temple in America they would take care of him permanantely. He was out of sight for awhile but I have heard he has popped up in India again.

In my Grihastha Ashram my wife and I were licensed foster parents. We took care of over 70 children in our home in a period of 9 years that we were licensed. I took care of children from 2 weeks old to 15 years old who had been through every form of abuse imaginable and some you do not want to imagine. I learned a great deal doing this and It has helped me to understand a little of what the Gurukulis experienced although you can never really know unless your the victim. I was always a brahmacari in the old days and did not have any dealings with the Gurukulis except on rare occasions. Once in the Mayapur gurukula some children came down with disease and needed medical attention, that they were not getting in Mayapur. As president of Calcutta temple at the time I sent my car up with the driver to get them and I brought them all to calcutta and arranged for both Ayurvedic and Allopathic examinations and treatment. I took care of the children in my own office the only private room in the building, except for the womens quaters, on two large mattress we had their for people to sit on. I put the bookeepers and others out in the hallway and stayed with the children all day for several days and nurtured them back to health. I was criticized by many, oh you are a brahmacari, oh you have taken up the office, oh this is wrong the way you are doing it, Blah blah blah. But I knew in my heart that this is what Srila Prabhupada would do and what he wanted me to do. A couple of years ago a Gurukuli in therapy called me and told me that his therapist had asked him if there was even one good memory he had of his years in Gurukula and the boy said it was when I took care of him. He called me at the behest of the therapist to thank me for that one happy experience in his life as a Gurukuli. I am sorry I did not have more to do with the Gurukula when I was in ISKCON and for all the Gurukuli alumni on this site I apologize for not being able to do more for you when you needed it most.

It is true that there were mind manipulations, guilt trips, drug running which came around 1975 and was done by devotees living outside the temple as I recall. But there was as Homer says Srila Prabhupada. He made living in ISKCON an adventure that we all cherished. And for those of us who had as much intimate association with him as I did in groups settings and one on one it was a love relationship we can never forget. When Tapati gives me permission I will go on from here.

Your Worthless Servant
Dasa

mr DASA, you represent prabhupada and the gaudiya tradition nicely, pranams

i feel the use of the term "worthless servant" by the awakened and yourself (i actually felt kinship with your use of the term and so sought its investigation... my humble apologies if it appeared i was goofing on you) is more than semantics as it came to be semantics or somewhat of a mental foil or the true loss of self esteem (in the poorest sense... debilating self grief, doubt, guilt...) in iskcon but an aspect one's cent per cent absorbtion in God in the true gaudiya tradition although yes, it can be a troublesome concept and too, the mental manipulation you describe that has gone one in s.p.'s name was done in the quise of getting everyone thinking they are worthless servants in the poorest sense

but too, there is close approximation between self esteem in the poorest sense and what we consider the use of the term in bhagavat or mahabhagavats and so even when its bad, heaven isn't too far away...its never far away

praise God, babu

Most people call the police. What would the kids have prefered?

DASA, with all due respect, but I will be playing somewhat of a devil's advocate on this thread. Please know, though, that although I may sometimes come across as rather crass, there is no malicious intent.

I joined ISKCON long after ACBS had departed. I joined his legacy, and despite whatever the "sad group of pseudo intellectual administrators" had turned it into, they themselves were still the products of his teachings and guidance. Many of these power mongers, transgressors, weirdos, predators, abusers, drug trafficers, etc. were very close and intimate disciples of ACBS whom he not seldom hand-picked for administrative duties. People whom he entrusted entire zones of the world to, large temple communities, and schools. ACBS may have had the best intentions, but some of the practical applications of those intentions left a lot to be desired and in many cases required constant tweaking.

His gurukula experiment had grave consequences we're all familiar with. Of course, he didn't set them up for this purpose and must have been greatly perturbed by the abuse that went on already back then. Yet, he did not seem to consider that the idea may have been flawed from the very start. That sending children away from home at the age of 5 to a boarding school full of unqualified individuals that were never screened may not have been a very good idea. When the first reports of abuse came in, he had the chance to completely re-think the experiment, put the wole thing on ice, or dismantle and abandon it. But he didn't. The experiment simply continued -- even expanded. The result is that almost 30 years later the educational system in ISKCON is at its lowest point ever.

Likewise, the sannyasa experiment has had consequences that are reverberating to this very day. When young sannyasis were starting to drop like flies even during his presence, again, ACBS had the chance to make major changes that could possibly have set ISKCON up for a better future. Perhaps changing the focus to the householder ashram, which is the majority, instead of the sannyasa ashram, which is the minority. But no changes were made, and the sannyasa ashram nested itself into the future of ISKCON as an elitist boys club with privileges rarely seen even by householders. They are responsible for most of the anti-women propaganda and fanatic guru-worship over worship of God. Still, it cannot be discounted that most of these individuals were trained directly by ACBS -- from the racketeer Kirtanananda and child abuser Bhavananda, to machine gun wielding Hansadutta and drug user Jayatirtha.

In my opinion, what ACBS gave you in the first place is reflected in the behavior of the majority of his disciples.

He let Hayagriva edit his BG and thus turn it into something that is more of a 50/50 production of him and ACBS. Back then, in the absence of the currently available books and prolonged personal teachings by ACBS himself, Hayagriva likely knew less about Krishna consciousness that the average bhakta after a month of bhakta courses. So we have and "old" edition that a large following of ACBS disciples and others herald as the only acceptable edition. Then we have a new edition that is much closer to ACBS' original manuscript but is under attack because ACBS did not leave clear instructions about the future production or revision of "his" works. So what did he exactly give that should be passed on to the future generations?

I am also curious as to your response to the discovery that large parts of ACBS' Bhagavatam are verbatim translations and/or quotations (read plagiarism) of existing works from other publishers.

The reality of ayurveda is that most of it was lost. What has been presented as authentic medical treatments and medications from the "ancient Ayur Veda" for the last 20 years or so is more accurately reconstituted material that was propagandized by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in the 80s. He traces the origin of his stuff to the four Vedas (although these attribute most diseases to asuras, rakshasa, and evil planets). All of it was intimately integrated with his TM institute and herbal medicine sales.

I'm a bit wary of people who feel the desire to pass on the ever-elusive 'real deal' that the zillion other former and current Iskconites (or *insert -religion/sect/sampradaya*) weren't privy to. But like others I will hear what you have to say.

I always liked the Prab. saying "phalena pariciyate" , it has a lot of applicability in this discussion...

You got to get into the groove and feel those mysterious and esoteric vibes. How else will you ever break free from the trap that is this world?

I've felt them vibes before dude, and they weren't very groovy...

That reminds me of when I was a teenager and I used to hang out and drink beer with these old black dudes in the more seedy part of town, they gave me the official nickname J Cool Groove. I guess they could sense I was a future groove/vibelologist.

did you wear ribbed condoms?

The Maharishi did not get on the Ayurveda bandwagon until the early 1980’s, and while he and his institution did try to make their own worldwide Brand of this medical system, there are many other schools and practitioners out there in the world today who have nothing to do with TM or the Maharishi. Just as TM tried to corner the meditation market in the early 70’s with their simple 20 minute techniques, they also put their wealth and PR machine behind their branded Ayurvedic methods and products, but like their meditation system, it is only the tip of iceberg of what’s actually available.

Even though you say that most of the reality of Ayurveda was lost, it still remains a very powerful method of alternative medicine available in the world today. From my experience, you can get the full benefits of what Ayurveda has to offer outside the realms of the Maharishi/TM version and for almost half the price by finding qualified and trained practitioners by doing a good internet or telephone directory search.

http://www.ayurveda.com/

http://www.everydayayurveda.org/

http://www.ayur.com/about.html

http://www.ayurvedahc.com/index.htm

http://www.jiva.com/index.htm

Not until I was a brahmachary, i used them during auto-eroticism to not break the principles.

Is Tapati still zooming around the Los Padre mountains in her beautiful little Mazda or is she deciding whether to allow DASA to instruct us?

Amazing what a little editing can do - sort of pans out a bit more!

I think she is not due back untill tomorrow.

I was zooming around and then came home and had to rest for awhile. We had a good time but we drove a long way yesterday and then got back into Shakti (my Miata) today for another lengthy drive.