I have been feeling that something is missing from my life as it is right now: the kind of mental cleaning or renewal that living in a spiritual community could provide. Temple ceremonies. Silent prayer. The part of japa that was about "zeroeing" one's mind, letting thoughts pass without getting caught up in them.
I miss it these days. Saturday here was the day when people went to cemeteries and churches, remembering the dead family members, putting lamps and flowers on their graves. I went too, to get some of the atmosphere. There is a little, very old stone church where I live. I snuck in for a moment. But there were people around and I did not want to be in this kind of social or dogmatic context.
The closest I get to fulfilling the need for meditation that I feel, would be when I walk to work and back. Especially in the morning. It's peaceful, trees around. But it's so short.
The closest I get to worship is listening to sacral music. I do it a lot, and it moves me. But it's too passive. But how on earth can I make it more active if I do not have a deity to worship, nor want to have one?
Those of you who are nonbelievers like me, do you also feel such needs and what do you do to meet them?
Full Version: Need for worship or meditation
QUOTE (Dhyana @ Nov 7 2005, 01:42 AM)
I have been feeling that something is missing from my life as it is right now: the kind of mental cleaning or renewal that living in a spiritual community could provide. Temple ceremonies. Silent prayer. The part of japa that was about "zeroeing" one's mind, letting thoughts pass without getting caught up in them.
I miss it these days. Saturday here was the day when people went to cemeteries and churches, remembering the dead family members, putting lamps and flowers on their graves. I went too, to get some of the atmosphere. There is a little, very old stone church where I live. I snuck in for a moment. But there were people around and I did not want to be in this kind of social or dogmatic context.
The closest I get to fulfilling the need for meditation that I feel, would be when I walk to work and back. Especially in the morning. It's peaceful, trees around. But it's so short.
The closest I get to worship is listening to sacral music. I do it a lot, and it moves me. But it's too passive. But how on earth can I make it more active if I do not have a deity to worship, nor want to have one?
Those of you who are nonbelievers like me, do you also feel such needs and what do you do to meet them?
I miss it these days. Saturday here was the day when people went to cemeteries and churches, remembering the dead family members, putting lamps and flowers on their graves. I went too, to get some of the atmosphere. There is a little, very old stone church where I live. I snuck in for a moment. But there were people around and I did not want to be in this kind of social or dogmatic context.
The closest I get to fulfilling the need for meditation that I feel, would be when I walk to work and back. Especially in the morning. It's peaceful, trees around. But it's so short.
The closest I get to worship is listening to sacral music. I do it a lot, and it moves me. But it's too passive. But how on earth can I make it more active if I do not have a deity to worship, nor want to have one?
Those of you who are nonbelievers like me, do you also feel such needs and what do you do to meet them?
I am unsure that I am a true unbeliever. My dilemma is that none of the theologies I have examined are consistent and don't enter the realm of overblown stories about superhuman gods and saviors dieing for "my sins (?)" before rising into heaven.
I chant and sing the old Vaisnava songs even if the doctrine attached is not important to me. The beautiful melodies do seem otherworldly as long as I remove the purports of these songs from the haunting melodies.
I am bound to journey to the Himalayas with my son to release my late wife's ashes into the source of the Ganges, as she requested. I have already placed half into a special place in Karijini National Park where a pool of sparkling clear water makes a turn in the river. This was one of our favorite and private places.
QUOTE
The closest I get to worship is listening to sacral music. I do it a lot, and it moves me. But it's too passive. But how on earth can I make it more active if I do not have a deity to worship, nor want to have one?
You might try singing it.
I do. 
I have the music on when I cook. I fry onions and chant,
Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya...
Frid dig, frid dig, du Kristi brud...
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est...
Mithrandir, A Randir Vithren, ú-reniathach...
(This last one is not "real" sacral music, but nevertheless a lament over someone believed dead, and where that person has gone.)
I have the music on when I cook. I fry onions and chant, Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya...
Frid dig, frid dig, du Kristi brud...
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est...
Mithrandir, A Randir Vithren, ú-reniathach...
(This last one is not "real" sacral music, but nevertheless a lament over someone believed dead, and where that person has gone.)
That certainly is a dilemma and I have been wondering about it too. Now I have come to a point where I see no need to wonder about it anymore. I just accept things as they are. Indeed, I no longer hate or love illumination in whatever way it appears. It might be a yearning to say a prayer, so I say a prayer yet do not expect anything to happen. I prefer to have some existential anxiety because I feel it to be very honest and sincere. This might sound like I was trying to show off, but I am not a believer yet not a non-believer either. I just am. 
QUOTE (Dhyana @ Nov 6 2005, 12:42 PM)
I have been feeling that something is missing from my life as it is right now: the kind of mental cleaning or renewal that living in a spiritual community could provide. Temple ceremonies. Silent prayer. The part of japa that was about "zeroeing" one's mind, letting thoughts pass without getting caught up in them.
How important is community to you in this regard? Are you merely missing the spiritual practices, or is performing them in a community part of what you miss? I assume that it is a mix of these.
QUOTE
The closest I get to fulfilling the need for meditation that I feel, would be when I walk to work and back. Especially in the morning. It's peaceful, trees around. But it's so short.
I like walking in nature as well. Walks early in the morning are so soothing. I like it when it is a little chilly, but not too chilly, and you can feel the warmth of the sun on your skin. There are people here and there, but mostly the spaces are empty. To me that is a very conducive atmosphere to thinking. Perhaps you could go for longer walks during the weekends?
QUOTE
The closest I get to worship is listening to sacral music. I do it a lot, and it moves me. But it's too passive. But how on earth can I make it more active if I do not have a deity to worship, nor want to have one?
How about writing? Expressing yourself through art? Drawing, painting, or something like that.
I think even for some bhakti practitioners who believe in something and who have an active practise this kind of want is sometimes insatiable and the practise adds more anxious insatiability to it. I think one way to deal with this is to relish this as feelings of separation.
Why not do actual meditation?
You don't necessarily need to have a set belief in anything or not to practise concentration / absorption (aka dhyana!). You are after all named after that here.
Why not do actual meditation?
You don't necessarily need to have a set belief in anything or not to practise concentration / absorption (aka dhyana!). You are after all named after that here.
It is interesting that when ever I try to "practice" something, type regular chanting or even chanting for a prolonged time, like I was a member of an organized religion, I do not feel that great. One day I even tried to read one of ACBS:s books, but got very fast very tired and even upset of what I was reading. It was so repetitive and poor in rhetorics I could not believe it!
Luckily there are many other ways one can uphold spirituality. The "zeroing in" effect Dhyana was hankering after is something that can be achieved, I think, if one really wants, even by going for a long walk.
Luckily there are many other ways one can uphold spirituality. The "zeroing in" effect Dhyana was hankering after is something that can be achieved, I think, if one really wants, even by going for a long walk.
QUOTE (zanardi @ Nov 8 2005, 01:01 AM)
It is interesting that when ever I try to "practice" something, type regular chanting or even chanting for a prolonged time, like I was a member of an organized religion, I do not feel that great. One day I even tried to read one of ACBS:s books, but got very fast very tired and even upset of what I was reading. It was so repetitive and poor in rhetorics I could not believe it!
Luckily there are many other ways one can uphold spirituality. The "zeroing in" effect Dhyana was hankering after is something that can be achieved, I think, if one really wants, even by going for a long walk.
Luckily there are many other ways one can uphold spirituality. The "zeroing in" effect Dhyana was hankering after is something that can be achieved, I think, if one really wants, even by going for a long walk.
Ha! I told my samkirtana leader that I was having trouble reading the books because of just what you describe; I might as well have walked around the temple in the nude, I would have been better thought of!
QUOTE (evakurvan @ Nov 7 2005, 10:26 AM)
Why not do actual meditation?
This topic is rather interesting. After I quit chanting “the rounds” a few years back, I had the same feeling, that something was missing. Took me a few years but I think I finally got it down.
I mostly practice actual meditation, as outlined by Swami Venkatesananda in his commentary of Patanjali's “Yoga Sutras”. It's a basic non religious form of meditation, involving concentration and some pranayam. The idea is very basic self analysis, watching your mind generating thoughts and following them to the origin, tracing the reasons of their manifestation. It helps me a lot in organizing my mind and understanding myself.
I do also feel a need for some Vedic mantras, sometimes. I still rather enjoy chanting Narasimha Kavaca stotra. It seems to relax me, and help me with the stress. So does couple of Saraswati mantras, the main Buddhist mantra and Sufi poetry
And of course being in the nature is always nice. I love my time in the mountains either hiking, biking or snowboarding. My favorite is night time snowboarding. Not many people on the slopes. Just you, chilly night weather and the mountain.
Thank you all for your friendly and insightful comments. Zanardi, I like your "I prefer my existential anxiety" stance... And Evakurvans' angle that spiritual practice may aggravate our inner dependence on mind-cleansing techniques is well taken, too.
Some of the practices won't work in solitude. I liked the repetitive singing with a kirtan/bhajan leader. Choir is part of that. (yeah, mayavada merging tendencies
)
I will. I am promising myself to do it. The thing is, on a weekend it feels unsocial to go alone instead of with my husband. So we go together and that's very nice too, but... for that kind of walk one needs solitude...
Writing brings insight and satisfaction, it but rather depends on the meditative activities, it wouldn't replace them. Painting could be something to try! It's ages since I believed I could paint
Some years back, I spent most of my free time one whole winter knitting sweaters, listening to music. That was cool!
The best of all, I think, was gardening. Until December last year, when I moved, I had my own garden. That was just fantastic, heavenly, therapeutic, and a good workout.
I think I will try some real meditation, at least short moments. I teach a simple version of Mindfulness to my patients with anxiety disorders, so it shouldn't be so out of place to try it myself... Why should they have all the fun??! 
And Evakurvans' angle that spiritual practice may aggravate our inner dependence on mind-cleansing techniques is well taken, too.QUOTE (Oneiros @ Nov 6 2005, 08:45 PM)
How important is community to you in this regard? Are you merely missing the spiritual practices, or is performing them in a community part of what you miss? I assume that it is a mix of these.
Some of the practices won't work in solitude. I liked the repetitive singing with a kirtan/bhajan leader. Choir is part of that. (yeah, mayavada merging tendencies
)QUOTE
Perhaps you could go for longer walks during the weekends?
I will. I am promising myself to do it. The thing is, on a weekend it feels unsocial to go alone instead of with my husband. So we go together and that's very nice too, but... for that kind of walk one needs solitude...
QUOTE
How about writing? Expressing yourself through art? Drawing, painting, or something like that.
Writing brings insight and satisfaction, it but rather depends on the meditative activities, it wouldn't replace them. Painting could be something to try! It's ages since I believed I could paint
Some years back, I spent most of my free time one whole winter knitting sweaters, listening to music. That was cool!The best of all, I think, was gardening. Until December last year, when I moved, I had my own garden. That was just fantastic, heavenly, therapeutic, and a good workout.
I think I will try some real meditation, at least short moments. I teach a simple version of Mindfulness to my patients with anxiety disorders, so it shouldn't be so out of place to try it myself...
Why should they have all the fun??!
QUOTE
And of course being in the nature is always nice. I love my time in the mountains either hiking, biking or snowboarding. My favorite is night time snowboarding. Not many people on the slopes. Just you, chilly night weather and the mountain
Great heavens, Abhi, but at night it's dark! ... or?
Charging down the slope in darkness must be close to entering a bardo!
QUOTE (Dhyana @ Nov 7 2005, 12:04 PM)
QUOTE
And of course being in the nature is always nice. I love my time in the mountains either hiking, biking or snowboarding. My favorite is night time snowboarding. Not many people on the slopes. Just you, chilly night weather and the mountain
Great heavens, Abhi, but at night it's dark! ... or?
Charging down the slope in darkness must be close to entering a bardo!Not quite. One of the resorts light the trails on one of their mountains till about 10pm. During winter sun goes down around 4:30, so I have about 5 hours to snowboard in the dark. Especially fun on full Moon nights, while playing some down tempo beats on my iPOD
QUOTE (Abhi)
I still rather enjoy chanting Narasimha Kavaca stotra.
We were told by "authorities" that for a blooper, a non-devotee or a ghost-possessed person, even hearing it may be dangerous. Once a devotee got epileptic while hearing NK and because of that, most of my cell group thought that he is ghost-possessed.
(I hope you don't suffer from such side effects.
)
QUOTE (Chanahari @ Nov 7 2005, 03:42 PM)
We were told by "authorities" that for a blooper, a non-devotee or a ghost-possessed person, even hearing it may be dangerous. Once a devotee got epileptic while hearing NK and because of that, most of my cell group thought that he is ghost-possessed.
(I hope you don't suffer from such side effects. )
(I hope you don't suffer from such side effects.
)No, never had epileptic episodes or such.
I've heard all the argument about different modes of worship and different standards expected by different deities. However I always found them more or less made up, something you would expect a smarta to say. In the end just another reason to feel superior to those who left or never joined.
Spiritual Community can take on so many different meanings. My immediate response is to think of an ISKCON temple or a Catholic Church, because of my conditionings. I too feel a lack at times of being part of a larger family, but every time I go to my local temple, I feel like a visitor to an Indian Hindu cultural event. I sometimes run into old devotee friends but rarely feel like I can be my authentic self in front of them, especially when they start talking ISKCON speak (“Oh Prabhu, I have been feeling so fallen lately’ or “ Look at that visitor eating Prasadam, he will never be the same!”) Hence, I rarely ever go there. I have gone to other churches, ashrams, sangha’s, temples, and new age gatherings, but always feel like a visitor going to a stranger’s family reunion. I would imagine if you went often enough to a spiritual center of some kind, you will meet new people and start to be welcomed into the new community, but then there is the aspect of converting and becoming a member of an institution, which right now in my life, is not something I am interested because of my history of being a devotee.
I find the online community interesting and at times when it clicks it is great, but it is missing that human physical contact and exchange. Friends and family are good, even if they do not share all of your beliefs and history, and if your married or have a partner, then at least you have one person who makes up your small home community.
As far as a personal spiritual practice, I find insight meditation, a meditation based on the breath and being mindful, as a very helpful practical practice. Of course I am not a total unbeliever in Vaisnavism, still chant when the mood strikes, especially when I go for long walks. I approach chanting Hare Krsna in the most wrong way according to ISKCON, for I do it quietly and I use the mantra to go beyond thought, a vehicle to transcend normal thinking awareness. I don’t pray for serving Krsna or call out for his mercy, things like that, for after 18 years of trying that approach and just coming back to a busy crazy monkey mind with no apparent bhava appearing in my life or seeing it appear in the lives of others, I just gave up on that program. I also combine shamanic visualization techniques I have learned over the years into the program and find that I have a lot of choices for going with-in and being spiritual. But I do miss a community.
Art (Painting & Drawing) are very meditative exercises when you go with- in and be spontaneous with it, not to mention free writing can do the same. When using these modes of creativity as a spiritual exercise, it is important to not be attached to the results, but go with the flow of activity and accept whatever comes out onto the paper or page. Interesting things can appear and one can learn a lot of oneself and things you are releasing can be a key for growth.
I love this topic and really enjoyed reading everyone’s response!
I find the online community interesting and at times when it clicks it is great, but it is missing that human physical contact and exchange. Friends and family are good, even if they do not share all of your beliefs and history, and if your married or have a partner, then at least you have one person who makes up your small home community.
As far as a personal spiritual practice, I find insight meditation, a meditation based on the breath and being mindful, as a very helpful practical practice. Of course I am not a total unbeliever in Vaisnavism, still chant when the mood strikes, especially when I go for long walks. I approach chanting Hare Krsna in the most wrong way according to ISKCON, for I do it quietly and I use the mantra to go beyond thought, a vehicle to transcend normal thinking awareness. I don’t pray for serving Krsna or call out for his mercy, things like that, for after 18 years of trying that approach and just coming back to a busy crazy monkey mind with no apparent bhava appearing in my life or seeing it appear in the lives of others, I just gave up on that program. I also combine shamanic visualization techniques I have learned over the years into the program and find that I have a lot of choices for going with-in and being spiritual. But I do miss a community.
Art (Painting & Drawing) are very meditative exercises when you go with- in and be spontaneous with it, not to mention free writing can do the same. When using these modes of creativity as a spiritual exercise, it is important to not be attached to the results, but go with the flow of activity and accept whatever comes out onto the paper or page. Interesting things can appear and one can learn a lot of oneself and things you are releasing can be a key for growth.
I love this topic and really enjoyed reading everyone’s response!
Me too. I also love this topic and could see myself in many of the points Kalisurfer brought up. Dhyana, you are very much a writer. You express yourself so that even a fool like me who is not that good in English can understand what you mean. That could be a good venue for your zeroing in practices. Free writing could suit you even better than the more academic sort. Just remember to share the wildest ramblings! 
To be honest, I do miss spiritual practices. Perhaps I should be more clear. I miss a sense of belonging, of being at peace with the world and its inhabitants. I am not sure that such a feeling will necessarily arise from spiritual practices.
I wrote this a year or two ago:
I am in the process of thinking it all over again. There is a need for me to reinvent myself.
I wrote this a year or two ago:
QUOTE
I have not prayed for years. Before meeting the devotees I did not pray, and it was only during a brief span of time while involved with them that I engaged in this activity. When I lived in the Danish temple, I would always rise very early, at 1:30 AM. One reason was that I am somewhat introverted and by getting up this early I was able to avoid other people while showering, dressing and chanting. Another reason was the special mood that prevailed in the temple room when everybody else was asleep. It was a nice time to chant, to reflect and to pray. And I did pray. However, one morning something unusual happened. I was sitting by a wall, reciting a prayer. Then, suddenly, a new thought entered my mind: "You are conversing with god, yet you are the only one talking." I think that was the exact point where I lost my faith. A feeling that this whole scenario was ridiculous filled me. Is god transcendent, impersonal and unemotional, or is he immanent, personal and emotional? If the former, why pray at all? If the latter, then why is there no substantial reciprocation? Human beings--friends, family, etc.--all their faults aside, do reciprocate directly. My experience, on the other hand, was that there was no direct reciprocation when I approached god. I had tried to see the hand of god in my daily experiences, trying to interpret the events of my life in a meaningful way, one in which god was speaking to me through them. But that, too, began to strike me as unsatisfying, ridiculous even. Are we to imagine some "sacred history" in our own lives? Is it really so that god, like some ancient oracle, communicate with us through vague hints and ambiguous statements derived from events in our daily lives, hints that lend themselves to multiple interpretations so as to absolve god from blame when we suffer as a result of having drawn the wrong conclusion from them, like Croesus who in ancient times lost his kingdom due to the wrong interpretation of an oracle's statement?
A more full understanding of what I felt back then did not arise in me me before I read this paragraph by Gabriel Josipovici: "When in a room by ourselves, we hold one hand in the other, we do not call that 'holding hands'. When, in a room by ourselves, we reach out towards our hand in a mirror and meet only the coldness of the glass, we do not call that touching. On the contrary, both are a sour parody of touch, born of and fuelling our sense of dejection, the sense of existing in a world which remains stonily indifferent to our needs and desires." Now I see my position much more clearly. Not only was I the only one talking, I was the only one present. All along it was just myself holding my own hand and stretching out to touch my own image in a mirror. I imagined that it was god's hand that I held, that it was god's image that I stretched out to reach, but I was in error. There was no touching in the real sense of the word, and thus ultimately I was left unsatisfied, dejected and depressed. Had only a Zarathustra descended in my life and told me that "God is dead," then perhaps I would not have wasted so much time, but would have seen clearly that god never entered the stage, that it was all about me introducing god as a means to validate my life, my values and my beliefs.
A more full understanding of what I felt back then did not arise in me me before I read this paragraph by Gabriel Josipovici: "When in a room by ourselves, we hold one hand in the other, we do not call that 'holding hands'. When, in a room by ourselves, we reach out towards our hand in a mirror and meet only the coldness of the glass, we do not call that touching. On the contrary, both are a sour parody of touch, born of and fuelling our sense of dejection, the sense of existing in a world which remains stonily indifferent to our needs and desires." Now I see my position much more clearly. Not only was I the only one talking, I was the only one present. All along it was just myself holding my own hand and stretching out to touch my own image in a mirror. I imagined that it was god's hand that I held, that it was god's image that I stretched out to reach, but I was in error. There was no touching in the real sense of the word, and thus ultimately I was left unsatisfied, dejected and depressed. Had only a Zarathustra descended in my life and told me that "God is dead," then perhaps I would not have wasted so much time, but would have seen clearly that god never entered the stage, that it was all about me introducing god as a means to validate my life, my values and my beliefs.
I am in the process of thinking it all over again. There is a need for me to reinvent myself.
That set my mind off on a tangent, wondering what it would be like if, indeed, God communicated as directly with us as I am communicating now. Say we each had a telepathic communication with God. We ask a mental question and receive an immediate mental answer. (Of course if this happened to just one of us the tendency would be to assume some mental illness--even the recipient of the message would have to wonder about him or her self.)
If this happened to everyone, all throughout the world we'd be talking about our latest message from God. And that seems like a wonderful thing.
But then I wondered about misrepresentation and poor memory. What if we went around distorting what God said to us? Would it get confusing? Would God have to constantly correct us? "No, I didn't say that!"
What if we tried to apply our individual advice to everyone, even though it was meant only for us? Would the number of religions proliferate? So far we seem to have a fair number of them just from the few people who claim God did reveal things to them.
If God always talked to us, and we asked his advice on everything, would we ever do anything on our own? Or would we run to God constantly, like an insecure child?
Might it be that he chooses not to speak to us for some good reasons?
That said, I do get the sense that there's someone in the room with me when I pray, and when I ask a question in the right way I do seem to get an answer of sorts. I'm willing to concede that it may be my imagination. But what if it isn't?
If this happened to everyone, all throughout the world we'd be talking about our latest message from God. And that seems like a wonderful thing.
But then I wondered about misrepresentation and poor memory. What if we went around distorting what God said to us? Would it get confusing? Would God have to constantly correct us? "No, I didn't say that!"
What if we tried to apply our individual advice to everyone, even though it was meant only for us? Would the number of religions proliferate? So far we seem to have a fair number of them just from the few people who claim God did reveal things to them.
If God always talked to us, and we asked his advice on everything, would we ever do anything on our own? Or would we run to God constantly, like an insecure child?
Might it be that he chooses not to speak to us for some good reasons?
That said, I do get the sense that there's someone in the room with me when I pray, and when I ask a question in the right way I do seem to get an answer of sorts. I'm willing to concede that it may be my imagination. But what if it isn't?
QUOTE (Oneiros @ Nov 8 2005, 08:43 AM)
A more full understanding of what I felt back then did not arise in me me before I read this paragraph by Gabriel Josipovici: "When in a room by ourselves, we hold one hand in the other, we do not call that 'holding hands'. When, in a room by ourselves, we reach out towards our hand in a mirror and meet only the coldness of the glass, we do not call that touching. On the contrary, both are a sour parody of touch, born of and fuelling our sense of dejection, the sense of existing in a world which remains stonily indifferent to our needs and desires." Now I see my position much more clearly. Not only was I the only one talking, I was the only one present. All along it was just myself holding my own hand and stretching out to touch my own image in a mirror. I imagined that it was god's hand that I held, that it was god's image that I stretched out to reach, but I was in error. There was no touching in the real sense of the word, and thus ultimately I was left unsatisfied, dejected and depressed. Had only a Zarathustra descended in my life and told me that "God is dead," then perhaps I would not have wasted so much time, but would have seen clearly that god never entered the stage, that it was all about me introducing god as a means to validate my life, my values and my beliefs.
Very interesting indeed. I find your logic very existential. Nietzsche would be proud.
I tend to think myself along those lines sometimes. But don't you think we are influenced and conditioned to think this way just because we grew up in Northern Europe? Maybe the gray nasty weather, short winter days, terrible economical structures push us to think that world is unfair and thus we come to conclusion that "God is dead".
But didn't we end up here because "we wanted to be Gods ourselves", we rebelled against God, and wanted the existence without higher being? Maybe in the end God is only exercising our choice to free will, and is not communicating to us for our own good?
Or maybe we are supposed to develop love in mode of separation? Isn't that the highest love sought after by bhaktas?
Or maybe God is like a kid with a magnifying glass, looking at the big ant house, trying to figure out what each of the ants think, which one was good and which one was bad. In the end giving up the impossible task, and deciding to smite them all either with magnifying glass or gasoline, or just a water hose
So why do we automatically assume that there is no God just because he doesn't talk to us?
(Kalisurfer)
This is so well expressed, and exactly how I feel!
It seems the HK experience has spoiled these things for me. I have had one beautiful and very moving interfaith experience, but that was before I became a devotee. I had no religious identity at that time, maybe that made the difference. I was 19 and went to a night vigil for youth at the city cathedral. It was a blend of elements of various Christian Masses. We participated actively and no prior experience was assumed, we rehearsed and learned everything together. Everyone got a candle to hold. We chanted Taizé canons for three voices. Heavenly.
We sang psalms. The highlight, for me, was a chant from something called Akatist, I believe from the Greek Orthodox tradition. 
(Maybe Preyobrazhenya would know) It went on the entire night.
A precious memory.
QUOTE
I too feel a lack at times of being part of a larger family, but every time I go to my local temple, I feel like a visitor to an Indian Hindu cultural event. I sometimes run into old devotee friends but rarely feel like I can be my authentic self in front of them, especially when they start talking ISKCON speak (“Oh Prabhu, I have been feeling so fallen lately’ or “ Look at that visitor eating Prasadam, he will never be the same!”) Hence, I rarely ever go there. I have gone to other churches, ashrams, sangha’s, temples, and new age gatherings, but always feel like a visitor going to a stranger’s family reunion.
This is so well expressed, and exactly how I feel!
It seems the HK experience has spoiled these things for me. I have had one beautiful and very moving interfaith experience, but that was before I became a devotee. I had no religious identity at that time, maybe that made the difference. I was 19 and went to a night vigil for youth at the city cathedral. It was a blend of elements of various Christian Masses. We participated actively and no prior experience was assumed, we rehearsed and learned everything together. Everyone got a candle to hold. We chanted Taizé canons for three voices. Heavenly.
We sang psalms. The highlight, for me, was a chant from something called Akatist, I believe from the Greek Orthodox tradition. (Maybe Preyobrazhenya would know) It went on the entire night.A precious memory.
Your experience sounds so familiar, Oneiros. We have such a need for something greater than us, validating us. It's both disappointing and scary to realize it looks like we will have to go on living without that validation. But, given that you have only yourself for existential validation, you could have been worse off -- considering the wonderful, insghtful person you are. I can imagine a much less satisfying God 
(Abhi)
For me, it wasn't "automatic". I kept excusing and reinterpreting his silence for years. I realized at one point that a potted plant I cared for reciprocated with me more readily than God, whose name I called for hours every day! Anthony De Mello has said once, "God loves you at least as much as that person in your life who loves you the most." No one, among those I love, would have given me the silent treatment my hypothesized God was doing -- regardless the reasons. There may still be a God existing, but the way he relates to me stretches the boundaries of what I can relate to, much too far. He may exist but he is not relevant to my experience.
(Abhi)
QUOTE
So why do we automatically assume that there is no God just because he doesn't talk to us?
For me, it wasn't "automatic". I kept excusing and reinterpreting his silence for years. I realized at one point that a potted plant I cared for reciprocated with me more readily than God, whose name I called for hours every day! Anthony De Mello has said once, "God loves you at least as much as that person in your life who loves you the most." No one, among those I love, would have given me the silent treatment my hypothesized God was doing -- regardless the reasons. There may still be a God existing, but the way he relates to me stretches the boundaries of what I can relate to, much too far. He may exist but he is not relevant to my experience.
QUOTE (Dhyana @ Nov 8 2005, 01:44 PM)
For me, it wasn't "automatic". I kept excusing and reinterpreting his silence for years. I realized at one point that a potted plant I cared for reciprocated with me more readily than God, whose name I called for hours every day! Anthony De Mello has said once, "God loves you at least as much as that person in your life who loves you the most." No one, among those I love, would have given me the silent treatment my hypothesized God was doing -- regardless the reasons. There may still be a God existing, but the way he relates to me stretches the boundaries of what I can relate to, much too far. He may exist but he is not relevant to my experience.
Interesting. And you never questioned practice itself?
I came to similar conclusions as yourself, after leaving ISKCON. Which in it's turn put me in a depressed state of mind, followed by techno and goth scenes and X abuse.
But at the end I came to question the practice itself. I discovered that ISKCON was much more sectarian than I was perhaps ready to accept. That while practicing it's doctrines, spirituality was less important to me than the social aspect of it. In the end the focus on spirituality was totally lost on me.
And in the end my 7 years of 16 rounds a day didn't amount to anything. There was no concentration, there was no understanding of what I was doing and why. It was mindless repetition and nothing else.
Later on, after I got tired of constant self destruction, I went back to ashtanga yoga, practice that I enjoyed in my early teen years, before joining ISKCON. I also re-read some of the existentialist that helped to shape my understanding in childhood. And in the end perhaps immersing myself in material life, helped me put things in perspective.
I got back into philosophy, but perhaps more into technical asspects than ones based on blind faith. I enjoy Patanjali's system and Sufi way. It's much more precise and non fanatical. Sufis give you precise instructions what to do at your level of consciousness and they have up to 13 elements (or stages) of progress instead of telling you to chant your rounds and leaving you to your own mind.
In the end I don't know if I believe in God. But I do believe in higher knowledge, I believe that consumerist society is not all that there is to this world and all I strive for is understanding. As long as I feel that I am learning more, I am understanding more, I will be happy. Perhaps I converted from the idea of reaching a goal to the idea of enjoying the path. I don't really care where it leads.
Just some thoughts...
QUOTE (Tapati @ Nov 8 2005, 01:01 PM)
That said, I do get the sense that there's someone in the room with me when I pray, and when I ask a question in the right way I do seem to get an answer of sorts. I'm willing to concede that it may be my imagination. But what if it isn't?
Hey Tapati, your statemet really hit a chord inside me.
When and where does God (Spirit, Energy, Highest Truth) speak to us is pretty interesting thing to think about. As much as I cannot relate anymore to many of the teachings of Krsna Consciousness, I also believe in something or somebody out there (or inside here) that is with me. It is a profound feeling based on just years of searching and practicing varied spiritual practices. It comes to light when I suddenly change lanes while driving the car for no apparent reason and then suddenly see an accident take place right in the spot I should have been in. Inexplicable things that just happen that cannot be explained with logic or any science. Like running into constant delays only to by chance bumping into somebody you have not seen in a long time, but if not for any of the delays, would never have happened. Just to be alive and cruising through life in the specific personality that makes you who you are is pretty miraculous really. Watching the sun rise, all so large, bright orange and bringing light to the world, thinking that in all reality, as I stand here on this flat earth, I am really standing sideways on a planet revolving around a sun in a universe full of suns and even more universes, well … is pretty beyond thinking that this is all happening by chance and there is no creator or higher source of creation that just put this all together.
As sour and angry that I can become when looking back on my years in the KC experience, I would be a huge hypocrite not state that I do believe in a God, Higher Source, Energy, Personality, Light, Big Kahuna, Godfather, Godmother, Big Chief, Big Poet in the Sky, Producer/Director of all movies, Lead Singer, Master Potter, Lead Guitar Player, King Fish, Queen Mum, Prince of Peace, Grand Pupah, Head Honcho, Pace Car, Locomotive, Front Engine, Lead Horse, Master Tailor, Chief Architect, CEO, Engineer, Diva, Master Gardener, C Chord, G String, A Bomb, Da 1, Om, Alpha Omega; that something of somewhere that you can just feel-—when all else just fails!
Nice thread (vicitrasUtra), this.
The other question was worship, and whether the need for it could be met by a nonbeliever. The need for worship made me into a believer for 20 years. Once upon a time (1979) during meditation, I found an abstract but very satisfying solution to the subject object conundrum that puzzeld me then. My awareness was the elastic surface of a gigantic toroid, constantly moving about the toroidal space enclosed within itself, while at the same time being enclosed in the entirety of space. Something like that, a little hard to describe. Yet at that time it answered my existential questions.
When I returned from my meditation, I thought "Now I understand how it works! Wouldn't it be nice if there was a person to whom I could express how thankful I am?" Somehow Krishna became the target of my gratitude. In retrospect it makes sense. I had read some books about Krishna then, and he was the most exotic candidate. I wonder what I would do today if I felt the need to say "thank you!" Well, actually, it happens from time to time. I just jump up and down, wave my arms, snap my fingers and shout, "hey, great, this is really cool! and so simple! who would have thought that? thanks indeed!" And it doesn't matter that the target of my gratitude remains unnamed, even undefined. It seems more important to me to be able to share my thoughts or tell another person how happy (or sad) I am. Perhaps, if one has no other person, or trusts no other person, then god is a good Ersatzmensch.
ePiTau
The other question was worship, and whether the need for it could be met by a nonbeliever. The need for worship made me into a believer for 20 years. Once upon a time (1979) during meditation, I found an abstract but very satisfying solution to the subject object conundrum that puzzeld me then. My awareness was the elastic surface of a gigantic toroid, constantly moving about the toroidal space enclosed within itself, while at the same time being enclosed in the entirety of space. Something like that, a little hard to describe. Yet at that time it answered my existential questions.
When I returned from my meditation, I thought "Now I understand how it works! Wouldn't it be nice if there was a person to whom I could express how thankful I am?" Somehow Krishna became the target of my gratitude. In retrospect it makes sense. I had read some books about Krishna then, and he was the most exotic candidate. I wonder what I would do today if I felt the need to say "thank you!" Well, actually, it happens from time to time. I just jump up and down, wave my arms, snap my fingers and shout, "hey, great, this is really cool! and so simple! who would have thought that? thanks indeed!" And it doesn't matter that the target of my gratitude remains unnamed, even undefined. It seems more important to me to be able to share my thoughts or tell another person how happy (or sad) I am. Perhaps, if one has no other person, or trusts no other person, then god is a good Ersatzmensch.
QUOTE
Laß die Moleküle rasen,
was sie auch zusammenknobeln!
Laß das Tüfteln, laß das Hobeln,
heilig halte die Ekstasen. (Christian Morgenstern).
English translationwas sie auch zusammenknobeln!
Laß das Tüfteln, laß das Hobeln,
heilig halte die Ekstasen. (Christian Morgenstern).
QUOTE
Leave the molecules in peace,
Let them rush in all directions!
Shun revisions and corrections,
Hold in awe your ecstasies. (Max Knight)
Let them rush in all directions!
Shun revisions and corrections,
Hold in awe your ecstasies. (Max Knight)
ePiTau
QUOTE (Abhi @ Nov 8 2005, 10:03 PM)
QUOTE (Dhyana @ Nov 8 2005, 01:44 PM)
For me, it wasn't "automatic". I kept excusing and reinterpreting his silence for years.
Interesting. And you never questioned practice itself?
Good point. I did. Of course. But at the end of the day, what kind of mother wouldn't respond to her child's need, even if the child tries to call her attention in all the wrong ways -- say, mispronouncing her name (=shortcomings in practice). Or even beating his younger siblings, or telling lies and stealing (=offenses).
God is omniscient and loving, right? It's not like he didn't know that I tried to make contact with him because I got the postal address wrong so he never got the letter. And it's not like he didn't know in what language to respond so that I would be encouraged and keep trying.
QUOTE
I came to similar conclusions as yourself, after leaving ISKCON. Which in it's turn put me in a depressed state of mind, followed by techno and goth scenes and X abuse.
X abuse? Sounds interesting. What is it? Is it cool?
QUOTE (Dhyana @ Nov 9 2005, 02:17 PM)
Good point. I did. Of course. But at the end of the day, what kind of mother wouldn't respond to her child's need, even if the child tries to call her attention in all the wrong ways -- say, mispronouncing her name (=shortcomings in practice). Or even beating his younger siblings, or telling lies and stealing (=offenses).
Interesting point. But wouldn't you use "silent treatment" if your kid misbehaves badly?
And I suppose most religious philosophies agree that God is everywhere and in everything. So maybe we need to learn to listen and to see, and not expect to be able to perceive and integrate God into our 3 dimensional world, using our linear perceptions.
In the end I don't know if God is a person as gaudiyas describe him/her. All I can really do is try to understand myself first, maybe then I will understand God or nature, or whatever is higher than my current level.
Even if there is no God, there is still nature that has no beginning and end. And if nature evolves ad infinitum, shouldn't human evolution also be unlimited? And evolution of thought can't really progress without self understanding.
QUOTE (Dhyana @ Nov 9 2005, 02:17 PM)
X abuse? Sounds interesting. What is it? Is it cool?
Chemical compounds known as MDMA or MDME, otherwise known as Adam and Eve. During my DJ days it was my drug of choice. Was it fun? Yes, lots. But the next day was always less fun
After I quit the scene, took a few years to get my serotonin levels back to normal, or at least I hope they are back to normal
I find Dhyanas logic here overwhelming. "Silent treatment" how ever much you point out that the individual has a free will, adds up only to show how limited resources allmighty God has to guide us to the right path. I am also fond of Abhis God in nature, nature in God and in all that we perceive way of thinking. To me, physical exercise has always been an meditative experience, mountainbiking being one of the best. OK, free endorphins that come along with training do not harm, either.
BTW, from now on when somebody mentions X-this or that, I will always think of: the movie xXx, Vin Diesel and our Abhi. Is Abhi Vin Diesel, or is his actual name Abhi Vin Diesel?
BTW, from now on when somebody mentions X-this or that, I will always think of: the movie xXx, Vin Diesel and our Abhi. Is Abhi Vin Diesel, or is his actual name Abhi Vin Diesel?
I just want to add a short comment for now.
I can relate very well to Dhyana's comment that "he may exist but he is not relevant to my experience." This is how I have been feeling for a long time. If God does not relate to us in a way that is meaningful and relevant to us, then how is he relevant at all?
It is similar to the problem of evil. We perceive pervasive suffering and evil in the world. Now, if this is not evil in the eyes of God, from whom all things come, then what moral relevance does God have for us? It seems at best a bit remote for passionate worship and love.
Frankl uses the example of lab rats. The rats are used for testing and in their eyes the world is full of suffering and pain. However, there is a higher purpose: their lives and suffering helps save human beings. We can similarly think that there is a higher purpose and that our sufferings is a part of that. But, ultimately, what relevance does that higher purpose have in our world? How relevant is the saving of human beings ultimately in the world of rats?
I can relate very well to Dhyana's comment that "he may exist but he is not relevant to my experience." This is how I have been feeling for a long time. If God does not relate to us in a way that is meaningful and relevant to us, then how is he relevant at all?
It is similar to the problem of evil. We perceive pervasive suffering and evil in the world. Now, if this is not evil in the eyes of God, from whom all things come, then what moral relevance does God have for us? It seems at best a bit remote for passionate worship and love.
Frankl uses the example of lab rats. The rats are used for testing and in their eyes the world is full of suffering and pain. However, there is a higher purpose: their lives and suffering helps save human beings. We can similarly think that there is a higher purpose and that our sufferings is a part of that. But, ultimately, what relevance does that higher purpose have in our world? How relevant is the saving of human beings ultimately in the world of rats?
I feel(how exact is that?)that there is a spiritual dimension. I am open to it, but because it leaves me to lead my own life the best I can, I see no particular reason to bind myself to some particular tradition of worship. I do believe that a dose of cosmic melancholy is healthy for each and all, and that one should not join some cult or practice religion to get rid of that tinge of uneasiness. It is medicine that helps you keep your life and heart in good shape. Mostly people try run away from their human condition of life and take shelter in you name it what. You cant run away from yourself. That is how I think.
QUOTE (zanardi @ Nov 10 2005, 05:21 AM)
BTW, from now on when somebody mentions X-this or that, I will always think of: the movie xXx, Vin Diesel and our Abhi. Is Abhi Vin Diesel, or is his actual name Abhi Vin Diesel?
LOL. I think there is probably a good 50kgs of steroids separating me from Vin Diesel
QUOTE (Oneiros @ Nov 10 2005, 08:50 AM)
Frankl uses the example of lab rats. The rats are used for testing and in their eyes the world is full of suffering and pain. However, there is a higher purpose: their lives and suffering helps save human beings. We can similarly think that there is a higher purpose and that our sufferings is a part of that. But, ultimately, what relevance does that higher purpose have in our world? How relevant is the saving of human beings ultimately in the world of rats?
The lab rat example. Hm... Sounds a lot like Scientology. They believe that this planet is an alien prison. But even they believe in thetan (soul) and in betterment of yourself and evolution of your true being.
Who knows maybe after we die, our thetan will be pulled into a Marcab established "report station" and be implanted into another body and brainwashed again. The only way to avoid this fate is to become an operating thetan
Oh how I would be pissed if scientologists are right
QUOTE (zanardi @ Nov 10 2005, 05:21 AM)
the right path. I am also fond of Abhis God in nature, nature in God and in all that we perceive way of thinking. To me, physical exercise has always been an meditative experience, mountainbiking being one of the best. OK, free endorphins that come along with training do not harm, either.
Yes, maybe in the end I believe in God because I live in Colorado.
Maybe believe in God is directly proportional to how much sun light you get and how many endorphins you pump through your brain
Yes, Dhyana I can relate to what you are saying.
I have my own hangups and inspirations due to individual experiences in my spiritual 'career' which I wont go into but have been thinking about a little more than usual lately...
I want to believe I am recieving some karmic payback from some previous life, or that perhaps I am deep in St. John's dark night of the soul and will emerge purified, or, maybe I don't really want spirituality at all and should just drink beer and watch porn.
I think existential suffereing is increased by my once deeply held beliefs of possible transcendence and liberaton in this life. I assume I am now doing something wrong. But yet another part of me feels it is artificial to contrive some practice or feeling when it is not there.
So actually you see there are about half of a dozen people in my head lately, and half of them want a cold beer and a good TV show and forget about all this stuff, and of the other three one is a Hare Krishna, one a Mayavadi, and one a tantric, and they are all fighting amongst themselves as well as with the Beer and TV dudes.
I have my own hangups and inspirations due to individual experiences in my spiritual 'career' which I wont go into but have been thinking about a little more than usual lately...
I want to believe I am recieving some karmic payback from some previous life, or that perhaps I am deep in St. John's dark night of the soul and will emerge purified, or, maybe I don't really want spirituality at all and should just drink beer and watch porn.
I think existential suffereing is increased by my once deeply held beliefs of possible transcendence and liberaton in this life. I assume I am now doing something wrong. But yet another part of me feels it is artificial to contrive some practice or feeling when it is not there.
So actually you see there are about half of a dozen people in my head lately, and half of them want a cold beer and a good TV show and forget about all this stuff, and of the other three one is a Hare Krishna, one a Mayavadi, and one a tantric, and they are all fighting amongst themselves as well as with the Beer and TV dudes.
(abhi)
Perhaps. But not to the point where my child begins to suspect he has no mother at all. Besides, apart from all my possible offenses, there was a direct call to God and that call was sincere. He could have found a way to respond both to the mischief and to the calling.
QUOTE
Interesting point. But wouldn't you use "silent treatment" if your kid misbehaves badly?
Perhaps. But not to the point where my child begins to suspect he has no mother at all. Besides, apart from all my possible offenses, there was a direct call to God and that call was sincere. He could have found a way to respond both to the mischief and to the calling.
(angrezi)
I think so, too. It's easier to hold that "there is no real love", and be at peace with that, when one has never been in love and dared to believe it was real.
Omigod, what an image!
Don't the beer and TV dudes have an edge over the religious crowd? They would be less likely to fight among themselves, right?
QUOTE
I think existential suffereing is increased by my once deeply held beliefs of possible transcendence and liberaton in this life.
I think so, too. It's easier to hold that "there is no real love", and be at peace with that, when one has never been in love and dared to believe it was real.
QUOTE
So actually you see there are about half of a dozen people in my head lately, and half of them want a cold beer and a good TV show and forget about all this stuff, and of the other three one is a Hare Krishna, one a Mayavadi, and one a tantric, and they are all fighting amongst themselves as well as with the Beer and TV dudes.
Omigod, what an image!
Don't the beer and TV dudes have an edge over the religious crowd? They would be less likely to fight among themselves, right?
QUOTE (angrezi @ Nov 11 2005, 07:49 PM)
Yes, Dhyana I can relate to what you are saying.
I have my own hangups and inspirations due to individual experiences in my spiritual 'career' which I wont go into but have been thinking about a little more than usual lately...
I want to believe I am recieving some karmic payback from some previous life, or that perhaps I am deep in St. John's dark night of the soul and will emerge purified, or, maybe I don't really want spirituality at all and should just drink beer and watch porn.
I think existential suffereing is increased by my once deeply held beliefs of possible transcendence and liberaton in this life. I assume I am now doing something wrong. But yet another part of me feels it is artificial to contrive some practice or feeling when it is not there.
So actually you see there are about half of a dozen people in my head lately, and half of them want a cold beer and a good TV show and forget about all this stuff, and of the other three one is a Hare Krishna, one a Mayavadi, and one a tantric, and they are all fighting amongst themselves as well as with the Beer and TV dudes.
I have my own hangups and inspirations due to individual experiences in my spiritual 'career' which I wont go into but have been thinking about a little more than usual lately...
I want to believe I am recieving some karmic payback from some previous life, or that perhaps I am deep in St. John's dark night of the soul and will emerge purified, or, maybe I don't really want spirituality at all and should just drink beer and watch porn.
I think existential suffereing is increased by my once deeply held beliefs of possible transcendence and liberaton in this life. I assume I am now doing something wrong. But yet another part of me feels it is artificial to contrive some practice or feeling when it is not there.
So actually you see there are about half of a dozen people in my head lately, and half of them want a cold beer and a good TV show and forget about all this stuff, and of the other three one is a Hare Krishna, one a Mayavadi, and one a tantric, and they are all fighting amongst themselves as well as with the Beer and TV dudes.
Hmm...I think you should freely associate with all of them. When they mingle together and without pressure long enough, it will turn out alright. It is just that they feel uneasy in the beginning, but it is nothing that a cold beer and a good TV-show wont cure. You are a multifaceted personality and there is nothing wrong with that.
Just one comment I would like to add, regarding the half dozen people inside Angrezi. People who are just into one thing, may it be just GV or just drinking beer, are usually pretty boring people. I am glad there is plenty of action and some contradictory feelings inside you. You are alive!
Greetings: fellow traveller in space.
Greetings: fellow traveller in space.
QUOTE (Abhi @ Nov 10 2005, 05:37 PM)
Who knows maybe after we die, our thetan will be pulled into a Marcab established "report station" and be implanted into another body and brainwashed again. The only way to avoid this fate is to become an operating thetan
Does Marcab checks the archives of the Org to know whether you are an OT when you die?
Or you can be an OT just by your own efforts, and in this case, they test you yourself?
It is not all the same.
QUOTE (Abhi @ Nov 11 2005, 12:40 AM)
QUOTE (zanardi @ Nov 10 2005, 05:21 AM)
the right path. I am also fond of Abhis God in nature, nature in God and in all that we perceive way of thinking. To me, physical exercise has always been an meditative experience, mountainbiking being one of the best. OK, free endorphins that come along with training do not harm, either.
Yes, maybe in the end I believe in God because I live in Colorado.
Maybe believe in God is directly proportional to how much sun light you get and how many endorphins you pump through your brain
Maybe the inverse is true, too? The population of sun starved lilly-white, cloistered monks and nuns in the world may have their own theories. But, it does seem most of them are happy to keep reinterpreting the same old texts and looking for God in the minutiae.
QUOTE (Homer @ Nov 12 2005, 08:33 AM)
QUOTE (angrezi @ Nov 12 2005, 02:49 AM)
I want to believe I am recieving some karmic payback from some previous life, or that perhaps I am deep in St. John's dark night of the soul and will emerge purified, or, maybe I don't really want spirituality at all and should just drink beer and watch porn.
Funny, there is a 'sannyasi' many are aware of here in Australia that seems to share this quandary.
I appreciate your response Zanardi too. And Dhyana:
QUOTE
Omigod, what an image! laugh.gif Don't the beer and TV dudes have an edge over the religious crowd? They would be less likely to fight among themselves, right?
My TV dudes don't have much to fight about since we only get 3 channels. But God save me if we ever get cable. The beer dudes like certain religious beer, like some Belgian ales brewed by Trappist monks, so they skirt the defences of the non-beer religionists within.
I wasn't honest in the post above. Trappist ale is available, but very expensive here, so I don't know the taste, but we three agree with them in spirit.
I have moved some of the recent posts here to a new thread:
http://www.gaudiya-repercussions.com/index...owtopic=860&hl=
http://www.gaudiya-repercussions.com/index...owtopic=860&hl=
QUOTE (Chanahari @ Nov 12 2005, 05:59 AM)
Does Marcab checks the archives of the Org to know whether you are an OT when you die?
Or you can be an OT just by your own efforts, and in this case, they test you yourself?
It is not all the same.
Or you can be an OT just by your own efforts, and in this case, they test you yourself?
It is not all the same.
These kind of esoteric details are revealed to you at pre-clear level. Only few select people really have the money to get up there. In other words ask Tom Cruise or John Trevolta
QUOTE (Homer @ Nov 12 2005, 06:18 AM)
Maybe the inverse is true, too? The population of sun starved lilly-white, cloistered monks and nuns in the world may have their own theories. But, it does seem most of them are happy to keep reinterpreting the same old texts and looking for God in the minutiae.
Maybe those are two different schools of believe. The sun deprived sadomasochistic monks and nuns believe in angry all-smiting God. They believe that everything that feels good is evil and self punishment is the only way to reach heaven.
I have hard time with that kind of God. To paraphrase Nietzsche “I would believe in God that can dance”
QUOTE (Abhi @ Nov 15 2005, 12:40 AM)
QUOTE (Homer @ Nov 12 2005, 06:18 AM)
Maybe the inverse is true, too? The population of sun starved lilly-white, cloistered monks and nuns in the world may have their own theories. But, it does seem most of them are happy to keep reinterpreting the same old texts and looking for God in the minutiae.
Maybe those are two different schools of believe. The sun deprived sadomasochistic monks and nuns believe in angry all-smiting God. They believe that everything that feels good is evil and self punishment is the only way to reach heaven.
I have hard time with that kind of God. To paraphrase Nietzsche “I would believe in God that can dance”
One of the reasons I was attracted to Krsna Consciousness was the wonderful image of a fun loving musician God told to me by smiling devotees.
Then I started to read.
QUOTE
For me, it wasn't "automatic". I kept excusing and reinterpreting his silence for years. I realized at one point that a potted plant I cared for reciprocated with me more readily than God, whose name I called for hours every day! Anthony De Mello has said once, "God loves you at least as much as that person in your life who loves you the most." No one, among those I love, would have given me the silent treatment my hypothesized God was doing -- regardless the reasons. There may still be a God existing, but the way he relates to me stretches the boundaries of what I can relate to, much too far. He may exist but he is not relevant to my experience.
Dhyana, what kind of reciprocation with God would suit you, that is you consider wholesome and spiritually healthy? And what would do if one day all of a sudden God would speak to you and reciprocate with you exactly in the way you have imagined all those years you were calling His and Her name?
that's a great question
QUOTE (Milla @ Nov 16 2005, 09:16 PM)
Dhyana, what kind of reciprocation with God would suit you, that is you consider wholesome and spiritually healthy? And what would do if one day all of a sudden God would speak to you and reciprocate with you exactly in the way you have imagined all those years you were calling His and Her name?
Good question indeed, and hard to answer. Of course I imagined that I would, at one point, experience a direct personal contact with a wonderful, perfect Person -- a strong felt sense of being in his presence and of receiving a communication from him, or being able to tell him something and knowing I am heard.
I knew this could not be expected until I became quite advanced. So it didn't bother me that much. I cultivated the attitude of being in such an exchange, I prayed and tried to hear his answer, and that appeared a good enough measure for the time being. But I thought that even while still a relative neophyte -- a regular ISKCON devotee -- I should be experiencing an increasing sense of being aligned with the greater purpose behind existence. You could perhaps call it "the intent of God". I believed it could translate into having a clearer sense of right and wrong, of why things happen the way they do, of what is my specific calling in the greater scheme of things. I reasoned that if I was a jiva, a servant of God, then acting on that premise should with practice result in less confusion and alienation, and more inner sense of knowing what God wants, and also of being what I am, of being "centered." It's like when you put the camera properly into focus, the image on the lens becomes sharp.
QUOTE
And what would do if one day all of a sudden God would speak to you and reciprocate with you exactly in the way you have imagined all those years you were calling His and Her name?
You mean, if something like this happened now? That's even harder to imagine... I do not think it is possible that I would find a theistic message convicing. My worldview right now has a structure to it and some sense of inner coherence, but its premise is that there is no God. So a divine voice right now would have to dismantle my entire belief system -- one that works for me, cognitively speaking -- and present the theistic hypothesis (the same one that I once tested and rejected), in a way that would be more convincing than whatever I presently believe to be true.
I cannot rule out that I could one day hear a voice so loving and attractive that I would be just swept away, and would find it convincing on grounds that have nothing to do with my thinking now. Falling in love madly. But I cannot imagine that.
I will paste in here below a passage from an essay I once started wrting but never finished, about leaving KC.
Coming closer to God?
A central devotional practice in the Hare Krishna movement is japa – the soft chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra on beads. The morning chanting purifies the mind; only a pure mind can perceive Krishna’s presence. When one chants, the ancient masters say, one meets God, for Krishna’s name is nondifferent from Krishna himself. So I chanted the obligatory sixteen rounds on my beads every day – with good concentration it took two hours – and nothing significant ever happened. As much as I enjoyed singing Hare Krishna, the japa chanting left me cold. How many times can one bring one’s mind to focus on calling out to Krishna without ever feeling one is being heard, or at least that one is coming closer?
Not that I disliked this daily meditation. It was calming, it helped me stay focused, and the emotional rewards for keeping my vow were not insignificant. Yet chanting remained an exercise, a chore, rather than an enlivening experience. Sometimes I would go to the forest to chant, and wished I could just listen to the silence instead. I felt out of tune. The devotees offered a standard explanation: my chanting was marred by the offenses I was committing against the devotees and the Holy Name. My mind required more purification: more chanting.
At major celebrations, like appearance days of Krishna’s incarnations, chanting is considered to be especially potent. At one such occasion I decided to chant four times the daily quota, hoping for a breakthrough. It took ten hours. It was close to midnight as I finished my last rounds, pacing up and down the temple corridor. Tired from fasting and from the effort to concentrate, my head spinning, I was hardly aware of my body and the surroundings. Could this be the beginning of coming in contact with Krishna? No, it felt too mechanical. I had to write it off as a hyperventilation effect.
At some harinams (singing and dancing processions through the town) where I used to sing on top of my lungs to purify the passersby by the spiritual sound, I permanently strained my vocal chords. I could speak normally after that, but the soft, fast chanting turned into a struggle. It took nearly double the usual time, and sometimes I could only whisper. I always had “rounds” left to chant throughout the day. Ten years down the road, I hated going to sleep knowing the new day would bring the rebirth of my eternal enemy: the rounds.
One day, I sat in my room chanting, and my attention was drawn again and again to a potted plant on the windowsill -- a young geranium I had bought on impulse. It was the first living plant I owned since childhood. Strictly speaking, buying it was a waste of Krishna’s money, but this plant, broken and sickly, cost next to nothing. I brought it home and soon it got better. I inspected it daily. I enjoyed touching and smelling the delicate baby leaves; one could almost see them unfold and grow. Meanwhile, the plant disturbed my chanting. “Why is it so easy to feel affection for an ordinary plant and so hard to stay focused on someone as great as God?” – I wondered in exasperation, and then I knew: Because the plant reciprocated! I visualized the all-knowing, all-loving God hearing me call on to Him for years and years, without responding in a way I could relate to. Granted my endeavors were imperfect; certainly I was a neophyte and an offender… but still, the heartlessness of this silence threw me back. No loving person would behave that way. I thought of Anthony de Mello’s words: “God loves you at least as much as the person in your life who loves you the most.” If this was God’s way of showing love, I could not relate to it. Maybe there was no one out there listening?
I liked singing the Hare Krishna mantra more than japa, the obligatory soft chanting on beads. Today, several years after leaving ISKCON, I almost never miss the japa, but often the singing. It was easy to put one’s emotions into the music, to be moved, captivated, catharctically purified. The most magic moment of the day in service of Krishna was the early morning, before the first temple service began. From the darkness outside we reverentially tiptoed into the darkened temple room, our minds still separate, at peace, uncluttered with the trivia of the day. A single voice would softly intone the first line of a traditional Sanskrit prayer and we would repeat in unison, gradually adding the instruments. The altar curtain would draw open, revealing the Deities in their simple night garments, bathed in soft, subdued light. Slowly, gently, we sang in the day, the light, the action.
Yet not even the singing brought about a breakthrough. I had assumed coming in contact with God would have a quality of experience that was new – something striking, irreducible to my mental processes. A genuine divine visitation should feel convincing! I did have feelings for God. I was occasionally struck by the beauty of his image or the wisdom of his words recorded in the scripture. I could engage in an inner dialog with him and “hear” him answer. I prayed for help and felt a renewed trust and hope. None of these experiences, however, were necessarily of a divine origin. It could just as well have been the mind.
Perhaps I would have met the unexpected, had I not been so full of expectation? The surest way of preventing oneself from falling in love is to believe we should love. Or perhaps I knew too well what sort of “responses from God” the human mind could produce?
One area where the issue assumed crucial importance was relating to the murti, the Deity. Krishnaite theology stresses the radical identity of God and his image. Deities on the altar are bowed down to, bathed, dressed, offered refreshments and a variety of other services. The deity does not merely represent God; it is God and must be treated accordingly. I accepted the idea intellectually, but the emotional part proved a challenge – apparently greater than for most people around me. It took me several years to come to the point where I could look at Deities without feeling they were ugly. It took eleven years before I dared to perform worship on Krishna’s altar. Close encounter threatened to shake the fragile balance. Reverence from a distance felt safe. But to go on the altar, touch the cold metal or marble of God’s body, look into his painted eyes, put the wig on his bald head, pin up the cleverly designed garments behind to make them look like real garments up front – and maintain the conviction that this, here, was God?
I don’t know why things that to most others seemed to come naturally caused such inner conflict to me. Was I too critical? Too self-doubting? I watched newcomers collecting Deity photos, choosing personal favorites, relating dreams they had about them, yearning for the day they would be allowed to go on the altar… and slightly older devotees, who already had that service, talking about their feelings for the Deities in a way that struck me as self-indulgent. They were in the midst of an exciting spiritual adventure, while I stood on the sidelines mentally reducing their experience to mere sentimentality, wishful thinking, self-deception, projected desire for a baby, and so forth. Until a thought occurred, eight years into my ISKCON career: maybe that’s all there is? Maybe there is no “real thing” that will come later, with advancement; maybe this is as real as it can get? If so, it dawned on me, then it was I who was the fool and the loser. It wasn’t greater discrimination or greater reverence that would do the trick; one needed simple-mindedness, even ignorance. Interacting with a Deity, like playing with a doll, opened doors to projection. From there to experiencing closeness to God and love of God, all it took was taking one’s emotions at face value -- the one thing I could not do.
I had been reading this topic pondering why some people seem to have a sense of their connection to God and of His communication with them and some people don't. I was wondering if we were interpreting the same feelings differently, or if some genetic predisposition to have these feelings were present or what the explanation was.
So your essay is fascinating to me because as I read it I try to examine why I responded to some of these same elements differently, why I had a different experience of them altogether.
But then I read this passage:
And I came to believe that you experienced at least some of what I experienced. And where you chose to focus on "it could just as well have been the mind" I chose to focus on "it might be the mind but I believe it really is God, or at least behaving as if it is has a positive impact on my life."
Any time I start to doubt my interpretation, a particularly apt Tarot card reading or sequence of events will once again reaffirm a Divine presence in my life.
So your essay is fascinating to me because as I read it I try to examine why I responded to some of these same elements differently, why I had a different experience of them altogether.
But then I read this passage:
QUOTE
I did have feelings for God. I was occasionally struck by the beauty of his image or the wisdom of his words recorded in the scripture. I could engage in an inner dialog with him and “hear” him answer. I prayed for help and felt a renewed trust and hope. None of these experiences, however, were necessarily of a divine origin. It could just as well have been the mind.
And I came to believe that you experienced at least some of what I experienced. And where you chose to focus on "it could just as well have been the mind" I chose to focus on "it might be the mind but I believe it really is God, or at least behaving as if it is has a positive impact on my life."
Any time I start to doubt my interpretation, a particularly apt Tarot card reading or sequence of events will once again reaffirm a Divine presence in my life.
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