A Vaishnava Web Site (Vaisnava Blog Feeds) uses a BBC program on sensory deprivation as proof and propaganda extolling the madness of impersonalist meditation versus the practice of Krsna Consciousness.

Quote from website:
“As the impersonalist meditator, who tries to avoid suffering by annihilating his individuality and develop detachment from the external world by shutting their senses off from the external world, these volunteers decide to undergo an experiment adopting similar practices. The video describes the horrible and permanent consequences they experienced. That goes to prove the truth of Srila Prabhupada’s and the Veda’s conclusion that the living entity can never be inactive, not even for a moment.”

The BBC program is about deep sensory deprivation and how it is used in the torture of prisoners. The program features 5 subjects, one who is a meditator of some type, who go through an experiment where there are locked in a room for 48 hours with their senses blocked. The devotee’s behind this web site are using this show as some type of scientific proof that a human being deprived of their senses for 48 hours is equal to the experience and effects of silent meditation.

I wonder what would happen if you locked an ordinary person, or even a practicing devotee, into a small room with streaming KC videos brightly being shown continuously for 48 hours accompanied by rip roaring kirtans? Would this over sensory input effect a person just as much as the deprivation did, using the same tests that were put to the subjects after their 48 hours?

At the end of the video, the participants actually were more amazed at the beauty of the ordinariness of the world around them and appreciated it much more too. Would this imply that silent impersonal meditation makes one more aware of the beauty that surrounds us all and is usually taken for granted?

Hhmmm…nobody wanted to talk about that!

Why Impersonalism is Bad

I would go screaming into one of those rooms just for the experience.

It's a question of knowing what to do with your mind. If you have no ability of mental control sufficient for pratyahara, your mind will be unfit for prolonged single-pointed homogeneity.

It is very important to talk about why Mayavadis suck at every lecture this is part of the process to attain love of Godhead and heart and not just God's head like those Mayavadi intellectualists.

Anyway even without the blaring flashing lights and bright pink prasad preparation forced sensory overload dislocation just the typical temple with the constant on-the-go busy body noisy atmosphere I think would likely lead to a nervous breakdown for many religious contemplatives.

It reminds me a bit of a day care where you keep forming events and committees to keep the ADHD kids busy, unbored and distracted. Like the pretty coloured baubles over a baby's crib to keep them entertained.

This Yeats stanza from the poem Adam's Curse reminds me of the KC reprimand I heard that it is Mayavadi to want to be alone.

Or the movie One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest where the nurse locks the doors of the patients' rooms so that they sit all day all watching TV with others in the lobby. And one patient asks: Do you mean to say it is sick to want to be alone?

Or the debate between bhajananandi and preacher.

"Better go down upon your marrow-bones
And scrub a kitchen pavement, or break stones
Like an old pauper, in all kinds of weather;
For to articulate sweet sounds together
Is to work harder than all these, and yet
Be thought an idler by the noisy set
Of bankers, schoolmasters, and clergymen
The martyrs call the world."

jIvera svarUpa hoya eiDI-eijhDI kRSNa-dAsa |
dhyAna-hIna ati-gatika bhedAbheda prakAza ||

I tell you, most people with an ISKCON background can't keep their minds still for a god damned second. There is no meditation there, period. At least at Radhakund we had some visualization efforts going on à la Tantra and Tibetan Buddhism.

Prabhupada was trying his whole life to wrench the world out of the clutches of Bauddhas and Mayavadins. Now his faithful followers continue his great work. This is very inspiring. Fearless and free from false confusion are these staunch preachers.

yes the whole world is shriveling in misery due to such philosophies, whether we know it or not. only thinking of god as horny young boy can save us now. the damn offenders just cant understand that

So I thought that this would be a discussion of impersonal and personal features of God. But this discussion is not to be found. The atheists have no business in such a discussion since they do not believe in what they are discussing.

Some of mighty intellect, again merely resort to subtle and not so subtle slander of the theists, Prabhupada in particular. Undeviated from a path of unbroken Vaishnava criticism, they may indeed attain the stated goal of becoming a photon blown around by the wind. We will of course mainly remain silent, let nature take it’s course, like Bhishma at the Rajasuya of Yudisthira, listening to Sisupala criticize Krishna.

And to others…the verse ‘brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabyate’ does not enter your consciousness in a discussion of impersonal and personal features of God? In reality most Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus are not impersonalists. Discussion with them reveals they harbor instinctive impulses of love directed toward the one supreme being, no matter what their present information of Him reveals. And who is not instinctively attracted by beauty when manifest in a person. Only the envious. This is not some repeated statement meant to intimidate, but my own observation based on first-hand experience. Everyone loves beauty and the sight of beautiful children, etc., and yet some cannot relate material beauty to anything theistic? This athiesm is a disease of the heart that must be cured somehow or other. I wish them well.

The temporary world is full of individual personal beings. Do you think that their origin, the impersonal/personal God has not individuality and personal existence too? Of course this logic is not atheistic logic. There is real application to the words and preachings of devotees of God. Somehow that logic does not come easily to those of mighty intellect, those beyond both the personal and impersonal, situated in their own abode that is free from theism. Yet some like you believe in radio signals and science. By the might of your own intellect, and heartless discrimination, you may attain your stated aspirations, let there be no doubt!

dayalu, this is really beautiful stuff you have written! so often your writing is like crusty chips of paint that have fallen off a rusty radiator but these words are right from the furnace. its nice to see you finding your fire. i know too that even more eloquent words were written but you crawled back from your divine effulgence. go for it bro. toss your editing pen into the furnace for extra heat. speed of consciousness writing. first draft and done.

I am a part time impersonalist / part time lover (like tuna turner) and in a sense agree with nothing said here, but even I found the part about "photon blown around by the wind" et. al. cool, and the vivacity/energy/effort put into writing that especially that it would be knocked down immediately on a board where no one would agree and everyone would find it an offense, like a holy raid. Bug spray on your mark.

I never had this point of view like dayalu darts out here but since most of you here were once hardline KCs who talk like him for a a year, or two, a decade I would imagine that you would at least sympathize even more than me with airing such a point of view instead of potentially censoring it as an offense to your temple.

eva, i'm having a hard time figuring out what you have written but i agree with it

its great here when people finally blow their lid cuz for once, they aren't cutting and pasting wise blurbs from the holy books or behaving as they are instructed too

i for one though, wasn't a hardline kc but a hairline kc

inside it is a competition about who is more hardline
outside it is a competition about who drinks more wine

Yes because the very qualified are so free of material desires and sensual attachment that they can't speak of god in any other terms than as a beautiful woman (with slim waist and ample breasts) because surely the apex to everything that ever births lives and rots is beauty like being 12 years old and the most beautiful with lots of fabulous jewelery.

Sensationalist, underhanded tactics reminiscent of Ted Patrick's. Or at least so I gathered from the intro (couldn't open the vid). Figuring that the whole mission of Mayavadism as given to Lord Siva was to hide Radha-Krishna from those who They are clearly not for, why should KC be blabbed upon those who choose 'no variegatedness'? That was clearly not the method Chaitanya used with Prakasananda. If they need relief from variety to appreciate variety maybe they need even more relief from varieties of religion to appreciate transcendental variety.

this theist for one thinks its unfortunate that theists have centered their missionary objectives around ample breasts

I wonder why I am not familiar with Mayavadi inventions of comical storylines about how Radha and Krishna are just spiritual Ken & Barbie dolls to play with for those who, due to just not being all that, can only approach divinity through comic book pictorials or if there is a love story involved (like any good blockbuster) - until they are ready to look at something without pictures or something less jujube to daydream (smaranam) about as they fiddle with their meditation training wheels called japa beads.

I myself would never say something like that outside of comedics I would find it a bit clowny and simplistic.

It would seem they are not so in need to make themselves feel chosen by dissing others (for extra rad ras in their lila jazz) with dopey stories to prove why we are #1. They just do not get the confidential secret like we do, they just jealous wink. Yeah wink wink just like little girls. It is okay though, it is all part of being a preteen in the spiritual world, adolescents also have special snowflake syndrome - I find it sassy and tasty.


I think Shiva would be very unhappy you are using his name for this tomfoolery.

It would have looked much cooler had that been a photo of a shrewish man, wouldn't it

That's Gloria Swanson and she doesn't look Shrewish. Then again -- maybe she's a SAP (Shrewish American Princess). That was the famous scene when she finally snapped (after killing William Holden) and said, "All right Mr. De Mille, I'm ready for my close-up." Definitely one of the best movies ever made.

Onto the topic of theism and atheism. What was the question?
Oh -- yeah --- to me the great irony is that the intelligence, power of thought and speech and the very existence of the living being comes from God. Therefore when an atheist argues about the nonexistence of God it's kinda like me borrowing money from you so I can buy a gun and shoot ya down. No?

Swarup das you are swooping fast with cool facts. Here the Swanson saga there the bit on Janis Joplin for the fun bin. I hope you shower down more these stories here. Also weird Prabhupada named you Swarup and he named another devotee I think tells cool poems Satsvarup. I think svarup means in sanskrit forms good stories and sat means right on.

Amazing that you would be saying that. I joined ISKCON at the 61 Second Ave. center in the summer of '69 and took initiation when Prabhupada came back to the USA from London in late December of that year. All of us from the New York temple (yeah -- all twelve of us) went up to Boston and that's when I was initiated. Now in charge of the Boston temple at the time was Satsvarupa. Actually Giriraj ran the show as temple commander because Satsvarupa was still working for social services in Boston. Anyway -- anyhow -- any port in a storm --- a few hours after I got my name, neckbeads, japa beads and membership badge (no -- that was when I joined the Archie fan club) -- Satsvarupa came up to me and nervously said, "I had a dream about you last night and in my dream Prabhupada named you Svarupa. Now you and I have an eternal common bond."

Oh -- and why the name Swarupa? I was Brahmananda's secretary at that time (pre-GBC) and the Big B ran ISKCON second only to Prabhupada. So when Prabhupada asked Brahmananda his opinion on what to name me Brahmananda said let's name him Swarup Damodar because his service is being my secretary. Prabhupada's response to Brahmananda was, "so I suppose that would make you Lord Chaitanya?" Prabhupada decided to drop the "Damodar" (I suppose he was saving that name for Dr. Singh who joined a few years later).

If all you kids are good I'll tell you my "sacred throwout story" one of these days.

That is also cool because if you had read my old profile which I changed only 2 days ago you would see I am like a wannabe (servant of the servant of the servant of) Swarup Damodar. All that servant to look righteous. I think Swarup Damodar has the luckiest job in all existence. His whole job is to sing songs to magnify Caitanya's mood to make him go even more crazy. Tell me what's cooler.

What a cool thing Satsvarupa said to you.

Tell more Satsvarupa stories.


I did not know why I started making those goofy word associations I was thinking to remove it in case someone asks me why am I so goofy - but see this is prime pro-goof proof that putzing about is psychic, maybe you, me, Satsvarupa and Milla with her above average psychic abilities should all get together and form a psychic alliance i hear lady cleo is in jail

don't think eva will be posting till evening, she's tied on a good one last night and has a bit of a hangover, she could have a morning bloody (bloody mary) to grease the wheels but being she's a pure outsider, won't drink anything but wine

unlike you imitators and cheats i write none of this crazy baloney intoxicated

i can keep going but have a life to attend to like organizing my deity clip-on earing collection and other doodads

Watch out I just got a Rhinestone and Stud Setter by Ronco for Their Lordships pleasure.

http://www.nostalgia.condoris.net/ronco/rhine.htm

Like Dolly Parton said, I never leave any rhinestone unturned.

I mean some would think playing arts and crafts is not so much stilling of the mind but that is because they chose 'no variegatedness,'* like Ras says. I mean, their meditation is just so boring and a drag. I mean why do that when we can play with all these pretty rhinestones. We have red, blue, orange, all the colours. Shiny too. I don't mean to sound yogically egotistical or anything but that is what we call detachment from the rabble bauble of this world, real absorption. Hey hey those are transcendental baubles you are speaking about.

* I understand what you mean by that because I am part of your cult too so familiar with its wacky explanations of other paths but explain Buddhism like that otherwise it would be really a funny exchange like visit the Eskimos in Alaska and start trying to tell them about seal-hunting in Swahili, it sounds very ridiculous.

I don't really view Gaudiya Vaisnavism like that but it makes for a hilarity of a reduction to quash it, doesn't it.

I have seen that the only things most IGMers know about 'personal/impersonal' (whatever the hell that subjective terminology means), is what they have simply imbibed from fundamentalist IGM training, therefore the discussion is rather limiting and usually only ends with the same lame analogies and diatribe against 'impersonalists' that we learned in ISKCON (usually ending in ad hominem attacks on the offenders when they fail to 'surrender', as modeled by ACBS himself, and practiced by his devoted followers), and most defenders of the faith have no actual knowledge of 'impersonalism (?)' or even Buddhism (which is actually a tradition). Madhvacarya would not be proud.

Plus when discussing with IGMers, the issue is further muddied in that the supreme person is actually Krishna, which not even many 'personalists' agree on. 99% of Indian Hindus would likely be termed 'impersonalists' by IGM logic. Of course, whomever more forcefully bashes the other is the actual possessor of truth.


as far as I have seen, its only IGMers that really get hot under the collar about this stuff (following the acaryas). most older Indian sects have moved onto other pastimes the last couple of centuries, and have found newer enemies to bash such as Muslims and Communists.

Therefore, i defend my, and others, right to glib comments and jokes on mayavadi/athiest witchunting. (impersonalist greeting)

Hey Angrezi what's all this birdfeed are you turning into the birdman or something?
First the baby bird big bird ballyhoo in your avatar in parallel position,
then the peculiar looking man of yours in the profile roster in identical birdish posture.

Does he have something to do with your thread about the proper squaty way to pass stool? This is very very veridic vedic information if you want naughty Krishna to love you.

i'm not sure of the connection you see between diverse phenomenon eva, but I respect your respect for vedic pooping, and can offer some pointers and an instructional video if you like

The 2 birds in your avatar and the picture of the man in your profile are all perfectly parallelyalligned but I'm not here for jolly frivolity or tongue twisting or nothing so I'll stop.

I model this off the best modelers like Prabhupad. Serious, I do enjoy his bold and brashness which can easily be misconstrued as obnoxious know-it-all-ness (if that is what you want to do) as sung by the singing robot in epitau's avatar. I think that is missing the vibe of Prabhupad, to read him mathematically and condemn him over his technically drippy evaluations, make protestations, take back the prostrations head down on the floor. When really the guy is an artist (!), a great Leo performer, and is more into making brazenly inelegant equations that fly in your face for flourish, and proud of it.

He is right, bhakti is first for ras enhancement - not full-proofing, base-covering, brain fluff aggrandizement. With all this talk of bliss, you would think that the masses turn to religion for an opiate ! - a heroin fix. It is irrelevant and inconsequential to try to nix it like computer code. If tabulative query is what you want go worship at the feet of a savant why wish upon such an intangible star as Radharani's maidservant. Those grown weary in Vraj tarry for a barrage from the samsaric spiral - the waves grow tidal - but the play is getting tedious the audience chants for the finale. Spare me the paltry consolation prizes like mind relish at the squeaks made by mental mastications thrown into the sea sick swirl for pleasure. I can't say I disagree with them, where does that kind of pleasure go? Round and round and why it rounds nobody knows, I want to vomit I want off.

Or maybe you are just really into swirlies and other cool elite pictograms. But come on, dovetail that, it is not that different from that pictionary school of devotion. you know. One time I had to write an essay and the teacher wrote at the topmost of the page do not worry about making slippery connections or backing up your ideas with a lot of quotes if it makes for saying something bold, thought-provoking and creative. I think Prabhupada got that, you hogs.

sorry beloved viewers if like babu and angrezi you are not sure what i am writing but i assure you it is very escateric i have to credit my Blessed gurus like medical dr. Seuss.

One of my best friends growing up was named Buzz, and he was an extremely escateric type of person, it could be escary at times. He usually spent chunks of the year meditating alone in cabins somewhere in the upper peninsula of Michigan, living on brown rice and green tea. He would eventually come down and consume a couple of dozen chocolate Hostess Ding Dong cakes and smoke Indian bidi’s for balance. Eventually he developed this ability to break glass when he felt stressed out, which was an indication that he needed to go back up to the cabin for a few more months of silence. I remember being with him in a convenience store, standing in a long line in order to buy some chips, when the plate glass window behind us burst into a thousand little pieces, he just shook his head and said, “time to go!”

Buzz eventually became a missing person, never to be seen again, had a ticket for India and a passport on his dresser with a few thousand dollars, but he never returned home. We all figured he merged with that escateric state so many of us are searching for.

I think Ananda would of liked Buzz. Devotees may have found him problematic, even though he would always stop and join a kirtan in downtown Detroit whenever we saw one, for he was an impersonalist meditator who was the most personal human I have ever met.

Buzz loved Spiritual Sky Strawberry Fields incense, that and hand painted tennis shoes with stars, sun and clouds all over the place, plus he also read Dr.Suess along with the I-Ching.

I love the word escateric ...and most likely...so would of Buzz.

Wow that's the best story ever, this thread is turning from the impersonalist thread to the party time best stories thread. More.

And I am also waiting for those Satsvarupa stories I think since you turned away from him me and Darwin, fellow vomit enthusiast, are his only fans.

He did write that book Vomitorium after all.

Yeah maybe me you and Buzz should conflate together the most shit secret serious teachings from various schools to make a watercress soup. Fresh with finesse with fennel on top - the movement needs reform - take the cult out of the occult. We can call it the teachings of Madame Blablatsky. We can serve it in aluminium vats like at a Sunday Love Fest. Maybe add some croutons for crunch the last thing we want is to be watered down. This is a universal principle in Western Escateric philosophy.

I was really tempted to say philoscoffy or theosophomoric
but that might be overkill.
I'm no ritvik or nothing.

Before you start throwing out your labels, like IGM, or let’s take it farther like Hindus, Muslims, Christians, or Atheists, Personalists or Impersonalists, you must admit that there is only one kind of living entity, the jiva, who adopts many relative conceptions that he finds suitable in a certain position. Stripped of all these designations we could then examine the jiva, your 'self'. This is the position Bhagavatam takes, Sukadeva makes a similar statement. Krishna says this when he says the living entity carries his different concepts like the air carrying aromas. We are to try to see in that universal way, one kind of living entity, various impressions. And to know what each impression (religion) is in general. Filled with such materially limiting designations and thus having no engagement, what then is the meaning of any and all scriptural knowledge?
Since the position of knowing Krishna as God is dependent upon stripping away all designations and ideas incompatible with unmotivated service, His actual position is known by few. His mercy, sent through souls like Prabhupada, is the only means to know Him, to some degree, and that means His service. There is much more to this.
KC is simple, it is the engagement of the non-designated soul. Not a speculation or an interpretation.
You did not know Prabhupada or BR Sridhara in their lifetimes (maybe just recorded words) and how first and foremost their order was to engage anyone in some small way in service. Not spend excessive time reading books. Serve and knowledge of the bewildering sastra comes later, naturally.
Now the universal, non designated vision of the jiva will be required to experience and know the universal, omnipresent God, Who bears no such temporary designation. Hindus may call Him Krishna but we are not Hindus and we know Him as the One Universal Absolute, described partly in various books by sages of all orders. Yes we are happily Mahaprabhu’s sold out servants, we have nothing else but Him, and when a verse like:

jivera ‘svarupa’ haya——krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’
krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa
suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya
svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ‘sakti’ haya
“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krishna because he is the marginal energy of Krishna and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krishna has three varieties of energy. Madhya 20.108-109

…is considered it must bear all applied universal implications that are free from material designations. Oh, we did not discuss God, why He is, His personalities, potencies, the revelations coming down that must be applied, etc. but I am finished writing for now.

You know brown rice and green tea are staples of mine as well. I eat them to ground myself and grind out the terror I get because I am so esoteric that people don't get me and say what I wrote does not make sense. Like how they don't get what orthodox Gaudiyas mean by transcendental adultery because they are too sensuous to get it. I am often terrified to show my teaches partially due to their incomprehensibility to the uninitiated like angrezi and babu.

Well said, Eva!

I often felt about many devotees whom I saw IRL or in the web that they try to access Radha-Krishna in a brain-heavy, technical way. They always look for better technical manuals, and some of them familiarize themselves with them for quite an extent. They are putting up a high yield of sadhana, they work, they put in it all the effort. They learn the techniques and do them. But there seem to be a lack of emotion - the thing bhakti is all about. They just look for a recipe of perfect suffering management. The process they are doing is comparable to someone trying to learn how to fall in love by reading psychology books about the topic, because they heard that it is an enjoyable thing to do. It can help somewhat in tackling the obstacles, but if you don't find a suitable partner, you are doomed.

(Disclaimer: I don't mean that all devotees are like that - some are, and regardless of their sectarian affiliations, be it Iskcon, GM, Trad Gaud or whatever else out there.)

And some of these manuals seem to be very impersonal any way. I felt that ISKCON philosophy is very impersonal, with all the emphasis on Bhagavad-gita, be the same neutral to all effects you encounter, surrender and do austerities thingie... What is neutral to all the effects? What is that that doesn't lament when bad things happen and doesn't rejoice if things are favorable?

It is the matter. The most impersonal thing that exists. It never suffers, because it can't.
It is the personal beings who are capable of suffering and rejoicing. Trying to renounce this capability is like trying to be matter. (I have no problem with those who want to do so, and I don't think it is an offence against any other person, including Radha and Krishna. I just find it to be not my taste. Yes, there is suffering, but you have some power in determining the amount of it, only with some phase delay.)

That's a good post, do you mind if I think on that and comment back after about 10 years?

On the Gita stuff though, I think you're supposed to be neutral to effects on yourself, but happy or sad about the happiness or misery of others. I'm sure there are others who have arrived at this state of mind without learning the Bhagavad-gita. Americans are notorious for degrading each other in any given type of way, so one way of doing that would have more or less been the opposite approach - smack Gita quotes over the head of each other instead of really learning it.

I'd like to hear more stories of the early days (as opposed to the later, crazy days) also. I'm amazed that I've known Swarup since August of 1974 and I haven't heard these stories before, other than mentions of how he drove Prabhupada around since he'd had taxi driving experience (if memory serves me).

I still have all of his old letters from the seventies, by the way.

Come on, Swarup, maybe you should start a topic about the olden days.

This one required a drink-spewing warning! Meditation training wheels!!

Hey Chanahari

I have to second the disclaimer you wrote and apply it to anything I've ever said about any topic. I don't think I ever do it because it becomes linguistically encumbering to but it is implied. "Disclaimer: I don't mean that all devotees - some are, and regardless of their sectarian affiliations, be it Iskcon, GM, Trad Gaud or whatever else out there." Also I am always referring to GVers as "they" which is also a kind of convention.


Oh and I am interested in technical and any aspects of sadhana (in GV case chanting...) I do not think they even talk enough about that. I do not totally agree with everything you said but enjoyed reading your opinion.


Tapati lol yeah I know it was funny myself writing that I have been outlandishly spewing the buffooneries all over your house lately.

nothing really matters

James Hetfield, singer of Metallica, singing a devotional bhajan, sang: "nothing else matters (but Krishna)."

Even he was a devotee of the Lord. Just like George Harrison with his 200 cars. If you do not see everyone as a devotee of Krishna you are not uttama. Especially though famous rock stars.

hi epitau i like your far out post style
of dropping anything, it is free
and reminds me of your photo as a youth haha

I don't believe in a lack of emotion. Everyone is capable of emotions. But falling in love requires some key components, freedom and spontaneity being perhaps the most important ones. The scope for a bhakta's personal freedom in ISKCON was rather narrow. The technical manuals and fear of aparadha are to blame, not just the individuals. First the religion scares the aspiring devotees off from following their own minds and hearts, and tells them to just follow the authorities. Then, some years down the road, the same religion will shame them for not feeling love for Krishna.


Ditto. Useful disclaimer.


It's sure not the stock exchange!


What you say above is like saying: "Molecules never fly, because they can't. It is the flies that are capable of flying."

In other words, I see no proof of a sharp divide between matter and persons.

Matter is the most personal thing that exists, too.

If youre happy prabhu, I'm happy. we're all one afterall (ps Krishnas body was maya -mayabody)

This is the kind of model modest close
prabhupada should have posed
for us, on a catwalk of equipoise and bhakti
instead of trumpeting about like a pop-eyed lout
with all that D & H dog and hog stout
perhaps he just needed a lassi

Maybe then instead of all that D & H he could have at least been at level D & G
(Dolce & Gabbana) 1st class culture allure guru couture.

Your dart is dull. Maybe a cheap import? You need some higher grade stuff!

my point exactly

dodge dart