Out there are numerous groups who present the Ritvik philosophy.
I am well aware of some of the history regarding how Prabhupada requested it to be enacted.
With several groups out there using "Ritvik" as a means to further their agenda...
How do others view these on going debates (feuds).
~Kavi
Full Version: Ritvik Politics
As much as I know about all this, I believe Prabhupada really wanted ISKCON to go ritvik (or rather to continue to be ritvik, as the practice was already established then). The last unambiguous Prabhupada tects show like that, and Tamal's later word slips seem to reaffirm this. This is one of the conclusions I reached in the last days of my ISKCON tenure. (Not the one that made me leave ISKCON though. By that time, I got to question the principle of guru and parampara altogether.)
Of course, the power hungry elevens and their sidekicks wanted it otherwise, and they plotted either to convince the ailing guru to "initiate them into guruhood", or to get rid of him. Whether they really poisoned their guru or not, i don't know - I can easily imagine they did, it is an IGM tradition after all, and I can imagine just about anything about characters like Bhavananda or Kirtanananda; and when Prabhupada was out of their way, they could do as they wanted.
Ritvik or not - it doesn't matter much to me now. I found that the non-ritvik ISKCON leadership is full of persons whom the average pickpocket on the street surpasses in moral values. But Prabhupada is someone whom I have my cultural and theological differences with too. He is way above his successors, but out of these issues I wouldn't want to follow him, so none of the ritvik groups appeal to me either.
Of course, the power hungry elevens and their sidekicks wanted it otherwise, and they plotted either to convince the ailing guru to "initiate them into guruhood", or to get rid of him. Whether they really poisoned their guru or not, i don't know - I can easily imagine they did, it is an IGM tradition after all, and I can imagine just about anything about characters like Bhavananda or Kirtanananda; and when Prabhupada was out of their way, they could do as they wanted.
Ritvik or not - it doesn't matter much to me now. I found that the non-ritvik ISKCON leadership is full of persons whom the average pickpocket on the street surpasses in moral values. But Prabhupada is someone whom I have my cultural and theological differences with too. He is way above his successors, but out of these issues I wouldn't want to follow him, so none of the ritvik groups appeal to me either.
To me the term "ritvik" itself is useless, cuz' the only place it can be found within Prabhupada's words, is coming from his disciple, tamal.
Although, now knowing what the word means in sanskrit, i agree with Chanahari, that the practise was already set up, and working nicely before the word ever came into being. There were many many disciples, amongst the householders and temple presidents, already performing those duties well. One was at the temple where i joined in 1977. He became my adopted father, when i was a teenager and lost my parents to their own feuding.
He told me many things which i believe today. He told me that Prabhupada was going to Gita Nagari to work on several things that he saw as broken within his movement. Like the "making of brahmanas" who later proved to not be brahmana. "showbottles". So his idea was to set up the farm community, where there could be naturaly made brahmanas, but also vaisya, and ksatriya and sudra too, as his followers. Also he was going to show the importance of having the Protected Cow as the center of all the Varnas, along with the Deity. The Gurukula was on the list of broken things too, that would be fixed. I was told he was going to fix these things, all parts of the lifestyle he was promoting, "Simple Living-High Thinking".
But then i was also told that Tamal had taken over the running of the movement, and even Prabhupada's moving from one place to the other. Because on the way to Gita Nagari, where we were all set up to help him fix the problems within the society, tamal did not allow him to continue on. And in london they turned around, and went back to Vrndavan.
Then you can read in the conversations, that tamal's badgering against Prabhupada's wishes continued to manipulate the movement.
To the point where past the famous "july 9th" letter that tamal wrote and got forged to read as though it was authorized by ACBS. You can hear the badgering there on july 7th, when Prabhupada twice says "no, the senior man can do" to the idea of having only a few names named for the program of initiations that was already in place. But after the second time of tamal badgering Prabhupada on his death bed, about naming names, he gives in, and does give the names. But at this time, we understand that Prabhupada was in the mood of giving them what they wanted of the brick and mortar, if they would just allow him to go. So then to tamal's great happiness, the ritviks get their faction of named ritviks, all bogus men, leaders of the shadow iskcon.
Then later in November, again we hear Prabhupada asking for what he called the "cure" for him, and his movement. He wanted to be allowed to go on Parikrama to Govardhana Hill on Ox Cart and drink Milk. He said it was the "Cure" just like when he said he would cure the ills of iskcon by going and doing essentially the same at Gita Nagari. But tamal&co.™ would not allow that.
So then with the named ritviks in place, and Prabhupada dead in their eyes, they became full zoned out acharyas, and kept the showbottle initiations going, the abusing of Gurukulis going, women as 2nd class, and cows as something to be exploited for milk, living on "karmi farms".
That letter of the ritviks should always be judged by it's outcome, "judge a thing by it's result. a.c.b.s." =zoned out acharyas and today's "iskcon"
~violeta's meta
Although, now knowing what the word means in sanskrit, i agree with Chanahari, that the practise was already set up, and working nicely before the word ever came into being. There were many many disciples, amongst the householders and temple presidents, already performing those duties well. One was at the temple where i joined in 1977. He became my adopted father, when i was a teenager and lost my parents to their own feuding.
He told me many things which i believe today. He told me that Prabhupada was going to Gita Nagari to work on several things that he saw as broken within his movement. Like the "making of brahmanas" who later proved to not be brahmana. "showbottles". So his idea was to set up the farm community, where there could be naturaly made brahmanas, but also vaisya, and ksatriya and sudra too, as his followers. Also he was going to show the importance of having the Protected Cow as the center of all the Varnas, along with the Deity. The Gurukula was on the list of broken things too, that would be fixed. I was told he was going to fix these things, all parts of the lifestyle he was promoting, "Simple Living-High Thinking".
But then i was also told that Tamal had taken over the running of the movement, and even Prabhupada's moving from one place to the other. Because on the way to Gita Nagari, where we were all set up to help him fix the problems within the society, tamal did not allow him to continue on. And in london they turned around, and went back to Vrndavan.
Then you can read in the conversations, that tamal's badgering against Prabhupada's wishes continued to manipulate the movement.
To the point where past the famous "july 9th" letter that tamal wrote and got forged to read as though it was authorized by ACBS. You can hear the badgering there on july 7th, when Prabhupada twice says "no, the senior man can do" to the idea of having only a few names named for the program of initiations that was already in place. But after the second time of tamal badgering Prabhupada on his death bed, about naming names, he gives in, and does give the names. But at this time, we understand that Prabhupada was in the mood of giving them what they wanted of the brick and mortar, if they would just allow him to go. So then to tamal's great happiness, the ritviks get their faction of named ritviks, all bogus men, leaders of the shadow iskcon.
Then later in November, again we hear Prabhupada asking for what he called the "cure" for him, and his movement. He wanted to be allowed to go on Parikrama to Govardhana Hill on Ox Cart and drink Milk. He said it was the "Cure" just like when he said he would cure the ills of iskcon by going and doing essentially the same at Gita Nagari. But tamal&co.™ would not allow that.
So then with the named ritviks in place, and Prabhupada dead in their eyes, they became full zoned out acharyas, and kept the showbottle initiations going, the abusing of Gurukulis going, women as 2nd class, and cows as something to be exploited for milk, living on "karmi farms".
That letter of the ritviks should always be judged by it's outcome, "judge a thing by it's result. a.c.b.s." =zoned out acharyas and today's "iskcon"
~violeta's meta
I think ritviks are the living proof that Prabhupada was unable to settle his affairs before he left.
Or else he really grossly misoverestimated either the intellectual capacity of his disciples, or the clarity of his utterances.
Or else he really grossly misoverestimated either the intellectual capacity of his disciples, or the clarity of his utterances.
both sides have the problem of explaining to their kids such philosophical picadilloes as "vagina licking culture" whereas iskcon has some further complication of explaining "why does my guru has poop on his penis?"
good, now the buffoons have spoken, we are enlightened. 
QUOTE
The term Buffoon is used to define someone who provides amusement through inappropriate appearance and/or behavior
There are several groups out there under the "Ritvik" headings. One in particular, it seems that in their endeavor, that verbal vomitage comes out of the wood-work.
Maybe others are familiar with the "National Inquirer" HK magazine I'm referring to.
The way I saw/see the principals behind Ritvik is simple
Develop a relationship with Prabhupada,
Cut out any middle man.
Rather than enabling people to develop their own relationships, or seek out their own spiritual path, you've got these groups demanding obedience. Take a number, get in rank, and don't ask questions.
Organized religion of any name is going to develop flaws, because people end up doing strange f*cking things when they get in a group. Namely the conservation of power amongst the elite individuals holding the esteemed positions. Which would explain why Ritvik is a four letter word amongst various groups.
When there is a lot of resources invested in the organization, and it's being poorly run, it understandable that people would want to reclaim it. (Un)fortunately you can't just go stomping on peoples territory, and claim it.
If the idea is to continue Prabhupada's vision of "Simple Living-High Thinking", why then are (most) people not out there striving for that? The obvious answer is that people would like to follow their own agenda, and why would vanashram fit into that? However when there is groups who supposed agenda's is to follow his guidelines, why are not at least trying?
~Kavi
Maybe others are familiar with the "National Inquirer" HK magazine I'm referring to.
The way I saw/see the principals behind Ritvik is simple
Develop a relationship with Prabhupada,
Cut out any middle man.
Rather than enabling people to develop their own relationships, or seek out their own spiritual path, you've got these groups demanding obedience. Take a number, get in rank, and don't ask questions.
Organized religion of any name is going to develop flaws, because people end up doing strange f*cking things when they get in a group. Namely the conservation of power amongst the elite individuals holding the esteemed positions. Which would explain why Ritvik is a four letter word amongst various groups.
When there is a lot of resources invested in the organization, and it's being poorly run, it understandable that people would want to reclaim it. (Un)fortunately you can't just go stomping on peoples territory, and claim it.
If the idea is to continue Prabhupada's vision of "Simple Living-High Thinking", why then are (most) people not out there striving for that? The obvious answer is that people would like to follow their own agenda, and why would vanashram fit into that? However when there is groups who supposed agenda's is to follow his guidelines, why are not at least trying?
~Kavi
QUOTE (Chanting_Warrior @ Mar 13 2008, 07:10 PM)
There are several groups out there under the "Ritvik" headings. One in particular, it seems that in their endeavor, that verbal vomitage comes out of the wood-work.
Maybe others are familiar with the "National Inquirer" HK magazine I'm referring to.
The way I saw/see the principals behind Ritvik is simple
Develop a relationship with Prabhupada,
Cut out any middle man.
~Kavi
Maybe others are familiar with the "National Inquirer" HK magazine I'm referring to.
The way I saw/see the principals behind Ritvik is simple
Develop a relationship with Prabhupada,
Cut out any middle man.
~Kavi
Accept for all "ritviks" put a middle man just there in the middle to do that work! A "ritvik" is the middle man! A faction of 11 was a bad idea, not the founder/acharyas idea.
Before ritvik, there were voted in temple pres. doing that, they were the closest thing to proper "middle man". But that was lost late in 76.
As far as "varnashrama" it is a natural character of EVERYONE, even buffoon like atheist have a character, which falls into one of the 4 descriptions.
if it isn't broke, why broker?
QUOTE (metamorphosis @ Mar 13 2008, 02:23 PM)
good, now the buffoons have spoken, we are enlightened.
QUOTE
The term Buffoon is used to define someone who provides amusement through inappropriate appearance and/or behavior
However appropriate the name might seem, we still don't allow name-calling here.
QUOTE (metamorphosis @ Mar 14 2008, 06:52 AM)
As far as "varnashrama" it is a natural character of EVERYONE, even buffoon like atheist have a character, which falls into one of the 4 descriptions.
The big problem arises as to who appoints these class distinctions (varna's) to everyone?
Usually a self appointed Brahman who loves to tell everyone just how to live their life!
It would seem that people now days are extremely mixed in terms of falling into one category, though individuals with need for ego stroking will always want to be either of the priestly class or warriors, nothing quit like being on top for many!
I see varnashram as this need to impose a more simple outdated social structure on a very post modern world that many have a hard time understanding, where democracies try to strive for equality among the sexes, races and classes to some degree. I wonder if the Vaisnava fundamentalist see varnashram the same way fundamentalist Muslims view Sharia law?
If my atheist friends are considered baffoons here on GR, then I want to be an honorary baffoon!
QUOTE (Kalisurfer @ Mar 14 2008, 05:50 PM)
If my atheist friends are considered baffoons here on GR, then I want to be an honorary baffoon!
its "buffoon" you baffoon
QUOTE (Kalisurfer @ Mar 14 2008, 04:50 PM)
QUOTE (metamorphosis @ Mar 14 2008, 06:52 AM)
As far as "varnashrama" it is a natural character of EVERYONE, even buffoon like atheist have a character, which falls into one of the 4 descriptions.
The big problem arises as to who appoints these class distinctions (varna's) to everyone?
Usually a self appointed Brahman who loves to tell everyone just how to live their life!
It would seem that people now days are extremely mixed in terms of falling into one category, though individuals with need for ego stroking will always want to be either of the priestly class or warriors, nothing quit like being on top for many!
I see varnashram as this need to impose a more simple outdated social structure on a very post modern world that many have a hard time understanding, where democracies try to strive for equality among the sexes, races and classes to some degree. I wonder if the Vaisnava fundamentalist see varnashram the same way fundamentalist Muslims view Sharia law?
If my atheist friends are considered baffoons here on GR, then I want to be an honorary baffoon!
Agreed, i always thought that the idea of the farm community was to have a occupation for all, and people would just do what they were good at, no need for someone to tell them what to do. Atleast that is how we did it in the "old days".
I don't think you could be a buffoon Kali, you don't fit the definition as well as the others, sorry.
QUOTE
someone who provides amusement through inappropriate appearance and/or behavior
Ritviks can be seen getting rid of the middlemen of spiritual connection to God and the founder acharya, but I see it just as a political reactionary movement against the ills of ISKCON and it's guru problem. Most Ritviks come across very political and idealogical with their frustration and anger toward ISKCON history, using fundamentalist spirituality as their basis for ideological warfare against the liberal loose leaders who are besmirching their one and only truth and guru. Their presentation is extremely negative, which is ironic, for they are supposed to be expressing the highest expression of positive love for God as exhibited by there one and only founder acharya.
Actions speak louder than words and everything that I have seen and read from Ritvic leaders are reinforcements of what I remember as the worst experiences of ISKCON. Suppressed angry individuals full of judgment with fingers always pointing toward everyone outside their righteous camp as the problem, rarely do they have the openness to look upon themselves in a critical light, and they seem to speak to the choir while trying to drag in other disgruntled devotees into their clan of reformation. Some of most active Ritvic voices out there come across as authoritarian and shrill as the Guru’s, Sannyasi’s and devotees that they slam and denounce. Some of these guys are just itch’n for some leadership position in a new reformed Taliban style ISKCON of their dreams.
For those who like the ritvic philosophy and feel home in it, should by all means start a community somewhere and get inside prayer circles within their new temples, all in half lotus positions with their arms and hands pointing outward toward the world, yelling “You’re the problem, hare hare, listen to my truth, krsna, krsna, you’re the problem, hare rama, listen to me, rama rama…me…me…me-right…you…you…you-wrong!”
Actions speak louder than words and everything that I have seen and read from Ritvic leaders are reinforcements of what I remember as the worst experiences of ISKCON. Suppressed angry individuals full of judgment with fingers always pointing toward everyone outside their righteous camp as the problem, rarely do they have the openness to look upon themselves in a critical light, and they seem to speak to the choir while trying to drag in other disgruntled devotees into their clan of reformation. Some of most active Ritvic voices out there come across as authoritarian and shrill as the Guru’s, Sannyasi’s and devotees that they slam and denounce. Some of these guys are just itch’n for some leadership position in a new reformed Taliban style ISKCON of their dreams.
For those who like the ritvic philosophy and feel home in it, should by all means start a community somewhere and get inside prayer circles within their new temples, all in half lotus positions with their arms and hands pointing outward toward the world, yelling “You’re the problem, hare hare, listen to my truth, krsna, krsna, you’re the problem, hare rama, listen to me, rama rama…me…me…me-right…you…you…you-wrong!”
QUOTE (babu @ Mar 14 2008, 06:03 PM)
QUOTE (Kalisurfer @ Mar 14 2008, 05:50 PM)
If my atheist friends are considered baffoons here on GR, then I want to be an honorary baffoon!
its "buffoon" you baffoon
As a bonafide baffoon, I am stricken with your implication that I could be a mere...buffoon!
You're from Massachusetts, the home of Baaston Red Saax, you should be very familiar with baaffoons.
QUOTE (Kalisurfer @ Mar 14 2008, 05:28 PM)
QUOTE (babu @ Mar 14 2008, 06:03 PM)
QUOTE (Kalisurfer @ Mar 14 2008, 05:50 PM)
If my atheist friends are considered baffoons here on GR, then I want to be an honorary baffoon!
its "buffoon" you baffoon
As a bonafide baffoon, I am stricken with your implication that I could be a mere...buffoon!
You're from Massachusetts, the home of Baaston Red Saax, you should be very familiar with baaffoons.
baffoon : An obnoxious or oafish person.
QUOTE (Kalisurfer @ Mar 14 2008, 02:24 PM)
Ritviks can be seen getting rid of the middlemen of spiritual connection to God and the founder acharya, but I see it just as a political reactionary movement against the ills of ISKCON and it's guru problem.
There is where I personally try to divide principals and politics.
I prefer to stay further than a poles distance from the political aspects (not a computers distance apparently) in my personal daily life and agenda.
You point out eloquently the hypocritical flaws that the Ritvik groups all too often embody.
Pull down one flawed leader and post up another equally unqualified person(with a different agenda).
Even some of the groups (at least one first hand) that I have witnessed use the guise of Ritvik or devotion to the Acharya, meanwhile it's a matter subtle/overt disempowerment to the individuals personal endeavor... "No don't buy their subscription! Buy mine because I'm right, and my ideas are bigger and BETTER!"seems to be their advertisements.
In some brief, fleeting moment of clarity I once had I thought it appalling that a religious organization such as the KC movement could be so divided. How a group with something/someone as the center focal point could become so bitter and resentful towards of ones with similar (however slightly different) viewpoints.
Then I figured it's some petty, superficial approach towards spirituality.
Why was I ever surprised?
~Kavi
There is only one prophet, I just dont know who it is or is there any? 
QUOTE (zanardi @ Mar 15 2008, 05:56 PM)
There is only one prophet, I just dont know who it is or is there any?
There are tons and piles! And, as a rule, the dead ones are more saintly than the living.
There is only one God and Maohammed is HIs prophet....
implication only one true prophet......
implication only one true prophet......
the true prophet is profitable
QUOTE (babu @ Mar 15 2008, 05:50 PM)
the true prophet is profitable
I belong to a non-prophet organization.
QUOTE (metamorphosis @ Mar 14 2008, 10:05 PM)
I don't think you could be a buffoon Kali, you don't fit the definition as well as the others, sorry.
QUOTE
someone who provides amusement through inappropriate appearance and/or behavior
A buffoon he may at this point in time not be yet, he is more like a bluffoon in comparison. But by association, cultivating the mood and following in the footsteps...
profiterole, the choice desert of profitable prophets
QUOTE (ePiTau @ Mar 15 2008, 05:23 PM)
QUOTE (zanardi @ Mar 15 2008, 05:56 PM)
There is only one prophet, I just dont know who it is or is there any?
There are tons and piles! And, as a rule, the dead ones are more saintly than the living.
Indeed, death brings more saintliness and authority than life. How queer and strange these mortals are!
QUOTE (Brainiac @ Mar 16 2008, 09:17 AM)
QUOTE (ePiTau @ Mar 15 2008, 05:23 PM)
QUOTE (zanardi @ Mar 15 2008, 05:56 PM)
There is only one prophet, I just dont know who it is or is there any?
There are tons and piles! And, as a rule, the dead ones are more saintly than the living.
Indeed, death brings more saintliness and authority than life. How queer and strange these mortals are!
As an added bonus, the dead ones do not any longer take part in the profits.
QUOTE (zanardi @ Mar 16 2008, 08:22 AM)
QUOTE (Brainiac @ Mar 16 2008, 09:17 AM)
QUOTE (ePiTau @ Mar 15 2008, 05:23 PM)
QUOTE (zanardi @ Mar 15 2008, 05:56 PM)
There is only one prophet, I just dont know who it is or is there any?
There are tons and piles! And, as a rule, the dead ones are more saintly than the living.
Indeed, death brings more saintliness and authority than life. How queer and strange these mortals are!
As an added bonus, the dead ones do not any longer take part in the profits.
and the dead will forever be saintly cuz the dead don't get no tail
Click to view attachment
QUOTE
Ritvik Movement Calls it Quits:
Unable to Think Up More Silly Names for ISKCON Gurus
March 7th, 2008
LOS ANGELES (THE HING) - The Ritvik movement has announced that it will be disbanding this week after members concluded that their arsenal of silly names for ISKCON gurus has finally been exhausted.
“While the basis of our philosophy is that Srila Prabhupada never told his successors to become gurus in their own right, 95% of our movement was based solely upon silly names for ISKCON gurus,” said Ritvik leader Prema Caitanya das. “And now that we’ve run out, there’s not much more we can do.”
Historically, the Ritvik movement kicked off its campaign of silly names with the now classic “Ravana Svarupa.”
“We knew we were onto something when we discovered that certain ISKCON gurus’ names could easily be changed to something mean or vulgar,” Prema Caitanya said, “We knew it hurt ISKCON deeply.”
To counter these funny names, ISKCON, convinced that ignoring the Ritviks would be enough, waged a war of attrition.
For the next two decades, the Ritvik movement fought an uphill battle against ISKCON’s guru policies. A string of silly names for ISKCON gurus marked their victories.
Perhaps the Ritvik movement’s crowning achievement was the one-two punch of simultaneously changing “ISKCON” to “IT’S-A-CON” and “ISHCON, International Society for Hindu Consciousness.”
“I thought we had them there,” Prema Caitanya reminisces, “it took them several years to recover, and when they did, we hit them where it really hurt.”
Sociology professor, Harold Floyd, an expert in ISKCON relations, agreed. “After the two-pronged “ISKCON” attack, most experts concluded that the feat could not be topped. But coming up with a gem like ‘Rotten-nath’ knocked ISKCON back on its heels.”
“‘Rotten-nath’ nearly dealt us a death-blow,” said ISKCON spokesperson Vivek Shani. “It was a dark time for our movement, we knew that if they hit us once more like that, we would be finished.”
Though devotees and scholars alike questioned how they could top it, as it turned out, it was their swan song. The Ritvik movement struggled for several years since the “Rotten-nath” victory, including several failed silly name attempts.
“Who would have thought that nobody cared about ‘Beer-Krishna Goswami’ or ‘Viper-Mukhya’?” Said Prema Caitanya. We knew we were really at an end when some new Ritvik convert blurted out ‘Shave-ananda Swami’ in an ISKCON chat room.”
According to Prema Caitanya, that is when the Ritvik movement made its decision.
In a press release issued by ISKCON a day after the Ritvik movement’s surrender, it was stated that ISKCON knew all along that “sooner or later the Ritviks would run out of silly names for our gurus.”
As a gesture of goodwill, ISKCON has lifted the ban on Ritvik adherents. Shani asserts that though they have been enemies for so long, “the Ritviks are once again welcome in ISKCON temples.” Adding, “at first they can come and participate in kirtan, but very soon they will be giving class and taking part in temple management.”
Prema Caitanya, who has just recently quit his job as a bank teller to become president of ISKCON’s Birmingham temple, concedes, “I was duped into thinking silly names could prove ISKCON wrong, but through the grace of guru and Gauranga, I could see that I was the one who was mistaken.” Adding, “besides, the pay is better.”
While the Ritvik movement has officially disbanded, it is reported that militant factions of ritvik guerrillas have set up camps on the hills overlooking several rural ISKCON centers. It is unclear what their motives may be. This story is still developing.
Unable to Think Up More Silly Names for ISKCON Gurus
March 7th, 2008
LOS ANGELES (THE HING) - The Ritvik movement has announced that it will be disbanding this week after members concluded that their arsenal of silly names for ISKCON gurus has finally been exhausted.
“While the basis of our philosophy is that Srila Prabhupada never told his successors to become gurus in their own right, 95% of our movement was based solely upon silly names for ISKCON gurus,” said Ritvik leader Prema Caitanya das. “And now that we’ve run out, there’s not much more we can do.”
Historically, the Ritvik movement kicked off its campaign of silly names with the now classic “Ravana Svarupa.”
“We knew we were onto something when we discovered that certain ISKCON gurus’ names could easily be changed to something mean or vulgar,” Prema Caitanya said, “We knew it hurt ISKCON deeply.”
To counter these funny names, ISKCON, convinced that ignoring the Ritviks would be enough, waged a war of attrition.
For the next two decades, the Ritvik movement fought an uphill battle against ISKCON’s guru policies. A string of silly names for ISKCON gurus marked their victories.
Perhaps the Ritvik movement’s crowning achievement was the one-two punch of simultaneously changing “ISKCON” to “IT’S-A-CON” and “ISHCON, International Society for Hindu Consciousness.”
“I thought we had them there,” Prema Caitanya reminisces, “it took them several years to recover, and when they did, we hit them where it really hurt.”
Sociology professor, Harold Floyd, an expert in ISKCON relations, agreed. “After the two-pronged “ISKCON” attack, most experts concluded that the feat could not be topped. But coming up with a gem like ‘Rotten-nath’ knocked ISKCON back on its heels.”
“‘Rotten-nath’ nearly dealt us a death-blow,” said ISKCON spokesperson Vivek Shani. “It was a dark time for our movement, we knew that if they hit us once more like that, we would be finished.”
Though devotees and scholars alike questioned how they could top it, as it turned out, it was their swan song. The Ritvik movement struggled for several years since the “Rotten-nath” victory, including several failed silly name attempts.
“Who would have thought that nobody cared about ‘Beer-Krishna Goswami’ or ‘Viper-Mukhya’?” Said Prema Caitanya. We knew we were really at an end when some new Ritvik convert blurted out ‘Shave-ananda Swami’ in an ISKCON chat room.”
According to Prema Caitanya, that is when the Ritvik movement made its decision.
In a press release issued by ISKCON a day after the Ritvik movement’s surrender, it was stated that ISKCON knew all along that “sooner or later the Ritviks would run out of silly names for our gurus.”
As a gesture of goodwill, ISKCON has lifted the ban on Ritvik adherents. Shani asserts that though they have been enemies for so long, “the Ritviks are once again welcome in ISKCON temples.” Adding, “at first they can come and participate in kirtan, but very soon they will be giving class and taking part in temple management.”
Prema Caitanya, who has just recently quit his job as a bank teller to become president of ISKCON’s Birmingham temple, concedes, “I was duped into thinking silly names could prove ISKCON wrong, but through the grace of guru and Gauranga, I could see that I was the one who was mistaken.” Adding, “besides, the pay is better.”
While the Ritvik movement has officially disbanded, it is reported that militant factions of ritvik guerrillas have set up camps on the hills overlooking several rural ISKCON centers. It is unclear what their motives may be. This story is still developing.
QUOTE (babu @ Mar 16 2008, 02:44 PM)
QUOTE (zanardi @ Mar 16 2008, 08:22 AM)
QUOTE (Brainiac @ Mar 16 2008, 09:17 AM)
QUOTE (ePiTau @ Mar 15 2008, 05:23 PM)
QUOTE (zanardi @ Mar 15 2008, 05:56 PM)
There is only one prophet, I just dont know who it is or is there any?
There are tons and piles! And, as a rule, the dead ones are more saintly than the living.
Indeed, death brings more saintliness and authority than life. How queer and strange these mortals are!
As an added bonus, the dead ones do not any longer take part in the profits.
and the dead will forever be saintly cuz the dead don't get no tail
1. Those who just passed away with an angelic smile and folded hands?
2. Those who died doing battle with atheists and buffoons?
3. Those killed or poisoned (hint, hint, hint) by wicked disciples?
4. Those executed by the state?
5. Those who killed themselves?
6. Those who died uttering names like Satan, Jesus, Mary, Crap, Hell?
QUOTE (ePiTau @ Mar 16 2008, 02:38 PM)
Which ones are most saintly?
1. Those who just passed away with an angelic smile and folded hands?
2. Those who died doing battle with atheists and buffoons?
3. Those killed or poisoned (hint, hint, hint) by wicked disciples?
4. Those executed by the state?
5. Those who killed themselves?
6. Those who died uttering names like Satan, Jesus, Mary, Crap, Hell?
1. Those who just passed away with an angelic smile and folded hands?
2. Those who died doing battle with atheists and buffoons?
3. Those killed or poisoned (hint, hint, hint) by wicked disciples?
4. Those executed by the state?
5. Those who killed themselves?
6. Those who died uttering names like Satan, Jesus, Mary, Crap, Hell?
Of course I don't want to spoil it for anybody it but the right answer is no.1 (no.6 is partly right). The other answers are wrong.
As an illustration, an old ISKCON joke (disclosing deep spriritual sentiments... 
):
Q. What should you do if you find yourself in a closed room together with Hitler, Osama and a ritvik, and you have a gun with two bullets?
A. Shoot the ritvik twice to ensure he is dead.
):Q. What should you do if you find yourself in a closed room together with Hitler, Osama and a ritvik, and you have a gun with two bullets?
A. Shoot the ritvik twice to ensure he is dead.
Ritviks and worshipers of Swami Prabhupada have recently joined forces!
Both camps agree that even today baby Jesus is still way more popular than baby Prabhupada. After a thoroughgoing study of the situation by the Shastric Advisory Committee it was decided that the problem was caused by the immaculate conception of baby Jesus. "Our Swami Prabhupada will remain eclipsed by Jesus as long as there is no unassailable evidence that baby Prabhupada was immaculately conceived," says Dasa Ph.D. of PURIN (Prabhupada's United Rescue Initiative), the newly formed organization aiming to establish Prabhupada as savior of the world.
The Bhaktivedanta Institute has tried to solve the difficulty by claiming that according to Hindu belief ghosts and spirits are unclean. Therefore, they argue, Mother Mary's contact with the Holy Spirit cannot be seen as "immaculate." Pre-11-Prabhupada worshipers also noted that since the Holy Ghost is unlikely to have performed the garbhadhana-samskara the conception of baby Jesus must be considered impure!
Prabhupada worshipers are now hoping to show that baby Prabhupada was in fact immaculately conceived, just like baby Krishna. No ghosts and spirits, not even a garbhadhana-samskara: pure heart-to-womb transfer of Goldmann's Divine Bliss Energy! Wow . . .
Both camps agree that even today baby Jesus is still way more popular than baby Prabhupada. After a thoroughgoing study of the situation by the Shastric Advisory Committee it was decided that the problem was caused by the immaculate conception of baby Jesus. "Our Swami Prabhupada will remain eclipsed by Jesus as long as there is no unassailable evidence that baby Prabhupada was immaculately conceived," says Dasa Ph.D. of PURIN (Prabhupada's United Rescue Initiative), the newly formed organization aiming to establish Prabhupada as savior of the world.
The Bhaktivedanta Institute has tried to solve the difficulty by claiming that according to Hindu belief ghosts and spirits are unclean. Therefore, they argue, Mother Mary's contact with the Holy Spirit cannot be seen as "immaculate." Pre-11-Prabhupada worshipers also noted that since the Holy Ghost is unlikely to have performed the garbhadhana-samskara the conception of baby Jesus must be considered impure!
Prabhupada worshipers are now hoping to show that baby Prabhupada was in fact immaculately conceived, just like baby Krishna. No ghosts and spirits, not even a garbhadhana-samskara: pure heart-to-womb transfer of Goldmann's Divine Bliss Energy! Wow . . .
QUOTE (ePiTau @ Mar 22 2008, 02:50 AM)
Ritviks and worshipers of Swami Prabhupada have recently joined forces!
Both camps agree that even today baby Jesus is still way more popular than baby Prabhupada. After a thoroughgoing study of the situation by the Shastric Advisory Committee it was decided that the problem was caused by the immaculate conception of baby Jesus. "Our Swami Prabhupada will remain eclipsed by Jesus as long as there is no unassailable evidence that baby Prabhupada was immaculately conceived," says Dasa Ph.D. of PURIN (Prabhupada's United Rescue Initiative), the newly formed organization aiming to establish Prabhupada as savior of the world.
The Bhaktivedanta Institute has tried to solve the difficulty by claiming that according to Hindu belief ghosts and spirits are unclean. Therefore, they argue, Mother Mary's contact with the Holy Spirit cannot be seen as "immaculate." Pre-11-Prabhupada worshipers also noted that since the Holy Ghost is unlikely to have performed the garbhadhana-samskara the conception of baby Jesus must be considered impure!
Prabhupada worshipers are now hoping to show that baby Prabhupada was in fact immaculately conceived, just like baby Krishna. No ghosts and spirits, not even a garbhadhana-samskara: pure heart-to-womb transfer of Goldmann's Divine Bliss Energy! Wow . . .
Both camps agree that even today baby Jesus is still way more popular than baby Prabhupada. After a thoroughgoing study of the situation by the Shastric Advisory Committee it was decided that the problem was caused by the immaculate conception of baby Jesus. "Our Swami Prabhupada will remain eclipsed by Jesus as long as there is no unassailable evidence that baby Prabhupada was immaculately conceived," says Dasa Ph.D. of PURIN (Prabhupada's United Rescue Initiative), the newly formed organization aiming to establish Prabhupada as savior of the world.
The Bhaktivedanta Institute has tried to solve the difficulty by claiming that according to Hindu belief ghosts and spirits are unclean. Therefore, they argue, Mother Mary's contact with the Holy Spirit cannot be seen as "immaculate." Pre-11-Prabhupada worshipers also noted that since the Holy Ghost is unlikely to have performed the garbhadhana-samskara the conception of baby Jesus must be considered impure!
Prabhupada worshipers are now hoping to show that baby Prabhupada was in fact immaculately conceived, just like baby Krishna. No ghosts and spirits, not even a garbhadhana-samskara: pure heart-to-womb transfer of Goldmann's Divine Bliss Energy! Wow . . .
Holy Bethlehem, if this is true, can we still keep the tradition of Christmas trees, Santa Claus and gift giving? Will we have to recast Jolly old St.Nick into some type of solemn flying danda sanyassi telling us that it is better to give to God than to humans, and that the only tree necessary is Tulsi, which we decorate with love and prayers? From Christmas to Prabbupadmas...well there goes the economy, for without the seasonal need to buy and wrap, there goes the Capitalist model...we will all just have to depend on Vanasharama and divine mercy!
Immaculate conception versus ejaculate deception, why is it that purity only comes from virgins? Being human is always regulated to the category of fallen and impure, while miracles are necessary for the creation of theology and religion.
Will PURIN be the new Purim, celebrating a new spiritual victory over its enemies?
Only time will tell as once again, the few active GR members fall into the pit of in-club humor debasing belief with chitty chatty bang bang! Will the PC police notice? Will the outcry begin? Will someone be put on notice? Who will get nailed to the wall next? Stay tuned and turn out!
• • 
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• 
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The Hing
QUOTE
Ritviks Posthumously Initiate George Harrison
August 15th, 2008 · Comments Off
Former Beatle and Hare Krishna icon, George Harrison, has finally taken initiation - 40 years after meeting Srila Prabhuada and seven years after leaving his body. was given ritvik initiation on behalf of Srila Prabhupada.
“The initiation of the famous Sriman George Harrison is a long-overdue and auspicious occasion,” said Kapirasa das, who performed the ceremony on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. “His name is now Sriman Hari das.”
Since meeting the devotees in 1969 until the time of his death, ISKCON had been trying to woo Harrison to their cause. Harrison, who often seemed to distance himself from the organization, remained what he called a “plain clothes devotee,” abstaining from meat eating, but not illicit sex and intoxication.
“It is true, he was never able to follow the regulative principles,” said Kapirasa das. ” but now that he has left his body, that is no longer an issue.”
ISKCON representative, Matsaryam das, expressed disgust at the initiation asking, “How can the ritviks do this?” asked When Srila Prabhupada was on the planet, he would have to approve of invitations prior to the ceremony. Now that he is no longer with he, he can give no such approval.” Adding, “besides, everybody knows we had dibs on George!”
“Yes, ISKCON had dibs,” conceited Kapirasa das, “but according to ISKCON’s initiation policy, the disciple has to be alive. Fortunately, being presently on this planet has no bearing to our philosophy.”
Shortly after meeting the devotees, George Harrison told Srila Prabhupada that he wanted to shave up, take initiation and move into a temple. Srila Prabhupada disagreed, stating, “just continue your music and Krishna will be greatly pleased.”
Kapirasa das agreed with Srila Prabhupada’s instruction. “Yes, at that time for Sriman Hari prabhu, those were the perfect instructions. But we must act according to time, place and circumstance. Now that his music career is over, it is time for him to seriously take to Krishna consciousness.”
ISKCON argues that the famous George Harrison was not a follower of the Ritvik ideology. “He was a true vaisnava, a follower of ISKCON,” said Matsaryam. “It is just simple fact that no other means of spiritual realization is as effective in this age of quarrel and hypocrisy as being a member of ISKCON.”
According to sources within the Ritvik camp, a dozen or more devotees have been waiting to take Ritvik initiation. Not from Srila Prabhupada, but from Sriman Hari das, George Harrison.
“After Srila Prabhupada left our mortal vision, we began performing posthumous ritvik initiations on his behalf,” said Kapirasa das. “I see no reason why, since Sriman Hari prabhu has left his body, that we cannot perform initiations on his behalf as well.”
August 15th, 2008 · Comments Off
Former Beatle and Hare Krishna icon, George Harrison, has finally taken initiation - 40 years after meeting Srila Prabhuada and seven years after leaving his body. was given ritvik initiation on behalf of Srila Prabhupada.
“The initiation of the famous Sriman George Harrison is a long-overdue and auspicious occasion,” said Kapirasa das, who performed the ceremony on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. “His name is now Sriman Hari das.”
Since meeting the devotees in 1969 until the time of his death, ISKCON had been trying to woo Harrison to their cause. Harrison, who often seemed to distance himself from the organization, remained what he called a “plain clothes devotee,” abstaining from meat eating, but not illicit sex and intoxication.
“It is true, he was never able to follow the regulative principles,” said Kapirasa das. ” but now that he has left his body, that is no longer an issue.”
ISKCON representative, Matsaryam das, expressed disgust at the initiation asking, “How can the ritviks do this?” asked When Srila Prabhupada was on the planet, he would have to approve of invitations prior to the ceremony. Now that he is no longer with he, he can give no such approval.” Adding, “besides, everybody knows we had dibs on George!”
“Yes, ISKCON had dibs,” conceited Kapirasa das, “but according to ISKCON’s initiation policy, the disciple has to be alive. Fortunately, being presently on this planet has no bearing to our philosophy.”
Shortly after meeting the devotees, George Harrison told Srila Prabhupada that he wanted to shave up, take initiation and move into a temple. Srila Prabhupada disagreed, stating, “just continue your music and Krishna will be greatly pleased.”
Kapirasa das agreed with Srila Prabhupada’s instruction. “Yes, at that time for Sriman Hari prabhu, those were the perfect instructions. But we must act according to time, place and circumstance. Now that his music career is over, it is time for him to seriously take to Krishna consciousness.”
ISKCON argues that the famous George Harrison was not a follower of the Ritvik ideology. “He was a true vaisnava, a follower of ISKCON,” said Matsaryam. “It is just simple fact that no other means of spiritual realization is as effective in this age of quarrel and hypocrisy as being a member of ISKCON.”
According to sources within the Ritvik camp, a dozen or more devotees have been waiting to take Ritvik initiation. Not from Srila Prabhupada, but from Sriman Hari das, George Harrison.
“After Srila Prabhupada left our mortal vision, we began performing posthumous ritvik initiations on his behalf,” said Kapirasa das. “I see no reason why, since Sriman Hari prabhu has left his body, that we cannot perform initiations on his behalf as well.”
That is the logical extension of ritvik philosophy! Maybe when I die I can finally get second initiation! 
A couple of taped conversations in not very clear English, a letter, a very indirect interpretation of SP's will and the statements of Gauri das Pandit and Yasodanandana, is not a strong foundation upon which to build the 'ritvik' lineage, especially when we look at the historical circumstances surrounding the tapes and letters, i.e, that forgery is in the air, holding back of letters, doctoring tapes etc etc. If sincere disciples of SP exist, continuing what SP established, they can accept disciples, in my opinion. The problem is many have, under the power of illusion, taken on the role in a wrong way and with wrong motivation. Who actually follows SP's idea of what Iskcon should be? Where are the harinams? The spiritual franchise Iskcon rather than the corporate centralised GBCism and multi plenitude of management positions? The Varnashram Dharma and cow protection? The individual spontanaiety of early Iskcon where did that go? It should be pretty easy enough to see just who is sincerely following Prabhupada and the original Iskcon spirit, there are enough sources for this. Whatever we think of how correct these sources are is another issue, but it is something that can be determined pretty easily with any group- who is sincerely trying to continue the original mission can be worked out by anybody whether they believe or not. For all I know SP could have established the 'post mortem ritvik vada' 
but then it could have all been some frantic grasping of straws by those who 1) wanted to suceed as gurus- thought their intiation into Iskcon management secrets was the only way for Iskcon to survive, 2) who wanted ritiviks to suceed SP so they could start a rival group to Iskcon. Meanwhile while they both spend their precious time arguing back and forth, other issues get avoided and the original preaching missions endeavors becomes stunted. Out of the two there is more spontaneity in Iskcon, and the principle of guru however tainted, still exists, and they can read other books besides those of SP, on the other, in the ritvik, it is SP only and the individual spontaneity is more curbed.
Both however are fanatics- SP has got everything right, moon landing hoax, literalisation of Bhagavatam, etc etc and they cant accept that even an acarya can have these kinds of mistakes, as part of the lila (and i'm not talking about the deluded self appointed types here- but even that is lila, as all is in my opinion- including mine and yours too). For example in Mahabharat there are examples of mistakes being made by direct associates of Krishna.
A kind of Prabhupada modernism and modernism with the whole IGM and Bhaktivinoda Thakura is needed in my opinion. We see the pattern anyway, how initially SP changed things according to time, place and circumstance, so we see that in regards to Iskcon GM principles only chanting on beads daily and following regulative principles seems to be common denominator, not to mention deity worship and missionary endeavor, there is besides this a principle of flexibility. SP changed 64 rounds to 16, allowed men and women side by side in ashrams, and other GM branches have different standards too. Of course flexibility is here set within tradition to, and that tradition does indeed have a tendency towards modernism and adapting to the circumstances anyway, traditionally! Both Ritvik and Iskcon lag behind in this need to adapt, and Ritvik more so than Iskcon.
Anyhow these are just a few of my thoughts on ritvik, which i was involved with and yet was not much of a fanatic, quite mellow in fact, and questioned it all, went along with it to some degree and saw my wrong motivations also and pulled out. But I have to say one thing, between Iskcon and Ritvik, the Ritviks have more study of SP going on in their temples, and more of a direct contact, they take him more seriously, whereas in Iskcon he seems more distant sat there on his vyasasan and limited to Bhagavat drips in morning classes. And in both Ritvik and Iskcon there is not much study of Bhaktivinoda and other previous figures, Goswami writings etc going on too (yet more so in Iskcon). There will exceptions to this too in both branches. Those busy using the terminologies of the anti-cult cult and its psychiatric inventions and impositions and terminologies and using these to 'decondition' themselves from bad experiences of 'brainwashing' in Iskcon, and see Iskcon history only in terms of zonal acarya-ritvik and abuse scandals, Im afraid i must say that I feel this approach misses the point too, for there are other factors in Iskcon history, a history which reads like other groups and movements which are associated somewhat with the Counterculture in their more seedier side.
but then it could have all been some frantic grasping of straws by those who 1) wanted to suceed as gurus- thought their intiation into Iskcon management secrets was the only way for Iskcon to survive, 2) who wanted ritiviks to suceed SP so they could start a rival group to Iskcon. Meanwhile while they both spend their precious time arguing back and forth, other issues get avoided and the original preaching missions endeavors becomes stunted. Out of the two there is more spontaneity in Iskcon, and the principle of guru however tainted, still exists, and they can read other books besides those of SP, on the other, in the ritvik, it is SP only and the individual spontaneity is more curbed. Both however are fanatics- SP has got everything right, moon landing hoax, literalisation of Bhagavatam, etc etc and they cant accept that even an acarya can have these kinds of mistakes, as part of the lila (and i'm not talking about the deluded self appointed types here- but even that is lila, as all is in my opinion- including mine and yours too). For example in Mahabharat there are examples of mistakes being made by direct associates of Krishna.
A kind of Prabhupada modernism and modernism with the whole IGM and Bhaktivinoda Thakura is needed in my opinion. We see the pattern anyway, how initially SP changed things according to time, place and circumstance, so we see that in regards to Iskcon GM principles only chanting on beads daily and following regulative principles seems to be common denominator, not to mention deity worship and missionary endeavor, there is besides this a principle of flexibility. SP changed 64 rounds to 16, allowed men and women side by side in ashrams, and other GM branches have different standards too. Of course flexibility is here set within tradition to, and that tradition does indeed have a tendency towards modernism and adapting to the circumstances anyway, traditionally! Both Ritvik and Iskcon lag behind in this need to adapt, and Ritvik more so than Iskcon.
Anyhow these are just a few of my thoughts on ritvik, which i was involved with and yet was not much of a fanatic, quite mellow in fact, and questioned it all, went along with it to some degree and saw my wrong motivations also and pulled out. But I have to say one thing, between Iskcon and Ritvik, the Ritviks have more study of SP going on in their temples, and more of a direct contact, they take him more seriously, whereas in Iskcon he seems more distant sat there on his vyasasan and limited to Bhagavat drips in morning classes. And in both Ritvik and Iskcon there is not much study of Bhaktivinoda and other previous figures, Goswami writings etc going on too (yet more so in Iskcon). There will exceptions to this too in both branches. Those busy using the terminologies of the anti-cult cult and its psychiatric inventions and impositions and terminologies and using these to 'decondition' themselves from bad experiences of 'brainwashing' in Iskcon, and see Iskcon history only in terms of zonal acarya-ritvik and abuse scandals, Im afraid i must say that I feel this approach misses the point too, for there are other factors in Iskcon history, a history which reads like other groups and movements which are associated somewhat with the Counterculture in their more seedier side.
Neither Ritvik or ISKCON has truly suceeded Iskcon in my opinion but each is closer in certain things to the original than the other and both have their fanatics and their more mellow devotees and also share things in common despite being clouded by all that unnecessary over focus on the zonal-ritvik-acarya double sided squabble that i could never be happy accepting either comfortably. Also some of the zonal's who should have been ritviks or ritviks who became zonals were in the dark and had the position foisted onto them anyhow. It wasnt some united cabal associated with a paedophile ring as alledged by Puranjan's ritvik branch, as attested by Bhagavan Maharajas grasping a paedophile teacher by the throat when he learnt about him abusing kids, and was the big reason he took off with the money and ran. So things are not so cut and dry as the Padaesque Puranjana view makes out within certain ritvik's minds. There are many shades of grey and the either-or for Ritvik and ISKCON should not steal the limelight and other issues are more needed to be addressed in my opinion, not leaving these out either. This is how i see things now, although i could be wrong.
QUOTE (Jan Damcarfor @ Jul 15 2010, 09:54 AM)
Those busy using the terminologies of the anti-cult cult and its psychiatric inventions and impositions and terminologies and using these to 'decondition' themselves from bad experiences of 'brainwashing' in Iskcon, and see Iskcon history only in terms of zonal acarya-ritvik and abuse scandals, Im afraid i must say that I feel this approach misses the point too...
Point well taken.
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