I just been thinking about things consequent to reading zvs' talks with Ananda and others. This post won't be scholarly, these considerations of bhakti-yoga and rasas are beyond my ken. I mean you might as well just say 'what is real love'. Something Ananda said nicked me though: how hardly anyone sticks to the sadhana. Then I was reading about intimacy and privacy of exalted knowings, and about how kids off the street (regardless of their body age) are not encouraged to mess around trying to figure out their 'real' position with Krsna. And about how if you go off half-cocked without a teacher you could end up crazy, because the maha-mantra opens up portals in your little nervous system and you might get somewhere beyond what your frame is able to withstand, what with the demands put on it by constant contact with, well, whatever that is that you are contacting.

About the closest I've ever come to 'being insane', apart from a brief skirmish with mania which I brush off as a 'chemical imbalance', from which I no longer suffer, I say the closest I ever want to come to 'being insane' was when hovering on the decision to leave ISKCON. I see some others here have left, but not left the maha-mantra behind. I have said before that I seek succour of other mantras, possibly because of my penchant for repetitive thinkings and attraction to simple sound vibration. I know I get joked at about 'impersonalism' but, I find myself resistant, actively resistant to chanting Hare Krsna. If it pops in my head I don't try to make it go away, and sometimes on the edge of sleep it will come and I just go with it. I just really feel sundered. About this, after aaaaalllll these years, I still feel sundered. I doubt very much that I would get 'put back together again' by exploring texts or disciplic successions. The deep mystery, for me, is where is my will. What is one's will? Is it spiritual cojones? Is it backbone? Purity? Sincerity? In what does it inhere? I sure know one thing. I'm not good at promises. If that makes me a rascal wull I guess I am one. I'll just never be quite sure of anything again. You get used to feeling like that, it becomes a modus operandi. I admire those who practice, I admire those who are tasting some taste. The technicalities of that, well they're just words onna page, for now. I seem to live in more than one world at once, and I wonder if it is 'merely' an act of will (power) on my part that keeps me from living in just one.

This subject is obviously beyond me, cuz' there are at least 5 words above, that i have never seen before. So i don't have a clue.

But i do wonder, Apres, do you ever have to pray? And if you ever have/had to, who do you pray to, or what is that prayer. (praying meaning at this time, asking for help from a higher power)

.......

There is a place for scholarly in all things spiritual, for many need to have that intellectual basis and proof to continue the process of exploring and following traditional, sometimes ancient teachings that finds a lot of intellectual barriers in the modern age. Then many (me included) primarily go by instinct and that feeling deep down that speaks personal knowing that separates the bullshit and ornament from the essential wisdom needed to keep going down the road of life. Truth and Wisdom are something I'm always seeking, in everything I try to do, and though I know much lies in books and traditions, they also contain so much cultural baggage wrapped in customs, prejudice and mores of times gone by, that are just soo hard to handle when it runs up against that internal voice of today that screams "Bullshit!!"

I too see us human beingz as alive and changing, growing evolving with time. To think that we MUST stick with any one sadhana that came into our life at one certain moment of realization and need seems kind of stifling when indeed we, nature and the universe are things of constant change. I grew up a Catholic going to Catholic Grade School and High School. I have friends and family of that time period that have kept that sadhana. Once in College and after burning a few brain cells with various drugs of the time, I choose Yoga and Meditation as a way to change myself. Though I don't practice all that sadhana anymore, I know of many friends and family that still do. I then buried my heart into GV, ISKCON style, practicing the sadhana to the best of my ability for almost 20 years. Am I better or worse than those who stuck with those earlier sadhana's? From my observance, it's all relative, some do well staying, some do not, but who is to judge such personal matters outside true believers and fundamentalist? Now I am a hybrid practitioner of many things, still having a personal sadhana, though not attached to any school or tradition directly, though indirectly, I have ties to all that I once belonged to or was interested in. This place I am in holds no worth to any true believer in any tradition, especially GV ones, but that is OK with me, for what can I do but be true to myself. I cannot imagine having to live a life to please only others or some vow I made when I was a young man, for that seem much like a self made prison for the mind and heart indeed, or what I would call true madness.


To me, insanity was living with drug addicts and people who were willing to harm others for their own gain in my youth. Later in life, insanity was living in a spiritual community that was full of unhealthy relationships, it was having a devotee try to kill me because I was betrothed to someone whom he thought must be only his, only because she accidently brushed his elbow in the kitchen at one time. Insanity was male devotees wanting more than one wive based on shastra, it was the temple president/GBC member telling the temple devotees after Bhagavatam class, that it was best one pujari/cook cut his wrists on the road and not on temple grounds because we did not need the bad publicity, while never going to the hospital to see to the welfare of the devotee .... yes these were just a few and not the worst of my GV experience of insanity!

I think Apres, when you speak of your will, you have hit upon a very important aspect of life that we should all cherish, and that is choice. We have the power to choose the direction of our life, including whatever spiritual belief and practice that it may or may not include. It is only by choice that anything called spiritual has juice and relevancy. We can choose to stick with one thing that makes our heart and mind unify with happiness and knowledge, or we can look around and try many things, or none at all. Whenever one person or any tradition starts to discount personal choice and the free will to live ones live according to ones calling and inner voice, then that is a person or tradition worthy of being left behind ... without regret.

Well. Meta. I read your questions hours ago, and they stopped me. It also stopped me that you didn't know some of the words I use. That is because, I have taken words to be my stomping ground, where I feel comfortable. Also I like to play with them, roll them around in my mouth and my ears and my mind, like a kid who puts everything in her mouth, so to speak. But. They aren't the whole world, and something about the things I and others here been talking about, is reminding of this more and more.

So. I was thinkin' hard about what you asked, and when that didn't work so well I started feeling around in my memories. When I been pushed to the wall, recently, no, I do not pray. I pretty much consciously do not pray. Not for help or guidance. Because I get all wrapped around the axle, thinkin' 'who's there, what would it even mean or be like for the prayer to be answered. And then I get thinkin that I don't even know what a good prayer would be. So if I'm suffering or confused, no, I do not pray, because I am in stubborn mode. I just try to be.

But! If prayer is an affair of the heart, or underneath of or beyond words, I think I do. Like the other evening, when it was warm, I went outside, and everything was soft and gentle, pretty to see and smell. Everything was conspiring, and I was in it. So, I just had a shift, just a positive feeling, and I do think that a little prayer might have slipped out, but it was in my intention. It weren't in words, maybe sighing only. For that few little moments, everything was just being and I was, and it was alright. I felt full, filled up, included, continuous with everything.

Also, I wanted to tell you. When I am with people of faith, like you, something is communicated but you don't speech it. You just be that way, and I pick up on it. It is in your intention, just the way you are, and if someone would be with you for a while it is like the surplus beyond whatever we're talking about. I mean someone would have to follow someone who loves around and be with them for a while, and it would just come through. Ya know? (there's other people like that I know so don't go getting all weirded out. You're just a very good example. And you're quiet hahahaha)

So no, I don't pray anymore in just such and such a way. But I bet some prayers are getting out somehow. The rest is my blathering which you can SEE is words. They do not say what I want to say.

But!

Kaliiiiii!! Your sayings are welcome to me. What a comfort it is to think that because I am a changeful creature, does not mean that I have failed some existential test of staying power. I might botch it up by trying to explain it, but, somewhere, like at the end of an outbreath and right before the inbreath, in despite of all the drama and angsting, (pah!), I guess I think I want to be innocent. Just be real, no matter what costume or scene is going on. This is as you say, where the juice is. There's different ways of knowing. Maybe that's all there is to it, just accepting my way of knowing. And! though it take place in this little pixelated den, hanging out with people who are explorers, where I could just, learn what choosing is about.
So thanks. 'Unified heart' well yeah, that would be nice.

I chanted more japa in the last year than I did in the previous 21 combined. It all got started when I was looking for a way to supplement my nicotine gum to make sure that I actually quit smoking. So I haven't had one cig since I quit 13 months ago. But part of my reasoning for re-adopting this was that I could replace one nervous habit with another. That was mostly based on the International So-Called Japa that we all may know and have learned - restless, bouncing and out-loud agony.

I didn't mean to leave out ruci though. A higher taste certainly seemed to figure in and I really began to see hari-nama as a genuine way of approaching God. But what slowly filtered in and destroyed it was teachings - KC w/o sanga is a fire underwater, the 10 offenses I can't follow, etc., etc.. So why try? But just today it made me remember how ISKCON grew and exploded before the volumes of teachings took their toll.

The movement definitely peaked in the early 70's. Most of the books weren't out and many of them hadn't been read or absorbed. That would take time. The two biggest US ISKCON saints; Jayananda and Vishnujana, were mainly borne out of hari-nama, prasada, and Prabhupad's personal qualities. Of course there were some basic teachings too, which are essential to any religion.

About 6 months ago, I tried a form of mantra meditation taught by a guru whose other teachings I naturally consider super-ridiculous. Why she even says things like "you can do anything, you are Shiva himself" and even did a "Jimi Hendrix" where she has a poster of a Hindu goddess with her own head replacing the goddess's head.

And guess what? IT HELPS. Every time I see her face I crack up. But I will typically do this silent japa for about 20 or 30 minutes a day. I'm just looking for some basics - calmness, focus, mental health, etc., and so on. No more siddhanta thank you, so I guess I'm lucky for all the Prabhupada conditioning.

I tend to have a pragmatic; practial, approach to things. Theory is there, but it ultimately takes a back seat and in the front seat is what works, and where to go.

The ISKCON dogmatic version of religion has really bothered me. How can it be done? How to separate the practical workable part from all the dogma, all the do's and dont's, and the hell that awaits us if we do the slightest thing wrong?

Ultimately I detached the philosophy and practice from ISKCON. They appears to disappoint me any time I have anything with do with them, and have a very negative approach. Every contact ends with them more or less screaming at me, saying "you follow me, I know better, you are a nonsense". And that does not make sense in relation to the GV teachings, or even my own idea of what is spirituality. That is what you screamed to newcomers, and not to "devotees" since 30 years. I always thought there was discrimination, but I guess I was wrong. There is no discrimination at all.

And then all the other stuff I have sniffed on and learned. How about that? Should it all be rejected as inferior just because ISKCON guys say so, who anyway have proved themselves having very bad behaviour, to the degree of many being criminal?

So for me it becomes my own synthesis of all things spiritual I have learned in life. It is an inner thing, meaning that I don't have any ready book of teaching for it all. But I don't need it, I just can't express it to others.
I am not even sure it should be called "gaudiya vaisnavism" anymore, since even though GV is a big source of inspiration, it is different. So I just call it the general - bhakti yoga. Or bhakti with a twist, or anything that fits my mood at the moment.
If it just happens to have a similarity to what ISKCON's founder teaches, I just say - oh, such a nice coincidene. That since it means that my years in ISKCON was not wasted after all, if I just can destill those nice things out.

Many's ideas of a religion is to follow someone else's visions, or ideas. I take the opposite approach. What is wrong with my own inspiration and visions? There is no reason for "God" to not give me visions too, if I just accept them as true. After 30 years of bhakti yoga, I should really have such inspirations. They should be there. And if I get visions, I guess they are due to my bhakti yoga practises, and therefore are to be trusted, if they are somehow near to what others have gotten before. I mean 30 years of bhakti yoga should give trustable visions and inspiration, otherwise, what's the use?

Ras and Prisni;

you make so much sense. At some time, the 'via media' instead of being a connector become like they are 'running interference'. Like I just can't get through, unless I take the 'what it is' unto myself. Much of what you say here gives me shivers up my spine because I can recognize it as my own heart-felt experience. You just make sense.

Whoa.....

Well may you say 'whoa'. It's kind of like 'Dueling Banjos' only it's 'dueling mantras'. I look for a sign, but also am aware that I generate a fair amount of static. Are we receivers, or transmitters? Maybe we can't get irretrievably knocked off course, we can wander for a while though, with no chart.

Can't we be both receivers and transmitters?


"we can wander for a while though, with no chart"

I have been wandering around since 92 in the spritual Disneyland the world is turning into and I haven't found a chart yet. How do you know something is a chart? Or your chart? And isn't that the same question as who is my guru?

will answer later, I would like to talk about these things but I am at work now.

A question to myself: How did that Gita verse go, the one about the riven cloud? I don't feel like opening the book.

' O mighty-armed Krishna, does not such a man, who is bewildered from the path of transcendence, fall away from both spiritual and material success and perish like a riven cloud, with no position in any sphere? [6.38]

This is my doubt, O Krishna, and I ask You to dispel it completely. But for You, no one is to be found who can destroy this doubt. [6.39]

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said; Son of Pritha, a transcendentalist engaged in auspicious activities does not meet with destruction either in this world or in the spiritual world; one who does good, My friend, is never overcome by evil. [6.40]'

The image of one's endeavors 'perish (ing) like a riven cloud, with no position in any sphere...'has stuck with me all these years. As has Krsna's assurance. I always liked this part, way long before I ever had my own doubts. I also like the rhythm, the cadence of it, this conversation.

I don't know the answer to that Gerard. And more to the point, even if I knew something was a chart, I probably wouldn't be able to follow it. Are you actively looking for one? As for being receivers and transmitters, sure I think we are both. It is, to follow the crude analogy, a question of tuning and frequencies. Most probably I am sending mixed signals, jokes, half-prayers, weather reports from 'the spiritual Disneyland' which describes my interiority as well as the outer world. Hildegard of Bingen's on the radio, but could just as well be Jimi Hendrix.

Too bad you edited the entire list away of what you are attracted to. I scored only about 5 out of your 50! You seemed to be a very intensely living roman catholic (without the rules).

The question of the map or the guru always fascinates me. People choose a guru to lead them to the Truth (or something). How to choose, there are thousands of gurus around saying different things, preaching different paths, that would mean that you would have to know the truth before you can choose a guru; but then you don't need a guru.

You have people of course who say: all paths lead to the same. All are roads to the one mountain top, but that is advaitic dogma, that presupposes the existence of only one mountain top. Maybe there are three mountain tops, what do I know?

Or just because you have a "good feeling" or "intuition" about a guru or a map, where does that feeling come from? Metabolism or previous lives? If I was Joe Schmuck in a previous live why would I care about the "feeling" or "intuition" he is giving me in this live?

Gak, I was tossing and turning last night thinking to get up and edit that before anyone saw it. I also obviously love to talk about myself! Pah!

'An intensely living roman catholic without the rules'? Good heavens, what's the good of that, hahahaha. Sounds like a short life of trouble.

(demmitall, I wonder what the five were)

Anyway, the way I get taught now, is different from 'choosing a guru'. I don't think it is so much a situation of coming to someone and saying 'teach me'. I've learnt lessons from scurrilous knaves. I mean if you're in the way of wanting to understand something, I do believe that you will gravitate toward, and pull that, toward yourself. I mean sometimes it takes a 'bang on the ear', and other times, more rarely, I happen onto someone who is just like a walking Tarot card, it's that obvious, or a friend, someone who's recognizable from the get-go. Like you're just picking up from where you left off. Of course, even people with whom we have great difficulty can be lesson-givers. Then there's the garden variety, people I habitually ignore, or go away from, and one day I turn around and say 'hey, what're we both doing together in the same scene, for heaven's sake, I been blind and deaf.' I don't want a 'guru' per se. Just now, at this age, at this time in my life, that is too Kabuki theatre, I don't like the trappings.

I dare say there are people on this forum, from whom I am picking up, osmotically, both what I am looking for, and what I am not. Do you think that?

There is a minister in my town, with whom I've had scant dealings, but he is super-charged for me. Also, there are family members, that I may speak to only once every six months, but I get the distinct feeling that our dealings are significant, beyond the exact words that we say to each other. And I am aware that some people who I find extremely irritating to me, have something for me, something they're maybe not even directly trying to deliver. And I am aware, now more than ever, that my antennae are changing, very much so. I mean middle-age is just fraught with antennae rearrangements. Do you have that?

'Intensely living Roman Catholic without the rules'. Eh, that makes me chuckle. Really, that is rich. (this makes me think of zvs' query on another thread, about intimations of past lives. For myself I cannae even figure out the present one, and I don't feel to be muckin' about with past ones, although I can imagine that there are constant bleed-throughs, possible, back and forth, since I also think all times are contiguous and possibly exist at once.)

no map but what we draw

Yes, like Escher's hand drawing itself!

I actually came to ISKCON, because I wanted to learn about bhakti yoga.
And as far as becoming a member and disciple of a guru, I really wanted to believe.

What I learned is that most people like to cheat others and say one thing while they mean another.
Even, or maybe especially, those who say they are spiritual.
That was an eye opener.
A painful one.

It was when I read about many "spiritual seekers", like Alistair Crowley, Rudolf Steiner, and others, that they all have rejected some spiritual organisation, or beeing rejected by one, I figured out that it must be a rite of passage to go through that.
So maybe it is a good thing, after all.

So today, who is teaching bhakti yoga?
Who is teaching the yoga of sweet ecstatic love?

No one, it appears like.
They are all teaching something else. Mostly the "worship me" yoga.
That's quite a different thing from the yoga of loving Radha and Krishna.

You should switch to Noh theatre, that is so much better, stylized.


I wouldn't call it osmosis, but there are quiet a lot of synchronicities going on here (couldn't give you an example, I don't take notes).

One of the 5 out of your 50 was "an attraction for aloneness" so I don't pick up that much with my antennae, but my interests shift, GV is now in a grey and faraway past, but I know there is so much beauty in Hinduism that I am still trying to find ways of getting there. One of them is trying to apply anthroposophy to Hinduism. But I don't think I'll get to "the yoga of sweet ecstatic love" that way.


PS
There was a short-lived thread on chess here, started exactly two years ago today.

You may have heard of the famous Sri Padmanabha Gosvami of the Sri Radharamana temple in Vrindavan. Today on his facebook, his status is:

It is not true that everyone should follow one path. Listen to your own truth.

I quite agree.

Gerard, if you know that there is so much beauty in Hinduism, I imagine that whatever you apply will bear fruit for you. If you 'know there is beauty' then you will keep prowling around it, because it answers something within you. In answer to your question about Joe Schmuck, all I meant was that nothing is lost to us, irremediably, forever. I mean even in this life, we go over ground more than once, sometimes, and know it for the first time.

As for Noh, I will look into it. I like highly stylized forms of expression, I like strictnesses, and forms, for their own sake. I just always want to be free to burst away from them. As if I were young and coltish, which I am not.
post script; I think also that there are at least three mountain tops, the ascent of which and the reaching of which, would take our breath away.

Some warnings about Yoga and how things can go very wrong, pranayama without proper supervision leading to ashtma or worse, etc.


YOGA: THE OCCULT

By Dr. John Ankerberg and Dr. John Weldon


The previous article revealed that the physical practice of yoga is designed to alter one’s
consciousness and bring occult transformation. Thus, authoritative texts on both yoga and
the occult reveal that yoga is a potentially profound occult practice. 1 Yoga is designed to
awaken occult energies in the body, to lead to occult transformation, and to secure specific
occult goals. Certain experiences under yoga (especially kundalini yoga) are similar to
those found in shaman initiation and ritualistic magic, including experiences of spirit possession
and insanity. Virtually all standard yoga texts acknowledge that yoga practice
develops psychic powers and other occult abilities.
All this is why the yoga scholar and Sanskrit authority Rammurti Mishra can interpret
yoga theory as laying the foundation for occultism. “In conclusion, it may be said that behind
every psychic investigation, behind mysticism, occultism, etc., knowingly or unknowingly,
the Yoga system is present.” 2 In his article “Kundalini and the Occult,” occult authority
John White observes that the essence of occultism is the attempt to gain “higher” knowledge
and power or control of the forces of nature, especially the “life energy” (prana) which
underlies the basis of true magic and psychic phenomena. “In its highest form, occult
science merges indistinguishably with true mysticism.... [M]ysticism and genuine occultism
are closely allied.... [T]he heart of genuine occult practices appear to be synonymous with
aspects of the [yogic] kundalini concept….” 3 Yoga authority Sir John Woodroffe (Arthur
Avalon), author of a standard text on kundalini yoga, The Serpent Power, agrees, and he
supplies many additional reasons why yoga and occult magic go hand in hand. 4 Until his
death, perhaps the leading authority on shamanism and comparative religion was Mircea
Eliade. Note his observations of the similarities between yoga and witchcraft: “All features
associated with European witches are claimed also by Indo-Tibetan yogis and magicians.”
Along with a range of occult powers common to both, some yogis:
... boast that they break all the religious taboos and social rules: that they practice
human sacrifice, cannibalism, and all manner of orgies, including incestuous
intercourse, and that they eat excrement, nauseating animals, and devour human
corpses. In other words, they proudly claim all the crimes and horrible ceremonies
cited ad nauseam in the Western European witch trials. 5
Because yoga is an occult system, the physical, mental, and spiritual dangers that
accompany occult practices are also found in yoga. 6 Thus, even standard yoga books
warn of the serious dangers arising from supposedly “wrong” yoga practice. But we think
such hazards are conceded because yoga is an occult practice, not because its techniques
are allegedly done incorrectly.


RISKS AND HAZARDS

The following citations taken from authoritative texts show many risk and hazards of
yoga practice (including death).
Shree Purohit Swami’s commentary on Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras warns, “People forget
that Yama and Niyama [limbs one and two] form the foundation [of yoga practice], and
unless it is firmly laid, they should not practice postures and breathing exercises. In India
and Europe, I came across some three hundred people who suffered permanently from
wrong practices, the doctors on examination found there was nothing organically wrong
and consequently could not prescribe.” 7 Because most people (including most medical
doctors) wrongly assume that yoga is harmless, they rarely consider its possible relevance
to any illnesses of their patients who practice yoga. But we are convinced that many perplexing
diseases, including some deaths, are related to yoga. Richard Kieninger, a New
Age educator, recalls, “A woman of my acquaintance upset her hormonal balance doing
this yoga exercise, and it produced a malfunction in her adrenal glands. Doctors didn’t
know how to reverse the effects... and she soon died.... Swami Rama warns that advanced
forms of patterned breathing, which is a common yoga exercise, can cause a person to
harm himself irreparably.” 8 United Nations spiritual adviser and spiritist Sri Chinmoy, 9
author of Yoga and the Spiritual Life, 10 admits, “To practice pranayama [breath control]
without real guidance is very dangerous. I know of three persons who have died from it…”
11 In Yoga and Mysticism, Swami Prabhavananda warns about the dangers of the yoga
breathing exercises, which so many today think are harmless, when he writes:
Now we come to breathing exercises. Let me caution you: they can be very
dangerous. Unless properly done, there is a good chance of injuring the brain. And
those who practice such breathing without proper supervision can suffer a disease
which no known science or doctor can cure. It is impossible, even for a medical
person, to diagnose such an illness.... [For example,] I had known a young boy of
perhaps 16 or 17 years of age who had begun to practice hatha yoga.... He was acting
very strangely. He would prostrate fully on the ground, rise to full height, then repeat
the performance—over and over again. The Swami said that he had lost his mind. ...
Finally, however he became so unmanageable that he had to be confined.... As
regards breathing exercises, I know that Sri Ramakrishna, Holy Mother, and all the
disciples of Ramakrishna have warned us again not to practice them 12 (yet
Vivekenanda, Ramakrishna’s disciple, encouraged them! 13)
Yoga authority Hans Ulrich Rieker admonishes in The Yoga of Light, “Yoga is not a
trifling jest if we consider that any misunderstanding in the practice of yoga can mean death
and insanity,” and of kundalini yoga, he says that if the breath is “prematurely exhausted
[withdrawn] there is immediate danger of death for the yogi.” 14
The practice of hatha yoga is often conceded to be dangerous. Gopi Krishna warns of
the possible dangers of such practice, including “drastic effects” on the central nervous
system and the possibility of death:
In Hatha yoga the breathing exercises are more strenuous, attended by some
abnormal positions of the chin, the diaphragm, the tongue, and other parts of the
body to prevent expulsion or inhalation of air into the lungs in order to induce a state
of suspended breathing. This can have drastic effects on the nervous system and the
brain, and it is obvious that such a discipline can be very dangerous. Even in India,
only those prepared to face death dare to undergo the extreme discipline of Hatha
yoga. 15
A standard authority on hatha yoga, The Hatha Yoga Pradipika (chapter 2, verse 15),
warns, “Just as lions, elephants, and tigers are tamed, so the prana, should be kept under
control. Otherwise it can kill the practitioner.” 16
As was mentioned earlier, so-called hatha yoga is not easily distinguished from other
forms of yoga. And the same problems encountered in hatha yoga are encountered in
almost all forms of yoga. Yoga authority Ernest Wood emphasizes, “I hold that all Hatha
Yogas are extremely dangerous,” and he therefore urges use of a “different” form of yoga,
Raja Yoga. 17 But another authority on yoga, Hans Ulrich Rieker, claims, “Mastery of hatha
yoga is only a preliminary to the mastery of raja yoga.” 18 Furthermore, a standard work, the
Shiva Samhita, argues, “There is no Hatha Yoga without Raja Yoga and no Raja Yoga
without Hatha; therefore, the Yogi should start with Hatha Yoga, guided by a competent
teacher.” 19 What this implies is that yoga is yoga; its various forms do not fundamentally
alter its basic nature. For example, the Hindu holy book, the Bhagavad Gita, promotes at
least five different systems of yoga, and yet all are acknowledged as potentially dangerous.
Thus, Hindu master Sri Krishna Prem cautions in The Yoga of the Bhagavat Gita, “As
stated before nothing but dangerous, mediumistic psychisms or neurotic dissociations of
personality can result from the practice of [yoga] meditation without the qualifications mentioned
at the end of the last chapter.” 20 He warns, “To practice it, as many do, out of
curiosity...is a mistake which is punished with futility, neurosis, or worse [‘even insanity
itself’].” 21 The specific physical and mental consequences arising from yoga practice are
also listed in other authoritative yoga texts. Sir John Woodroffe (Arthur Avalon) refers to
“considerable pain, physical disorder, and even disease….” 22 Rieker lists cancer of the
throat, all sorts of ailments, blackouts, strange trance states, or insanity from even “the
slightest mistake….” 23 In The Seven Schools of Yoga, Ernest Wood warns of “the imminent
risk of most serious bodily disorder, disease, and even madness.” 24 He observes that
many people have brought upon themselves incurable illnesses or insanity by neglecting
Hatha Yoga prerequisites, and “by any mistake there arises cough, asthma, head, eye, and
ear pains, and many other diseases.” 25
From the above, we conclude that innumerable yoga teachers in the West are being
irresponsible in promoting yoga as a safe physical regimen.


Notes:

1. Rammurti S. Mishra, Yoga Sutras: The Textbook of Yoga Psychology, Garden City, NY:
Anchor Books, 1973, pp. 132-37,295-399; Ernest Wood, Seven Schools of Yoga: An
Introduction, Wheaton, IL: Theosophical Publishing House, 1973, pp. 112-13; R. S.
Mishra, Fundamentals of Yoga, Garden City, NY: Anchor, 1974, pp. 2-3, chs. 17-19,26-
27; J. H. Brennan, Astral Doorways, New York: Samuel Weiser, 1972, pp. 29,98; Haridas
Chaudhuri, Philosophy of Meditation, New York: Philosophical Library, 1974, pp. 50-51.
2. Mishra, Yoga Sutras, p. 138.
3. John White, “Kundalini and the Occult,” in Kundalini Evolution and Enlightenment,
Garden City, NY: Anchor, 1979, pp. 363-64.
4. See Arthur Avalon [Sir John Woodroffe], The Serpent Power: The Secrets of Tantric and
Shaktic Yoga, New York: Dover, 1974, pp. 186-204.
5. Editorial, Yoga Journal, May/June 1984, p. 71.
6. See John Ankerberg, John Weldon, The Coming Darkness: Confronting Occult Deception,
Eugene, OR: Hrvest House Publishers, 1993.
7. Bhagwan Shree Patanjali, Aphorisms of Yoga, trans. Shree Purohit Swami, London:
Faber and Faber, 1972, pp. 56-57.
8. Richard Kieninger, The Spiritual Seekers’ Guidebook, Quinlan, TX: The Stelle Group,
1986, p. 71.
9. Sri Chinmoy, Astrology, the Supernatural and the Beyond, Jamaica, NY: Agni Press,
1973, pp. 53-68,87-89; Sri Chinmoy, Conversations with the Master, Jamaica, NY: Agni
4
Press, 1977, pp. 9-20,26-33),
10. Sri Chinmoy, Yoga and the Spiritual Life; The Journey of India’s Soul, Jamaica, NY:
Agni Press, 1974.
11. Sri Chinmoy, Great Masters and the Cosmic Gods, Jamaica, NY: Agni Press, 1977, p. 8.
12. Swami Prabhavananda, Yoga and Mysticism, Hollywood, CA: Vedanta Press, 1972,
pp. 18-19.
13. Swami Nikhilananda, Vivekananda, the Yogas and Other Works, New York:
Ramakrishna and Vivekananda Center, 1953, pp. 592-99.
14. Hans Ulrich Rieker, The Yoga of Light: Hatha Yoga Pradipika, New York: Seabury
Press, 1971, pp. 9,134.
15. Gopi Krishna, “The True Aim of Yoga,” Psychic, January-February, 1973, p. 13.
16. Rieker, Yoga of Light, p. 79.
17. Ernest Wood, Seven Schools of Yoga: An Introduction, Wheaton IL: Theosophical
Publishing House, 1973, p. 79.
18. Rieker, Yoga of Light, p. 128, emphasis added.
19. Wood, Seven Schools, p. 77.
20. D. R. Butler, “Instant Cosmic Consciousness,” in John White, ed., Kundalini Evolution
and Enlightenment, Garden City, NY: Anchor, 1979, p. 47.
21. Sri Krishna Prem, The Yoga of the Bhagavat [sic] Gita, Baltimore, MD: Penguin, 1973,
pp. XV, 46.
22. Avalon, Serpent Power, p. 12.
23. Rieker, Yoga of Light, pp. 30, 79, 96, 111-12.
24. Wood, Seven Schools, p. 14.
25. Ibid., p. 78.

Bhakti yoga is also dangerous in such a way. Note that many of the techniques are similar to in Raja yoga (yama, niyama etc.), and to shamanism (chanting, monotonous drumming etc.)
Maybe there is not the same danger to the physical body, but instead more to the subtle programming of the mind (the brain). To practice bhakti yoga without competent teacher (and here I don't consider ISKCON teachers to be competent), is like to invite insanity. Note the ecstatic symptoms, as described to be seen in Caitanya, laughing, crying, wailing. Also like in SB:

Here it is also hinted that ecstatic love of godhead outwardly appears like madness, and that it comes by chanting.

We have also seen that quite some in ISKCON end up in clinical madness, even before having even come near to such a state of bhakti yoga practices. We can also see how even those looking very serious, suddenly start to do mad things, and then "fall down". ISKCON also have produced a few madmen from their most "advanced" in their leadership.

Bhakti yoga is not a walk in the park, and I think it should be placed right beside the other yoga systems, in terms of danger and what effects it can cause. One might believe that only hatha yoga, pranayama, with its bodily transformations, can be dangerous. But bhakti yoga deals with the "programming" of the brain, and can thus be as dangerous.
And as far as "the occult", somehow I find that bhakti yoga has very many connections and similarities, and belongs straight there. Only that the "teaching" we got in ISKCON somehow never tells us that. We kind of got the kindergarten version, and nothing more. (maybe that is as well)

Maybe fortunately, the "chanting" we were told were kind of mindless mumbling something, while we can think about anything we like, or do anything we like, at the same time. People have been seen doing almost anything at the same time as they "chant". The dangers more come when we get "serious", and start to try to dive into the mantra, and focus on it. When we start to do the things as they are supposed to be done. That is when we start to reprogram the brain in a more serious way, and there is also when the dangers come, if we don't know what we are doing or have a teacher who knows it.

So, as I see it, the sane persons stopped in time, while the less sane continue to do things wrong, and go more and more insane.

Yes, I agree. We need teachers, in every other field there are teachers. But I could never find an answer to that question: who is the proper teacher (you also wrote that a few posts ago in this thread) and how I do know when I run into the right one? I don't trust intuition as that could just be a hang-over from a past live. And this is something I have mentioned before, so we are going a bit in circles. I wanted to post this article because I was surprised to see that even some very simple yoga exercises like pranayama can be dangerous.