The Vaishnava Topics category is located within the private, members-only area of Gaudiya Repercussions, and there is not really another equally suitable public category in which to post this conversation between Prabhupada and his disciples Kanupriya and Jamadagni.

But since this landmark conversation is such a truly pivotal moment in our ISKCON history (as Tapati said when she first posted it nearly four years ago), I feel it should also be posted in a public area of GR so that any guest who has not previously seen it may have the opportunity to do so.

Therefore I am posting it here, since the concepts articulated by Prabhupada in this conversation have clearly been a part of our collective spiritual practices and experiences within ISKCON.

Devotee 1 is Kanupriya.
Devotee 2 is Jamadagni.




Los Angeles, June 26, 1975


Prabhupada: So you have given up the Vaisnava-sadacara for business selling. So you can be dangerous for that.
Devotee (1): But we have also maintained the Vaisnava-sadacara. They didn't tell us...
Prabhupada: That's all right. You do that. But they do not see whether you are maintaining.
Devotee (1): But at the same time, when we were maintaining that, we had the same problems, is that, when we presented sociological applications of the philosophy, for instance, to arrange marriages in a reasonable way, that the women not be sent out on sankirtana to prostitute themselves to sell books, but be trained up to be wives, or that the brahmacaris in the temple, someone would sit and talk with them and see how many of them want to be married and try and arrange some type of training for them, knowing that most of them are going to become married, rather than just have no training and one day find oneself married, out on the street with no occupation or training.


Prabhupada: First of all, you are not trained up. You are sometimes becoming astrologer, sometimes this, sometimes that.
Devotee (1): It's true, because of my birth in this...
Prabhupada: So how they can follow you?
Devotee (2): We're not asking them to follow us. We're asking you Prabhupada, that these are some problems.
Prabhupada: My request is that first of all you adopt yourself the Vaisnava acara. Then you try to teach others. Otherwise you have no right.
Devotee (2): But we have done that for five years, and no one here listened to us at all.
Prabhupada: So why you are anxious to listen... You... Let them not listen. You do your own duty.
Devotee (2): We had no duty. They gave us nothing to do. They would not recognize our qualities, as we understand, even of, say Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: So what can I do?
Devotee (2): Well, you can make statements on certain of these things so that when they hear them, their ignorance will be dispelled.
Prabhupada: Then we have to hear both of you. We have to hear both you... There will be regular court, and we shall see.
Devotee (1): Not court, simply...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Devotee (2): That would be fine.
Devotee (1): Okay.
Prabhupada: Before me. You are saying something. They may say something else. So brothers together, we sit down together, and bring this...

Devotee (2): All right. But we have some, also, questions that don't require that. These are philosophical questions. For instance, in Krsna Book there is a statement that King Ugrasena had four billion personal servants. Now you have asked that we go and spread Krsna consciousness to the scientific community.
Prabhupada: So everyone is servant. What is the question of four billion? Krsna's servant...
Devotee (2): No, Ugrasena, King Ugrasena, that when he was on the planet, he had four billion personal servants.
Prabhupada: That's all right. He is always the master. He... The Krsna is the only master.
Devotee (2): Not Krsna. No. King Ugrasena, Prabhupada. Not Krsna. King Ugrasena. The statement is that King Ugrasena had four billion personal servants. Now, we have gone and tried to spread to the scientific community. And if we say to them, "There was a king whose name was Ugrasena. He had four billion personal servants," they laugh and say, "What did they do for toilets? What did they do for food? Where did they live?"
Prabhupada: So you want to preach this particular portion and no other portion?
Devotee (1): No. We want to... We want to know if the story has an allegorical meaning rather than a literal translation, or that King Ugrasena who was a man who lived five thousand years ago and had four billion bodyguards, or whether the stories within the Bhagavatam, apart from some of them being actual, are allegorical stories. Such as the story of Krsna and Balarama chopping off the the eighty-eight...
Prabhupada: All right. You can give up that portion. You can take other portion.
Devotee (2): We don't mean to give it up.
Devotee (1): We don't mean to give it up.
Devotee (2): We're saying how can we say to them...
Prabhupada: Anyone, anyone... Why you are going to preach that portion to a professor?
Devotee (1): No. When they read your books, they pose that question to us.
Devotee (2): They read it. They say to us.
Devotee (1): And unless we can answer that question...
Prabhupada: They ask to only you, but they never ask to us.
Revatinandana: They have. Sometimes they ask me.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Let them ask. But you can tell away that(?) but you don't repeat this thing. You can give up that portion. You read other portion.
Devotee (1): But then because so many things they have to accept on faith without knowing, it then weakens their faith as to what they should accept and why should they accept Krsna, who they can't see any more than King Ugrasena's four billion bodyguards.
Prabhupada: Don't accept. Don't accept.
Devotee (2): But we want them to accept. The point is, if we say to a scientific man, "There was four billion," and if our statement is wrong...
/Prabhupada: But our position is that if some portion we cannot understand, it is our incapability.
Devotee (2): That is all right. But since we are...
Prabhupada: That's all. Unless we have got this faith we cannot use these Puranas. In the Puranas there are many such statements.
Devotee (2): Yes, but we just want to understand.
Prabhupada: Therefore many people, they do not accept Puranas. So what can be done?
Devotee (2): We're just trying to understand it because we've never dealt with Puranas before. We have been your disciples. But when we present this to the scientific community, because you have said that if one word is wrong, the whole philosophy is wrong, so they will say to us...
Prabhupada: So let them take it and throw out, don't read it. That's all.
Devotee (2): But then they discredit the Bhagavad-gita. We don't like that when they discredit the Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Why? They don't believe. What is the use?
Devotee (2): Well, because we also want to know how did they have four billion personal servants just so that we'll be able to convince them and also...
Prabhupada: If a king has four billion servants, so it is not very astonishing. Why do you think that a king shall have only four servants?
Devotee (2): Well, there's only two billion people on the planet right now.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Devotee (2): So where did they all go?
Prabhupada: I say you don't believe, you don't take it. Why you are insisting on that point? If you don't believe, you don't take it. If you don't believe the whole book or the whole society, then who forbids you?
Devotee (2): We were hoping that there are some things which can be improved, because they have not been set up by you.
Prabhupada: No. You cannot improve. Whatever we are, we are.
Devotee (2): Why can we not improve it?
Prabhupada: No. There is no possibility.
Devotee (2): Then what is the use of action?
Prabhupada: Action, whatever action we can do by chanting Hare Krsna, that's all.
Devotee (2): But we also have to make varnasrama society or farms or businesses.
Prabhupada: That, when we shall do, we shall see to it.
Devotee (2): But we are doing it. We are.
Devotee (1): We are doing it now, and that's the question...
Prabhupada: So do it in your own way.
Devotee (2): We don't want to. We want to do everything Krsna's way.
Prabhupada: Stop it. Stop it. I say stop it. You have come to me for my advice. I say you stop it.
Devotee (2): Then, we say, what should we do?
Prabhupada: You should do your business. That's all. Earn money and enjoy.
Devotee (2): No, I mean what should we do Krsna consciously?
Prabhupada: You give up Krsna consciousness, I say. That is my advice.
Devotee (2): Why should we do that?
Prabhupada: Then that I cannot say.
Devotee (1): Isn't there a middle of the road?
Prabhupada: If you are finding so many faults, you give it up.
Devotee (1): No. We're not finding fault.
Prabhupada: Then there is no other advance, alternative. No alternative. Either you accept or reject it.
Devotee (1): We accept, but we would like some instruction on...
Prabhupada: No. I have no such knowledge to convince you.
Devotee (1): No, we accept Krsna consciousness philosophy...
Prabhupada: That's all right. Accept, or if you reject, reject.
Devotee (1): We accept.
Devotee (2): We want to apply it.
Devotee (1): We want to apply it to the world as it is now.
Prabhupada: No no. You cannot. You are not authorized.
Devotee (1): Well, who is authorized?
Prabhupada: The authorized... You are not authorized. Who is authorized, that is not your business.
Devotee (2): Then what does it mean to become disciple?
Prabhupada: Disciple, if you don't like, give it up.
Devotee (2): We do like it.
Prabhupada: You have already given up.
Devotee (2): If we didn't like it, we would not come here.
Prabhupada: No, no. You have already given up. My disciples do not keep so many hair.
Devotee (2): Many of your disciples do.
Prabhupada: No. I don't accept that. You just this one circle, little. But those who are keeping big hairs, they are rejected from my disciples.
Devotee (2): All right. That is clearing some things up.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (2): This is what we want to know.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (2): Because then that is an unequivocal statement.
Prabhupada: No. This is, that you can, that anyone who is keeping hairs and not following the rules and regulations, they are rejected from second initiation.
Devotee (2): What if they are keeping hair but they are following the rules and regulations.
Prabhupada: Then let them follow. That's a good life. But from external features he must be a Vaisnava.
Devotee (2): To get second initiation.
Devotee (1): Does that mean shaved head?
Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu, when His students used to come without tilaka, so He refused to see his face. He refused to see his face. He said it is a crematory ground.
Devotee (2): Why is that?
Prabhupada: There is no "why." If you accept it, accept. If you don't accept, leave us, leave us. There is no "why."
Devotee (2): Then that is...
Prabhupada: You are not following strictly. You cannot ask why.
Devotee (2): We could not ask why when we were following strictly either, Prabhupada. So I'm sorry that it has to be this way.
Prabhupada: No, our thing is that we have got some principles. If anyone cannot follow, then we don't accept him.

Devotee (1): Then what do you do with the rest of the world, except for the few people who...
rabhupada: So what I can do I am doing. Therefore you have no right to ask me. What is possible by me I am doing. And those who are able to follow, they are following. That's all.
Devotee (2): But they cannot engage anyone else. How can you reach the intelligent class?
Prabhupada: So that is their business. That is not your business.
Devotee (2): We are trying to be disciples, so we considered it our business because we are sincerely trying.
Prabhupada: So why you are bothering me? You do your business.
Devotee (2): Because from you only...
Prabhupada: I do not accept you because you are keeping hairs.
Devotee (2): I did not know that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (2): You never told me that in Hawaii.
Prabhupada: Now I say, I'll repeat that anyone who is keeping long hairs, he is no more my disciple.
Devotee (2): All right.
Prabhupada: This is the first condition.
Devotee (1): Does that apply also for householder dharma, or is that simply for brahmacari dharma? Even you... I have pictures of you on the Bhagavatam when you did not have shaved head, with a mustache when you were doing your business as a householder. So does that apply to householders, or only to brahmacaris, that a householder must also keep a shaved head or is that...?
Prabhupada: At that time I was not initiated. You were seeing my picture, mustaches, at that time I was not initiated. Since I became initiated, I have shaven.
Devotee (1): Well, in India where one can do business...
Prabhupada: I can... Why you are bringing this question? You ask, "Why you had mustaches?" I say when I had mustaches, at that time, I was not initiated. That answer is given. That's all.
Devotee (2): Can I ask one more question, Prabhupada? What I would like to understand is why it is wrong to ask why? If I can just understand this, why it is wrong for us to ask you in a submissive way. We were humbly asking you these "whys," not because we are trying to be intimidating or we were trying to rebel, but because we have sincerely tried to understand as your disciples.
Prabhupada: So you better ask my so many other disciples?
Devotee (1): They don't have any answers.
Prabhupada: Then there is no answer. I cannot attend so many things.
Devotee (2): We are not so many.
Devotee (1): But these are the same questions which we have talked over with Revatinandana Swami and Jayatirtha. A great many...
Prabhupada: If my disciples, advanced students, cannot answer, then I am sorry. I cannot answer. I cannot answer.
Devotee (2): That we did not know. That we did not know.
Prabhupada: Yes. Now you know it. I have appointed so many GBCs because to help me. It is not possible to see everyone, individual. This is not...
Devotee (1): But these are the same questions which they themselves are posing to you.
Revatinandana: I have never met any other people who asked questions on the level that they are asking questions. I cannot answer many of their questions. I have studied all your books.
Prabhupada: I cannot. If you cannot, I cannot also. Because you have been taught by me, if you cannot, then it is...
Devotee (2): We have also been taught.
Revatinandana: I have read your books, and I have heard you lecture. And so many things they are asking, I am, have no capacity to answer them. But you must have the capacity because you know Krsna. Therefore they want to ask you personally.

Devotee (1): So that is the...
Prabhupada: So far I am not so able to answer. I admit my fault.
Devotee (1): Oh, so then that is...
Prabhupada: I cannot answer.
Devotee (1): I understand. Okay? But they are saying, the general conception of you is that because you know Krsna...
Prabhupada: You can... You...
Devotee (1): (interrupting) Excuse me. Because you know Krsna, therefore you know everything about the material world and can answer all questions.
Prabhupada: So whatever I know I have explained in my books. Beyond that I have no knowledge.
Devotee (2): If that is the case, Srila Prabhupada, that does not diminish our respect for you in the least because we have always held...
Prabhupada: So what can I do? I say that whatever I have got experience, I am explaining in my books. I have explained. So it is not possible for me to answer every individual person. It is not possible.
Devotee (2): We respect that. We understand. It is just that because they are saying these things...
Prabhupada: I have got my advanced students. They can answer. If they are unable, answer, if you do not find answer from my books, then it is hopeless.
Devotee (1): Ah! But your advanced students are saying if they give an answer that because they have been appointed by you, therefore their answer is perfectly correct, because, absolutely correct on all things in the relative world because, they have been appointed by you, and because you know...
Prabhupada: You may... That's all right. If you don't believe them, you can finish business.
Devotee (2): But are they correct? That's what we want to know.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are correct.
Devotee (2): That everything they say is the absolute truth?
Prabhupada: So what can I say? But I have no time to meet everyone.
Devotee (2): Is that correct, Srila Prabhupada? I want to know very clearly that every word that anyone whom you have appointed says is completely correct on all things?
Prabhupada: Yes. If they are authorized, it is correct.
Devotee (2): If they are authorized by you to be temple president...
Prabhupada: There is no reply.
Devotee (2): Then when (name witheld) said to me that he wanted to have homosexual affair with me, I should have said, "Okay. Whatever you say." Is that correct?
Prabhupada: So how to answer these questions?
Devotee (2): That is what he said to me. And he was a sannyasa. He is sannyasa and he said to me, "I want to have sex with you." Does that mean that Krsna was saying I should have sex with him?
Jayatirtha: So you have to see whether it is according to our principles.
Devotee (2): I'm asking you on a very practical... No. That is not what he said. He didn't say that. He said absolutely, and this is...
Upendra: Then you should listen to everything he said.
Devotee (2): I am. Because if I can judge then, if I can say, "Oh, at this point he is wrong," then that is what we are talking about, Srila Prabhupada. That is the issue. If they are absolutely right all the time and they can make no error, they wield absolute power over our lives.
Prabhupada: Where is (name witheld)? Where is (he)?
Satsvarupa: He is across the street.
Prabhupada: Has he said like that?
Devotee (2): Yes. I have witnesses.
Upendra: But he's admitted his error.
Devotee (2): That's beside the point.
Revatinandana: That's all right. But that's not the point here.
Upendra: The point is that Prabhupada, that if you come before Prabhupada for your own spiritual advancement, then it doesn't matter what other people are thinking...
Devotee (2): That's not the...
Devotee (1): That's not the crux of the matter at all.
Revatinandana: The point here is not to criticize (him).
Devotee (1): No. We did not come for that at all.
Revatinandana: That wasn't the reason. The point is that anyone, (name witheld) or anybody else, he may be a sannyasi, but if he's doing all kinds of nonsense, how can we say that he has absolute authority? Because he was in charge of the place, etc., and he is also in an authoritative position, yet he breaks the principles.
Devotee (2): His personal servant, when he came... His name is (name witheld). (He) instigated a homosexual affair with him. This boy came to surrender to Krsna and surrendered to (him). But (he) told him to do that.
Upendra: But Prabhupada...
Devotee (2): Wait. I am not speaking with you. He said he did that and he did it in the name of his authority as a sannyasa. So if you say, Prabhupada, that everything that they say is absolutely true, then they will have absolute power and can do anything that they want, and anything that they say and any opinion they express is taken to be the same as yours, then it becomes implied that you agree with and condone such things, because they do them with absolute license. And we don't believe that to be true. So we think it is some kind of mistake.
Prabhupada: They say like that?
Devotee (1): Everyone says like that.
Devotee (2): They do, Prabhupada.
Satsvarupa: No, they don't. Srila Prabhupada has said these things don't apply to you. Don't worry about them because you are not following the principles.
Devotee (1): But they do say, and we are following and you don't know what we're doing, Satsvarupa, because you haven't known me for two years. So you really don't know what I'm doing. You're not around.
Satsvarupa: But our society is going nicely. It's not...
Devotee (2): In some respects it's going fine. But these are problems which can be dealt with amongst us, and they are affecting all of us. And for some people these are problems though they may not be for you. I think, as far as I know, your conduct has always been very honorable. But for some people who it's not and where these misconceptions apply, it's a real problem and we're trying to deal with it because it affects our lives.
Upendra: The strength to deal with those problems comes from following sadhanacara.
Devotee (2): We are also attempting to follow sadhanacara. And if we are imperfect...
Prabhupada: Anyway, if he has said so, that is wrong.
Devotee (1): But is that then applying to everyone. Does someone who is in the adminis... (end)

Good choice of forum, Seeking Truth. Thanks for reposting this!

this goes to show the great austerities and sacrifices sp was going through to spread krishna consciousness in the world. it was so painful for him to be with people who had long hairs (outside of a fashion statement of god) and yet he daily inter-reacted with so many long hippies and george harison and such.

According to this statement by Prabhupada, the disciple, who is initiated by the spiritual master and who accepts the philosophy of Krishna consciousness, is not authorized to apply that philosophy to the world. Nor is the disciple allowed to know who is authorized to apply the philosophy because that is not the disciple's business.

those who speak are not authorized and
those who are authorized do not speak

Regardless of whatever love may have been in someone's heart, Prabhupada says here, not once but twice, that he "rejects" them as his disciple simply because of the length of their hair.

And conversely, we certainly saw the application of "but from external features he must be a Vaisnava" in ISKCON in the form of some of Prabhupada's closest followers whom he did not "reject": externally shaven-headed, saffron-robed "sannyasis" who internally were actually black-hearted pedophiles who were molesting children.

Are these two devotees still in the movement?

Prabhupada set up this organization for failure. For years I believe it was those who came after Prabhupada that did all the damage but here he is authorizing the damage. At times he was very spiritually abusive. He set the precedent for spiritual abuse and it is still going on today.

I do think that perhaps Prabhupada had changed over the years. As the movement got bigger I think his way of dealing with disciples deteriorated. They were expendable because there numbers were so many. He was not encouraging at all in this conversation. He didn't offer any insight or help...just an air of "Go away, you are no longer my disciples, and stop asking questions."

long hairs, if they cover the eyes, will prevent you from seeing god

Yeah, i hope to get to cutting my hair this weekend. It is getting too long, it is touching my ears for Krishna's sake! hahahahahhaha

Prabhupad admits here (and at some other places in this revealing discussion) that he had absolutely no way of explaining scripture.

And that leads to literalism and fundamentalism with all its horrible consequences.

This is an important point, Softbrain. This conversation, and its implications, completely blew my mind when I read it. So I was going section-by-section, addressing all the statements made by Prabhupada which I found disturbing.

But because it is the other statements made here by Prabhupada, and the toxic aspects of ISKCON culture which evolved as a result of them and those like them, which trouble me more deeply than the idea of King Ugrasena having four billion servants (I am not troubled by fantastic metaphysical descriptions of time, space and arithmetic outside of my present scope of perception), I completely skipped this part and therefore missed this statement you pointed out.

From the correspondence I had with Jamadagni some years back, it seemed he was no longer in ISKCON but that he identified himself as a Vaisnava. (Just my impression; I didn't ask him this direct question.) About Kanupriya I don't know.


That is very much my impression too.


"I'll say anything it takes to make you stop asking these terrible questions!" He comes across as extremely uncomfortable and defensive. He thought he knew the game, but these two don't play by the same rules and none of his proven tactics work.

"There is no 'why'"? "If you don't accept, leave us"? "You cannot ask why"?

This is how Prabhupada responded to people putting forward legitimate, reasonable, intelligent questions?

And further on in the conversation:



I guess all the self-described Prabhupadanugas in Alachua and elsewhere had better have a truckload of buzzers delivered in order to shave up the entire community because, little do they all know, they are "no more his disciples"!

"Do, or do not. There is no 'try.'"
-- Jedi Master Yoda

Was Yoda styled after Prabhupada?

And yet they say they are prepared to spend gallons of their own blood to make one true disciple.

"Do, or do not. There is no 'try,'" makes total sense to me.

"There is no 'why'...You cannot ask 'why,'" emphatically does not. That pronouncement by Prabhupada is cultish and bizarre and scary.

Yes, this is the exact point in this confidential discussion, this secret of all secrets, where the exchange goes beyond zen.

You guys (babu, Meta, ePiTau, Zanardi) are all making fun! But I think this conversation is completely horrifying! The person making these bizarre statements is the person we all surrendered to as the "as-good-as-God" "Founder Acharya," the "jagat-guru" whose books we, at least for some time, accepted as "the lawbooks for mankind for the next ten thousand years."

I have long thought, and have said so on this forum, that Prabhupada was insane. In many ways a genius, but certifiably insane. This conversation excerpt is one such evidence of it.

I do not believe he was "insane," as you say, but, judging by his many troubling statements in this conversation and elsewhere, neither do I believe he was a fully spiritually realized person qualified to absolutely control people's lives the way he did (particularly the lives of the helpless children he forcibly sent away from their families via his morally criminal "gurukula" directive).

"Although rape is not legally allowed, it is a fact that a woman likes a man who is very expert at rape." (SB 4.25.41)

"Yes, that is law always. Rape means without consent, sex. Otherwise there is no rape. There was a rape case in Calcutta, and the lawyer was very intelligent. He some way or other made the woman admit, "Yes, I felt happiness." So he was released. "Here is consent." And that's a fact. Because after all, sex, rape or no rape, they will feel some pleasure. So the lawyer by hook and crook made the woman agree, "Yes, I felt some pleasure." "Now, there is consent." So he was released. After all, it is an itching sensation. So either by force or by willingly, if there is itching, everyone feels relieved itching it. That's a psychology. It is not that the woman do not like rape. They like sometimes. They willingly. That is the psychology. Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not. This is the psychology." (Morning Walk – May 11, 1975, Perth)

"[Indira Gandhi] is not leader, she is a prostitute. Woman given freedom means prostitute. Free woman means prostitute. What is this prostitute? She has no fixed-up husband."(Room Conversation -- April 5, 1977, Bombay)

"A woman as no husband declares herself independent, which means that she becomes a prostitute." (SB 6.5.14 Purport)

Prabhupada: "So sasan ke adhikari means they should be punished. (laughs) Punished means, just like dhol, when the, I mean to say, sound is not very hard, dag-dag, if you beat it on the border, then it comes to be nice tune. Similarly, pasu, animals, if you request "My dear dog, please do not go there." Hut! (laughter) "No, my dear dog. Hut!" This is the way. Similarly, woman. If you become lenient, then she will be troublesome. So in India still, in villages, whenever there is some quarrel between husband wife, the husband beats and she is tamed (laughs). (Room Conversation—April 12, 1969, New York)

"I am also in receipt of your letters dated October 20 & 21, 1975. I note that your wife and Visalaini both gave birth to baby girls. That is the defect. I want male children but you have no stamina for it. I expected from Visalaini by her belly that it would be a boy. Anyway, never mind. The name Brijlata is nice. Why do the majority of my married disciples give birth to girls?" (Letter to Dhananjaya, Bombay, November 9, 1975)

"Sudra is to be controlled only. They are never to be given freedom. Just like in America. The Blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied."
(Room Conversation, "Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced," Mayapura, February 14, 1977)

"Certainly we are not going to say these things about the negro people publicly...you can understand that these talks are not for the public, as they have not got the ability to understand." (Letter to Satsvarupa Dasa - San Francisco, April 9, 1976)

And, about a 13-year-old child, "Yes, send him to farm, work in the field. If he does not work, beat him." (Room Conversation, Vrndavana, November 5, 1976)

a telling statement for someone who lived his life as a business selling man.

Sometimes the movie is so bad that it becomes almost good, or should I say "good as God"? But I am deeply sorry for all of us who had to suffer the repercussions. Make no mistake about that. Laughter is a good medicine when reasoning becomes tiresome.

'Laughter is a good medicine when reasoning becomes tiresome. ' Hello Zanardi. You got that right. When I went to sleep last night, my brain was broken. My first thought this morning, and I am not making this up, was 'You've got to lighten up.'
Not in any way to undermine Seeking Truth's observation of the repercussions.

Like the black guys say, 'f--k it if you can't take a joke.'

So we are censored now?

Well yes, I understand you must be a little impatient with us figures and our funny comments.

For my part it looks like this:
It was during my research for the CUP Volume, when I systematically combed through all of Prabhupada's conversations, that I discovered this gem. My theory was, and still is, that Prabhupada's conversations are very indicative of his personality and mental profile. When I first found this conversation I showed it to Dhy and posted it on an ISKCON mail forum called Topical Discussions. I called it "Prabhupada's talk with the Pralamba-kesins" (pralamba-kesin is Skt. for "one whose hair is hanging down"). Thereafter Dhy posted it on Gaudiya-Discussions. From there it seeped into here. This was almost ten years ago now. At that time I was simultaneously upset, incredulous and excited to have found such a load of self-revealing nectar. Making fun of it now doesn't mean I think it is less serious. I just can't remain serious for all too long.

some people spill gallons of semen for maya

if you just talk about sex using proper terminology there will be no problem

Wow, i did not know, that is very serious. Your feelings must have been so strong and mixed!

I remember reading it long ago, but just quick, and again i have done that. I really probably should read the quote, and then i would know a little more.

I think that this "ten thousand years" thing is a typical example of how ridiculous the whole business is. Who said this (Prabhupada) and whoever believes in it (his followers) both betray their God-given intelligence (oh how ironic) by seriously expecting and thinking that all their crazy ideas will last for that long oblivious of any and every change that might occur. Comments against women were probably a reaction to the feminist revolution taking place during those years, and the comments on homosexuality are outdated now despite the 70's-thinking of it being a perversion (and was scientifically considered a condition of mental disorder). And racism is uhm, not politically correct now that we have a black man in the White House. It is plainly obvious even for a child to see that as time passes many more changes will take place in the world that will organically outgrow many of the tenets of KC, what to speak of totally new situations presenting themselves. And these twits seriously think that their precious religion will survive 'as it is' for 10,000 years statically and not dynamically? That is why I laugh at every attempt by the conservative factions in ISKCON who scream blue murder at the slightest hint of any "innovations" going on as being a deviation from what Prabhupada taught. They should take a leaf out of the Catholic Church's book and allow any reformations to happen naturally, don't they learn anything from history? And didn't Prabhupada once suggest that ISKCON should be structured in a way similar to the Catholic Church?

I haven't read ePiTau's famous paper on the women quotes in the Bryant-Ekstrand book, but I understand that a main point is how Prabhupada's anti-women attitudes were sufficiently extraneous to what the previous Acharyas wrote in their purports to the same scriptures. In other words, isn't it so that "negative" attitudes to women were presented by Visvanatha Cakravarti, Jiva Gosvami and others, and that the Bhagavatam itself is full of choice leers and sneers at women? So people argue about the to's and fro's of Prabhupada's personal motives; I personally think that as well as his own prejudices there was the 'extra' factor of being the inheritor of Bhaktisiddhanta's gung-ho pro-celibacy Gaudiya reformatory revolution. Be that as it may, there is more history in Visvanatha's, Jiva's and others' works to contend with as well as the scriptures themselves.

And when you do a little research into other religions and realise that they also wrestle with their individual peculiarities and discriminatory histories, which were and are more profound and far-reaching than the tiny minority of GVism, and you realise that what's going on in GV/ISKCON is just history endlessly and tediously repeating itself, it makes me wonder when people will finally wake up and realise how the entire system is rotten from top to bottom and consign the whole mess to where it belongs: the trash can.

there is a god
but there isn't a religion

Thanks so much for writing this.

Yes, after I wrote that post, I was recalling how most of you guys figured all of this stuff out years ago. This is old news for most of you.

But I was not on the Internet at all until maybe six years ago, and that was only for email. And I didn't check out any devotee websites until a couple of years after that, and then it was only the ones like Dandavats. I never even knew of any of the "controversial" ones where any of these kinds of discussions were taking place. Neither did I have access to the VedaBase.

So this is all brand new for me. I only found out about the quotes posted above (the ones in my response to Strange Pilgrim) maybe nine or ten months ago. And I only read this conversation a couple of days ago. So in the head space I was in when I wrote that post, I was not really feeling impatient with you guys, just incredulous that anybody could find anything funny about that bizarre conversation. But, as you say, you and others processed it years ago.

That's one of the really interesting things about GR and how organic it is.....a number of people here have been friends for years and have been discussing these issues for years. But then "fresh bloopers" (I think this term of Eva's was so funny) are welcomed and absorbed into the mix with patience and tolerance. So on the one hand I felt stupid reposting that conversation because it's already been on GR for, like, four years. But on the other hand, I had never encountered it and felt certain that there must be lots of others out there like me.

I felt the funnies too when it plopped to mind.

You know how blooping is a bad thing but when you say it that way, "fresh bloopers," you make it sound like hot shit.

you are welcome metamorph

Thank you so much for saying that Evakurvan! Now i remember this conversation, and how i processed it, years ago.

That SDG was there doing that what you wrote, reminds me that this whole conversation is suspect in ways, i remember finding that there was a lot more, that was said, but SDG had that part removed.

Alas, I wonder, as all that has happened in the name of religion makes me wonder if there is a God, watching all and doing nothing.

ST, don't worry, the re-discussion of these issues sometimes helps to remind people of their feelings of the issue as time passes, as reactions may change and vary as time passes. I find it interesting to muse of these things from time to time, as it might strengthen some of my feelings on it and helps me realise if my own opinions and views stand the test of time.

In fact I wonder if I should do a little more stirring and ask you what you think about Prabhupada's "Gun or Gita" policy on forcible conversion?

(Just in case you're wondering, the Subal in that discussion is formerly Subal Swami)

Brainiac, you are so funny with your !

I have been trying to catch up on old GR discussions, and just spent a long time reading the entire Is Prabhupada Responsible? thread. So I don't really have the time right now to read the one you have suggested.

But I have heard that quote before and I did read what Subal wrote. And it seems completely obvious to me that ACBS meant it seriously and that it was taken seriously by the disciples who were present.

And you ask, what do I think? I think it is just one more totally bizarre statement to add to the list of bizarre statements.

What do you think?

Like the negro persons' say, 'Copulate it if you can't take a joke.'

Please forgive me a million times if this offhand remark offends sensitive minds.

This is men's business. I doubt that any woman (perhaps except for Malati, who is more of a man then most men) is privy to the mechanisms of gender class espoused by Prabhupada and his chosen (yes, he did choose them with his infinite god given wisdom) leaders.

There was, and is, a forked tongue language to keep the baggage in the cargo area.

Homer, these two texts above are just such crackers!

Make it purports to the same VERSES. It is not about what the other commentators might have occasionally said ELSEWHERE in the same scripture. The distinction is important, I believe, because in IsKCON we had been indoctrinated (by Prabhupada himself, not by his evil followers) that in each purport he followed the words and explanations of the previous acaryas. At the time when I wrote my papers I was well aware that many in and around ISKCON believed that bad, bad, persons took power in SICKON after Prabhupada, or towards the end of his days, and spoiled it all. That these bad persons were responsible for all the dysfunction in ISKcoN. I do not agree. The disciples are co-responsible, but Prabhupada is mainly responsible himself. Give credit where credit is due.

My main thesis is not that he had cheated making everybody believe the sex stuff he was constantly talking about was exactly what the entire sampradaya had also been saying non stop. That is not the point. My point in writing both papers is that when something is repeated over and over and over and over again, like women have no brain and affection for one's family is big dark maya, the celebrated CONTEXT (that my critics try to invoke to construe that Prabhupada was really way beyond gifted with every syllable he uttered) becomes irrelevant. Context becomes irrelevant if something, whatever stupid thing, is repeat many times over. I argue that the effect of these repetitions is that followers tend to accept, even unconsciously, that the repeated things are true facts. And sure enough, any good Hare Krishna male knows that women suck big time. And black people can't be trusted, come on now, homos?

There is something I wonder about, if every male in Iskcon knew women are so inferior, was there nobody ever suggesting, can we do something for the poor dears? Was there only (in the best case) laughing at women and never a more human approach?

There have been such endeavors. But whenever a man in ISKCON started to think and godforbid act for the benefit of the stri it was clear to the staunch he was in maya and was doing it just to get closer to them women. So he could get one. It was considered maya. Or, if he was already married it was understood he was under the control of his wife who influenced him to care for other women, or even children! Or it was understood he was doing it to get the adoration and gratitude of the women. Just plain maya. Sannyasis would speak about it, gurus would lecture on the topic. It was just known as "The Problem." Everybody knew women were the problem. Prabhupada had said it so many times.

Thank you eP for all chances you took at the time, for I think you were still considered a practicing devotee in ISKCON! How much feedback and pressure did you get from authorities at the time you started to put together these essays and thesis's for publication and especially when they finally became public?

Sorry Ep, I didn't mean to rile you and make you angry. I agree with you that a lot of the anti-women attitudes etc were down to Prabhupada's purports and negative attitudes on his part, which has caused dysfunction in the society. My only point was that, isn't it so that anti-women attitudes etc are also present in the commentaries of previous acharyas, let alone in verses of the Bhagavatam itself? So I was just trying to make the point that the rot seems to exist in the tradition itself, for people like Prabhupada to come along and add a lot of 'extra' things and cause more chaos.

Are the anti-women attitudes present in the commentaries of the previous acharyas and in the verses of the Bhagavatam? (That is a sincere not a rhetorical question.)

My sense was that the concept of protecting women is a prominent theme in the Vaishnava teachings, along with the concept that celibate practitioners should, understandably, avoid the temptation of women.....but that ACBS was the one who put the whole misogynistic spin on the noble aspiration to protect women.

So true. Been there done that. But I have to confess that I did like them women with their soft curves and what not. Them brahmacaris in the mean time were shaving their balls in the boys locker room and I did not find that kind of association too tempting. The Problem! Well, trouble is my middlename.

I am glad The Problem existed. Shaving balls with the boys is not my idea of having fun.

Well, Prabhupada himself authorized hitting us, if you look at all of his quotes, and this was supposed to be for our own good in the spirit of "spare the rod and spoil the child." Of course we were supposedly no more intelligent than children, after all.

As to "The Problem," well, I hope I WAS a problem!

Regarding "protection of women," other than common sense laws against rape and wife beating, being enforced strictly, I don't see that women need any further protection. The so-called protection presented as "Vedic" actually consisted of repression that reduced a woman to something that was owned and passed on from one man to another to another, never to be in charge of her poor little self.