I like the idea of conversion as being a type of recognition to a home coming. I try to remember the initial attraction, the smells, colors and sounds that did reverberate with something that seemed long gone and missing being found again. This could go a long way in explaining the ability to give so much up culturally in such a short period of time for so many, though in my instance, it took another type of Eastern practice for 10 years before feeing totally comfortable in entering the Vaisnava lifestyle.

Much of the KC experience still resonates inside me, still stirs and quakes on an inner level, no matter how much of the outer cultural manifestations or institutions I have rejected. Whatever I rejected and may still accept still is the foundation of the person that makes me up and I can't deny that ... though I do have a very hard time dealing with devotee speak, especially when confronted by someone who still practices and filters all of manifestation through ISKCON glasses, and that pertains to any true believer in any one system of belief or philosophy. I see the essence of life to be more than just mind and matter, for that aspect can be measured and theorized to the hilt without really hitting the kernal of existence of how an individual experiences life through the more subtle awareness that encompasses the human experience. All experiences can be simply called nothing more than chemical electrical charges in the brain with corresponding bodily responses, therefore taking all spiritual experiences as fanciful illusionary dreams that can be scientifically quantified. If that is true, then falling in love, being happy or sad, grieving or feeling elated and at peace are nothing more than finding the right chemical combinations to fire these experiences, allowing us to forgo living life, communicating and interacting with others, growing, learning and being ... for all we need then is an body and a warm cell to ingest the required chemical for the brain to give us the human experience.

I'm still looking for God ... don't know if it's a person or not, a being or state of existence or field of unlimited potential that sparks matter into being ... and I don't really care at this point, but this search seems to be the personal push to create and love, to bring new things into the world, to share and care for others, an undying adventure of hope in search of alleviating all the unnecessary suffering humans seem to heap upon each other, outside all the eventual suffering that comes form simply aging, accidents and facing the powers of nature, like floods, hurricanes, fires and earthquakes. Many can still do this without it being a quest for God (whatever and whoever that is), but for me and many others, the quest for the holy grail continues. That early conversion to Vaisnavism informs and warns me of all the traps and bumps on the road of self actualization, much like all of my other educations in life, so I do embrace it for that, it was definatly a trial by fire, or is my life one long flame getting its fuel from various sources until it extinguishes?

Interesting insight Aran ... it's got the gears inside my sodden head to start a spinning.

I think this was quite an amazing thing to say. Definitely a 'Golden Thought'.

Three souls on this forum keep repeating this idea. What is it about a public forum that inhibits disclosure of true belief?

I don't know who the other two souls are, but it may have to do with not wanting something that is extremely personal and important to be dissected and possible criticized. It is much easier to be critical of ideas and philosophies that you once believed in or were a part of then something you currently hold true, at least for myself that is. It may also have to do with the impersonal nature of forums, where from a distance and without being seen, we can be much more critical and negative toward a belief or idea than standing in front of strangers, acquaintances and friends and doing the same thing. I know I can be much more critical of Krsna Consciousness here on GR than if I were to be in front of old friends who are still practicing devotees, and that subtle hypocrisy does bother me at times, though slowly it does come out face to face with interesting results.

Do you think it is easier to be public about disbelief than belief? How many people here are willing to disclose everything about themselves on a forum ... or even in life in a public way ... like taking a box and standing in front of your Town or City Hall and telling everyone of your history, your accomplishments and failures, your sorrows and your bliss, your hopes, dreams, doubts and fears? When doing this, one will most likely be stared at, pointed to and laughed at, while some more serious people will gasp at the public nature of something so personal and feel pity or try to find help for you or call some authority to shut you up, while others will get a beer and some chips and watch the show as entertainment, while finally a few will befriend you and share similar stories that are relatable. I imagine all that may be the reason many here, or at least the 3 you mention are not too keen about coming forward to disclose what their true belief may be ... though I cannot pretend to speak for them, only for myself.

Something suddenly feels very raw in the room and a cool breeze is passing by, hmmm .... well at 4.07 am, such things do happen!

My journey has brought me to the place where I feel comfortable sharing cherished beliefs on this forum. I am so open that I have had non-virtual acquaintances ask me if I am Homer on GR. My life is not something I need to shield from prying minds - especially on-line ones. It is precisely that we are anonymous that enables me to share so freely. I welcome commentary from those who hold contrary beliefs to my own. This is how I have discovered much of what I actually do feel and believe rather than what I have convinced myself I believe.

And you, Kali, have brought a degree of moderation to my own views.

Thank you, sir.

Maybe true conversion is a discovery -- connecting to and affirming something essential within ourselves. In that sense it can indeed never be false and it cannot be revoked.

I have read your text, Aran, looking back to see if anything in my life would fit your understanding of conversion. There is something, but it is not homecoming, rather the opposite, losing (the belief in) a home. Becoming a Hare Krishna because it validated my feeling that the world was a wrong place to be, and then leaving that faith because it felt like the wrong place too, existentially.

If there is anything that (I believe) will never leave me, it is the split. The wish for a spiritual home and the realization that there isn't any. On a social level, I have two identities (one mainstream, one "back from the Moon"), and I do not think they will ever merge. I do not want them to merge, either. Yet if only there could be a home!

Yesterday I went to buy spices and incense from a Govinda's shop in Stockholm, since I happened to pass nearby. The atmosphere still has the pull I remember, the serenity, the sense of a refuge. I hung around there as long as I could. Strange to feel that pull, all the while remembering clearly how limiting and at times uneasy this "refuge" felt when I was an insider. I used to visit that temple and lecture there at Sunday programs.

Right across the street from where I live, Jehova's Witnesses have their Kingdom Hall. Once on a photo walk, I ended up there just as people were beginning to leave after a gathering. The same strong pull. For all the disillusionment, it is still there. Strange.

Thank you for your honest and heart-felt responses, Kali, and Dhyana.

Kali, you are one of the most expressive - and incredibly articulate (you really should write for a living) - souls I have ever encountered on GR.

Long may you illuminate these halls!

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Dhyana, your reply surprised me; I am occasionally taken aback by the feeling of sadness - perhaps the term is too strong, but there is almost a sense of great loss from some of your posts.

Maybe I'm just succumbing to melodrama again.

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Homer, to my mind, anonymity is antipathetic to true disclosure...

Call me old fashioned - and it may well be the Highlander in me - but some things are strictly for the intimacy of the hearth; for real face to face conversation; and even then, there must be a certain amount of trust and affection between the parties.

Of course, I appreciate that this may all sound a bit wussy to a seasoned old gunslinginger like yourself: Click to view attachment

But there you have it; we Celts are an emotional bunch.

Thank you, Aran. My post was not that far from melodrama... The sense of loss is there. I try to not wear it around on my sleeve but there is a small part of me that always feels it. I do not feel positive about Life. I may have brought this about myself. Something about how I think/reason does not agree well with the way I feel. If I could think in a less positivist way (cannot think of a good term, hope this one makes sense), maybe I could keep a faith. But it is so much a part of being myself that I cannot even imagine I might want to.

Maybe being an old gunslinger I have seen too many go down without ever speaking their piece.

My grandfather was a Scot and he never told me of his inner vision. He always seemed too busy working.

I understand how you feel about trust and affection. But the equation in my case has worked in the opposite way. I trust first and see where it leads. I have often been surprised at how warmly some people respond by showing me trust and affection in return.

I value what you have shared here in light of your instincts - thank you.

The scourge of intelligence.

Could your sense of unease be partially an occupational hazard - as in transference or countertransference?

Wow, I am floored by your kind words Homer ... and I really appreciate what you have said. I too have learned from you, and to get something through this stubborn Kali mind is an amazing feat! I am always learning and I hope to never think again that I know it all or have all the answers I need, and you have helped teach me that this is a good way to be, so thank you so much for that.

This is almost leaving me speechless .... but thank you from the heart so much Aran. You'll be one of the first to get that strange graphic novel hybrid coming one day soon! .

You are not alone in this Dhyana, for it exists in one form or another in many of us I think, for sure me ... so getting to hear your ideas and thoughts do add to the knowledge base of my own growth and change that is taking place, and it's always good to know you are not alone and in good company!

Dhyana, just to let you know, I was not implying that you were being melodramatic. But rather, that I was, perhaps, being so in my interpretation of, and response to, your words.

(Again, thanks to everyone for their valued replies.)

This computer and personal feelings sharing business - I never thought I would own my own computer. My first-born son has always led me to the latest technology and this screen I am staring into and this tortureous keyboard I peck at reminds me of him. He is surfing on Bali for a few weeks. The money he makes working in Karratha doing his trade is enough to set him up if he sticks at it for a few years. Back to the issue at hand...

Our Heartsafe spaces of belief and sanctity are not things to be locked away as earthly treasures to be guarded and hidden. It is not that our deepest convictions are too precious to risk being sullied by mockers. Our hard earned pearls of insights and beliefs are too precious not to share.

Doesn't matter if things change or we change because we learned something along the way from fellow shadow travelers briefly encountered on the electron highway.

I agree with this - but, as far as I'm concerned, there is a time and a place...



That is why I do not agree with this.

What is this (modern?) exhibitionistic compulsion to have everything always on display - stripped bare, dissected and out...

No thanks.

I agree with Aran in that I felt a definite sense of "homecoming" with GV. The main feature of this was mainly related to it's theology and philosophy; I felt that GV was compatible with the spiritual instincts that I had about God as a child, and that GV provided a proper framework and opportunity for those instincts to develop and flower as it were. (Or maybe I liked GV because I felt it validated my initial instincts about God?)

This led me to believe that the 'impersonalistic' traditions I had flirted with previously were way off base, and although I had been taught (or indoctrinated) that they represented the "highest" understanding of spiritual philosophy, I could never completely get into it because it all ultimately seemed like a mass of contradictions and hopelessness. So one thing that I definitely felt at home with in GV was that it's theological/philosophical framework found a resonance with what I discovered were my own instincts about God. It is not like I had these instincts consciously as I had never enunciated them, it just felt like GV had given me a vocabulary to express my instincts with. That it resonated so closely with the silent and hidden truths within myself was probably the main reason why I took it up. Where did I get those instincts from?

-----

Like Homer, I admit that I have also been slightly unsettled with the idea that we cannot discuss matters of personal faith and religion in public fora. I may be old-fashioned in that way but I still remember the ideals of the Internet when it first started out, a massive arena for discussions, debates and the exchange of knowledge, and I've participated in such exchanges and read archives of public discussions going back as far as about 1992. The Internet has historically been a place for discussion and exchange (including religious ones) and long may this tradition continue; the concern over revealing personal and private details is also a relevant one which cannot be ignored. I guess it's all upto the speaker and how much they wish to reveal; I've been on the receiving end of harassment and stalking and the dredging up of things I've written in all corners of the Net since 1995 and it isn't very nice.

But I think that this forum is sufficiently warm and 'safe' which is what Tapati said she wanted to create, and ultimately it all depends on the company of people you are conversing with. If you feel like you are in a company where you feel safe and confident about revealing personal things, that is wonderful. Again it is up to the speaker how confident they feel and how much they want to reveal. I think in this forum we're all reasonably mature people who are generally friendly to each other, care about each other and don't wish heartlessly dissect and stomp over each other's beliefs. But this is where we tread the fine line between investing a lot of emotion into our writings and then feeling sensitive (or stomped on) at the faintest sign of criticism and feeling they are personal attacks, and discussing beliefs with a sense of detachment and dispassion. No one can teach you how to walk this fine line because it comes with experience, as well as the fact that every situation is different. And historically, discussions on politics and religion by their very nature can become explosive and volatile because they happen to be at the centre of people's personal aspirations, beliefs and worldviews. Yet here we are in a forum that was set up to discuss our religious beliefs in an institution we were all a part of, and we have some political discussions too to pass the time. So there is this precarious balance between not wishing to hurt anyone with our opinions on certain subjects and yet having to freedom to indulge in such discussion as a means of enunciating them or working out our own thoughts. I'm sure some things I've said may have hurt some people and I would genuinely regret that, all I can say is that it's never been meant personally. Nothing I say is ever meant personally unless explicitly stated so.

This is really all I was trying to say; no doubt, in this regard we all differ...

Incidentally, it is not only members of GR who can read this thread. Any Tom, Dick, or Hare can take a peek.


(Excuse me taking such liberties with your post, Brainiac.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxcjJ7pN28U

To some small degree, yes. But it came before I started working with depressed or suicidal patients. (I have some patients who are "existentially suicidal," i e are calmly but seriously considering whether continued existence is any better than opting out -- and I can work with them without my own denial and other defense mechanisms interfering, because I have been considering this myself.)

Some people by their temperament seem more attuned to dangers and losses than to opportunities. Maybe that's part of it. I freak at risk-taking and losing control.

With risk of being exhibitionist... your question reminded me of an experience I had during my second or third year of psychology studies.

As part of a course in diagnostic instruments, we had to test at least one volunteer with the MMPI -- a personality inventory. A very thorough and good one, methinks way better than the SCID (used in Swedish psychiatry). I tested a neighbor at the student dorm, and then out of curiosity I filled in the test myself.

The psychology institution had only a couple of computers back then, in 1989. One of these was used by our PhD teacher for generating MMPI personality profiles. I went there to key in my two test results. The teacher was there. He looked at my neighbor's profile without saying anything. When I keyed in my own, he looked over with raised eyebrows: "Hey, what is this?" What's so strange about it, I asked. He pointed to a spot in the profile and said, "This person has a clinical lack of repression." (I felt rather proud, because it would mean one remains aware of one's experiences even if they are negative.) He asked whether it was a man or a woman, and snorted when I said woman. "Not very feminine... she is going to have a hard time with men!"

It seems I lucked out on that one. But about repression, there may be something to it.

Thank you Kali...

I find I've become more and more reticent to discuss my precise spiritual convictions out of a desire NOT to influence others' spiritual journeys. I've come, over time, to a deep conviction that each person is where they should be, spiritually, at any given point in their lives. It seems to me that spiritual beliefs serve as a vital underpinning to each person's understanding of the world (including the lack thereof). Without understanding the role that plays in the person's psyche, it might be dangerous to upset the apple cart at any given moment. My own struggles with suicidal thoughts and intentions exist in counterpoint to certain spiritual beliefs about the undesirability of acting them out. If someone were truly to persuade me that there were no spiritual consequences, no afterlife, etc., that could be very dangerous at a point where I'm in a state of severe depression. Since I can never know exactly someone else's state of mind as I converse with them online--or even in person--I prefer to err on the side of caution and not push my own belief-system. My recent encounter with an old friend who is still very much a literalist when it comes to GV and Prabhupada's words being absolutely true just reinforced this belief. If someone were to shake his faith, his very fragile world would come crashing down. If that's ever going to happen, it needs to come from his own needs and not someone's challenging him from outside. Then he'll be more ready for that kind of radical change.

Here in the U.S. we have a network of Unitarian Universalist congregations that are spiritually liberal and welcome everyone--and have a substantial atheist presence (as well as pagans). Since they are an offshoot of two movements in Europe, Unitarian and Universalist, you may find such a like-minded group near you.

For background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism



Kind of sounds like GR...

Yes, Tapati, many of us fragile beings here are hanging on by a single strand of cobsweb. We do long for a silencing of our dialogue with pain. Probably, this is the thing that drives all religion in it's dynamic form. All of us together have found our way here, on this forum, where religion has played it song to us and helped to shape our everchanging self-image fantasy. And so it must. Our self-fantasy needs the juice of change to keep it fresh and strong. It is when we hang onto to who we think we are that causes the fear of constant renewal.

Part of that freedom we seek is in having our world shattered by a fellow traveller who has seen the world in a light we have only dreamed of. Shocking, shattering, sinful; I now am forced to pass through the wilderness of the dark night of not-knowing.

Chaos is the first stop on the express train to renewal.

'Scuse me for the slight edit, but that's what I call a golden thought which definitely resonates with me.

I especially agree with the part about chaos. And I'd now like to share here that much of my chaos has been internal. When I read the posts by Seeking Truth on the other threads and so many other posts and articles written by others about the utter devastation they feel when they leave ISKCON or whichever group they belonged to, I'm a bit ashamed to say that I can't really relate to that because my chaos took place almost completely on an internal level.

I don't know why I haven't been through the wrencher with all the transitions that I've had to go through. My worlds did come crashing down, but not in ways I thought it would or have heard of. When I went through them as a believer in God, I attributed the relatively peaceful transitions to his grace and mercy as if God was taking care of my spiritual evolution and directing me accordingly. It felt as if he was ushering me from one era in my life to another, and any suffering or chaos I felt was minimised thanks to that ushering from a 'higher' and supervisory force. But now I have experienced more or less the same kind of peaceful transition from a religious era to a non-religious era in my life. Who do I attribute this to now? Could it still be God, very kindly kicking me out of his congregation and I cannot feel the pain because his feet are soft as a lotus? Or could it be down to something unshakeable within me that I have somehow managed to keep hold of my sanity during those trying times? Or were my things internal because I never had anyone I felt I could talk to, who would understand?

One thing that I can say is that with all the transitions that I've been through, they took a great deal of time to happen. My current journey from faith to a loss of faith started around 18 months ago and only now I feel the dust beginning to settle. Previous transitions were also of similar durations, and enough time was spent in internal discussion and contemplation of all the issues before I felt confident enough to make a decision one way or another. So perhaps time is an important factor in conversions, and which is why I would always say that these things need not be rushed. Or maybe it is because my processes were all completely internal and organic growth, and I never had to go through a humiliating and public process of expulsion like many people have had to go through? Perhaps this is why I can't relate that well to stories of trauma as almost all of these horror stories involve some sort of public casting out or ostracism. Transitions themselves can cause enough psychological pain, but public disclosures or expulsions have the effect of intensifying that pain and taking it up a few gears. Moderated by the time factor.

And the best part of it all is that I don't feel angry or bitter or anything like that. Perhaps there is a sense of mild to profound disappointment that may or may not be evident in my writings or post, but no extremely negative emotions as such. I genuinely feel liberated and at peace, an abiding sense of freedom.

So, assuming that my views are of any use, I only say to give these things time as they usually resolve themselves. And Homer is right, hanging onto things is detrimental I think, because change is the way of life so it is far better to embrace it than to run away when it comes a-knocking on your door.

Thankyou Tapati and Evakurvan for leading me to this. I read the thread through last night after I got back from late night kirtan.The weekly kirtan that I go to is not your standard GV type; lots of 'straight up' chanting, a variety of musical instruments, discreet toking on the porch (out of the view of the young children attending with their parents...a stern lesson learned from the open toking days and nights with Jayatirtha, in full view of the children...some who later grew into teenagers with major addiction problems) with each adult bringing his or her choice of liquid beverages and always some tasty prasadam. It is a mixed group, some 'staunch' (but not that staunch if they're gleefully, I might add, busting a few rules and regs) Prabhupad devotees (which may not be the same as disciple although initiated) Narayan Maharaj followers, uninitiated unabashed devotees of Krishna, Lord Chaitanya and Jagannath. Radha too, of course. It's just that Her name isn't on the 'greatest hits' list, and for good reason, as Aran suggests (more on that later, in the working title 'Travels with Jayatirtha'..) . Later in the evening, with a core group keeping the midnight candles burning, Madhu Pandit might break out into a solo guitar blues'/jazz fusion of Radhe, Radhe, Syam Radhe. Chatter in the kitchen. Two Godbrothers and I gravitate towards the sink, and each other (somebody has already washed up the dishes...)

VR (names other than Madhu Pandit cannot be revealed at this time for privacy reasons. Madhu Pandit is an actor, a performer. He'll love it) always, always wants to tell a story about Prabhupad. This time it's from a book by Mulaprakriti (published after her death). Prabhupad was demonstrating how to roll and cook chapattis. "The first one (or one of them) he rolled out perfectly, but the chapatti didn't puff up over the flame. A devotee in the background snickered." VR holds that thought, raising a humour-inducing eyebrow. Godbrother M pulls in closer, all ready to laugh and learn.
"Prabhupad rolls out the next chapatti, cooks it over the flame and it puffs up completely. Then he takes the (perfectly puffed up) chapatti and threw it
at the devotee who snickered." We all shared a laugh at the animated instant replay by VR, a vision of a flying still hot chapatti, aimed to graze and not really hit the head of the disrespecting disciple (otherwise the impact on the head would've been included in the original story....or was it?).

This community here that I have the good fortune to belong to is possible by my connection with Prabhupad and the Hare Krishna movement.
That I can 'see things through the eyes of scripture' (mostly Bhagavad Gita) as I approach 60, while still working part time at a senior's care home (Death's Waiting Room) is such a bonus. And coming back to GR, it's been a case of going away for a relatively long time and returning to appreciate more fully what and who this entity called GR represents. Good to be back in one of my favourite Homes.












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Homer, I don't disagree that shaking up one's world view can be beneficial. I just don't think it can or should come as a result of someone else trying to do so. Nor do I see everyone as being that fragile--but I have no way of knowing who is fragile at any given moment. If we could know that, then no one would ever be surprised by the suicide of a loved one. People are good at covering that sometimes.

I am constantly challenging my own working theory and revising it. But not everyone is ready to do that or prepared for what might happen if they are pushed into certain directions.

I agree with Braniac--it takes time. It's a process that takes place when we are ready.

Yes it truly does. Some four or five years ago, I looked for UU centers or networks near me, and was both amused and disappointed to find they did not exist in Scandinavia. Probably not by chance. The official Swedish church is so relaxed it already fills in the niche somewhat. For the Swedes born into it that is. Less so for me. If there were a center nearby, I would check it out.

Good to have you back home Bhaktavasya, and cool story. But i am confused, do you really have that nice association of Kirtan, KC type talk and bud on the porch?

Nice to hear from you again, I also visit that kind of gathering sometimes. But you do realize that GR is also part of Death's Waiting Room?

Check out the Church of the Larger Fellowship, for those with no UUA congregation nearby!

Sometimes this is how I feel, as well. I don't want to discuss what I believe spiritually (or politically) because I don't think it's right of me to try to influence others. After all, hasn't the influence of others sometimes led to disastrous consequences for me? And who am I to think that I know something, or feel something, or believe something, that is worth anything to someone other than me?

But sometimes I feel that some things have to be spoken aloud. It doesn't matter for me to believe in honesty if I am never willing to take the risk of being honest myself. Sometimes I have to be selfish and stand up for what I believe in, or to speak out for someone else. I try to be respectful and not hurtful with my words, but if what I say shatters someone else's world view despite my own care not to, then . . . there is only so much I can be responsible for.

I never know what is going to upset someone; sometimes the simple act of relating a personal story reveals my beliefs to the point that they surprise and shock someone else. I cannot go through life saying nothing about me, my experiences, my opinions and my feelings for fear that I will influence someone else in a negative way. I cannot cut myself off from others that way; I would no want others to cut themselves off from me.

We are social creatures, which means that social interaction is both very necessary to us and can have a powerful impact on us. Sometimes it will be hurtful, but that is the risk that we all run by trusting others, listening to them, and opening up. Sometimes it will change our lives for the better.

What I can do is not force my ideas on someone else. But sometimes someone asks, "How do you feel about . . . ?" or "What did you think when . . .?" If someone asks, or it comes up as part of a conversation, isn't it fair to share?

Of course, there are degrees of specificity, and details that need never be divulged . . . but I think that there are some things that can, and should, be shared. And sometimes I have the strength to share them.

Now, about the original topic of conversion/spiritual awakening. It is a powerful thing to believe in something, and sometimes there is a feeling of belonging or coming home. It is similar to falling in love. Personally, I don't think I'm capable of falling out of love--there are lovers in my past that are no longer in my life, and many bad and hurtful things may have occurred with them, but there is still a special place in my heart for them that once given, I cannot return. Similarly, Gaudiya Vaishnavism was a huge part of my family, my childhood, and my community for the first fifteen years of my life, and though I no longer believe everything that I was taught during those years, there are happy memories and strong feelings that will never go away . . . it is a part of me, and always will be.

But just as my husband is part of my life now and who I am now in ways that former lovers could never be, my current spiritual beliefs and practices fill a part of my life that GV never did. So I guess that is my conversion: not a replacement or overwriting the past, but something more. It didn't come with bells and whistles and fireworks when it happened, but there it is: I was a Vaishnava, and now I'm a Wiccan.

I agree. There is a balance to be found.

It is said we have an eternity and yet we are always short on time.

It is not a matter of needing to teach - it is what we are. Social creatures learn from their fellows and sisters. If we shy from being totally free to express emotions and thoughts then what is passed among us? Small talk or fantasies of unshakable scripture.

When I am troubled I think of swimming in the sea. If I stand unyielding before the waves I get knocked over. If I dive through the wave as it reaches me I slip through to the other side.

Either I can be pummeled by the waves or I learn to dance with the ocean.

Illness springs from resistance. Trying to control when and how we learn is to fight the rhythm of the stars. We cannot engineer the time of an awakening anymore than we can control the ocean waves.

Aran, thank you very much for the beautiful opening post in this thread. Very nicely said.

I would also like to quote Brainiac:



This is exactly my understanding as well and for this reason I still consider myself a devotee. Of course I feel the pull when I visit the Swedish temples and because of my initial conversion to GV and the spiritual training I have got I can also appreciate other sacred places. I was so amazed by the mosques in Egypt, for example, and in the evening when the chants would start I literally felt transported to Vrindavan. For this reason I have respect for SP and the institution for giving me a spiritual foundation. But ISKCON desperately needs a liberal wing and needs to stop taking itself so seriously. It doesn't have a monopoly on the absolute truth, it is simply another -ism, not much better or worse than other religions. I am extremely tired of perceiving things only in black and white, it is this kind of mentality that I distance myself from.

hey bhaktavasya i am happy my username led you somehow to this thread to make this post! - the day i find good unending kirtan is the day i get what i want since day 1 i ever spoke to a hare krishna pretending i want a recipe book, pretty much pretending everything for that excuse only. Years later, i am here where i'd been and no kirtan has been unending enough.

Hey back Evakurvan. I am compiling a list of kirtan videos that move me, again at your nudging in that direction. In the meantime, this Australian tune is a personal favorite.

Oh good now i feel like an orchestrator. Unfortunately, this link will not work maybe because you inputted it wrong via the fancy method over just pasting the ugly.url.straight.up.com

haha you are right. Here's the 'unvarnished' version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MoooK8IOLo, I hope.

Oh that is nice - a mother daughter ensemble. I have encountered before that lady and her sister's songs in a krishna chant search. Good choice.

I just want to say that I am absolutely blown away by the exquisitely beautiful and profound writings of Aran, Homer, Kali, Dhyana and Brainiac in this discussion.

I want to leave the negativity behind and heal and grow and move forward in a deeper, truer spirituality, and I am deeply inspired by this discussion. Thank you all.

GR is an amazing place and I consider myself most fortunate and priviledged to be a part of it.

It is, and we are.

Thank you.