I often hear those who believe in a god-being who controls the universe claim that he will answer the prayers of his worshipers. Many claim the healing power of prayer is stronger than any force.
Click to view attachment
After all the millions and millions of prayers for world peace, where is world peace?
How many have prayed for the discovery of the cure for cancer?
Full Version: The Power of Prayer
QUOTE (Homer @ Jul 17 2007, 08:21 PM)
I often hear those who believe in a god-being who controls the universe claim that he will answer the prayers of his worshipers. Many claim the healing power of prayer is stronger than any force.
Click to view attachment
After all the millions and millions of prayers for world peace, where is world peace?
How many have prayed for the discovery of the cure for cancer?
Click to view attachment
After all the millions and millions of prayers for world peace, where is world peace?
How many have prayed for the discovery of the cure for cancer?
If they pray for impossible things then they expect God to do tricks for them. Perform for them a miracle. Be their personal servant. Reasonable, conceivable prayers of the pious are mostly answered unless it is not good for our spiritual progress, our devotion to Him. They will ultimately all ask (ignorant of their illuminating loving relationship with Him) for a permanent situation in a temporary place, without God as the all-attractive center, all the consciousness of Hiranyakasipu, impossible requests. So when they don’t get the impossible things they want do they lose faith, get angry, stop praying?
QUOTE (dayalu @ Jul 18 2007, 09:37 AM)
If they pray for impossible things
Then god's power is limited?
If so, then what is the meaning of god?
What you are saying is; you can pray for what god already wants you to have. Where is the free will?
God has endowed all souls with free will. He certainly does answer prayers, in fact He answers ALL prayers (though sometimes His answer is "No", or He gives us something else, something different from what we ask for or expect, but His answer is always to our highest spiritual benefit). In answering prayers He will not violate our free will or the free will of others. So if we pray for something as broad as world peace, while it is theoretically attainable, it won't happen so long as the will of others is against it. God wants peace, but the groups who comprise the governments of the world want war and violence, as do many citizens. They are acting on their free will, and because we are sentient, rational creatures, God respects that.
There is another factor in this. It's a theological/existential fact that personal and collective sins lead to war. They generate war. This was indicated by the Virgin Mary Herself (yes, it's true) in Her apparitions in Fatima, Portugal in 1917. She appeared in a series of visions to three children with instructions for all of humanity on how to end the then-present war (WW I) and warnings of another war to come (WW II), and what turned out to be the spread of international communism (She referred to it as "the errors of Russia", because international communisms did not yet exist at that time). These latter could have been prevented, and God wanted them to be prevented. The answer, She said, was collective conversion and turning to God, penance, prayer and abandoning of sin. Sin, she explained, is a spiritual force which causes war (as well as all sorts of exterior social, personal, and political maladies). Yes, prayer can generate peace, but enough people must do it and it MUST be accompanied by enough people changing their lives, living for God, and following His instructions. The particular prayer She most recommended for world peace was the Rosary. She also exhorted people to practice devotion to Her, because She is very powerful, and the loving, compassionate Mother of all people. God listens to Her intercession and changes the course of world events. Her instructions were not sufficiently heeded, though, and all of the disasters she warned of came to pass. People exercised their free will, but wrongly. They still are: since that time people's personal sins have increased severely, and they justify them in all sorts of new ways (the most convenient being that there is no such thing as sin). And we see that war, and violence in all levels of society, have reached proportions never known before in history. But it's never too late to change the tide. Just as we each have the free will to violate God's natural and supernatural laws and destroy our souls and the world, we each have the free will to do the opposite.
The Fatima apparitions are discussed in Sadaputa's book, "Alien Identities". Though his interpretation of them differs from the Catholic one, he nevertheless considers them completely authentic, and very important. They answer a lot of questions about the time we're living in, including Homer's question.
There is another factor in this. It's a theological/existential fact that personal and collective sins lead to war. They generate war. This was indicated by the Virgin Mary Herself (yes, it's true) in Her apparitions in Fatima, Portugal in 1917. She appeared in a series of visions to three children with instructions for all of humanity on how to end the then-present war (WW I) and warnings of another war to come (WW II), and what turned out to be the spread of international communism (She referred to it as "the errors of Russia", because international communisms did not yet exist at that time). These latter could have been prevented, and God wanted them to be prevented. The answer, She said, was collective conversion and turning to God, penance, prayer and abandoning of sin. Sin, she explained, is a spiritual force which causes war (as well as all sorts of exterior social, personal, and political maladies). Yes, prayer can generate peace, but enough people must do it and it MUST be accompanied by enough people changing their lives, living for God, and following His instructions. The particular prayer She most recommended for world peace was the Rosary. She also exhorted people to practice devotion to Her, because She is very powerful, and the loving, compassionate Mother of all people. God listens to Her intercession and changes the course of world events. Her instructions were not sufficiently heeded, though, and all of the disasters she warned of came to pass. People exercised their free will, but wrongly. They still are: since that time people's personal sins have increased severely, and they justify them in all sorts of new ways (the most convenient being that there is no such thing as sin). And we see that war, and violence in all levels of society, have reached proportions never known before in history. But it's never too late to change the tide. Just as we each have the free will to violate God's natural and supernatural laws and destroy our souls and the world, we each have the free will to do the opposite.
The Fatima apparitions are discussed in Sadaputa's book, "Alien Identities". Though his interpretation of them differs from the Catholic one, he nevertheless considers them completely authentic, and very important. They answer a lot of questions about the time we're living in, including Homer's question.
QUOTE (Strange Pilgrim @ Jul 18 2007, 03:04 PM)
God has endowed all souls with free will. He certainly does answer prayers, in fact He answers ALL prayers (though sometimes His answer is "No", or He gives us something else, something different from what we ask for or expect, but His answer is always to our highest spiritual benefit). In answering prayers He will not violate our free will or the free will of others. So if we pray for something as broad as world peace, while it is theoretically attainable, it won't happen so long as the will of others is against it. God wants peace, but the groups who comprise the governments of the world want war and violence, as do many citizens. They are acting on their free will, and because we are sentient, rational creatures, God respects that.
There is another factor in this. It's a theological/existential fact that personal and collective sins lead to war. They generate war. This was indicated by the Virgin Mary Herself (yes, it's true) in Her apparitions in Fatima, Portugal in 1917. She appeared in a series of visions to three children with instructions for all of humanity on how to end the then-present war (WW I) and warnings of another war to come (WW II), and what turned out to be the spread of international communism (She referred to it as "the errors of Russia", because international communisms did not yet exist at that time). These latter could have been prevented, and God wanted them to be prevented. The answer, She said, was collective conversion and turning to God, penance, prayer and abandoning of sin. Sin, she explained, is a spiritual force which causes war (as well as all sorts of exterior social, personal, and political maladies). Yes, prayer can generate peace, but enough people must do it and it MUST be accompanied by enough people changing their lives, living for God, and following His instructions. The particular prayer She most recommended for world peace was the Rosary. She also exhorted people to practice devotion to Her, because She is very powerful, and the loving, compassionate Mother of all people. God listens to Her intercession and changes the course of world events. Her instructions were not sufficiently heeded, though, and all of the disasters she warned of came to pass. People exercised their free will, but wrongly. They still are: since that time people's personal sins have increased severely, and they justify them in all sorts of new ways (the most convenient being that there is no such thing as sin). And we see that war, and violence in all levels of society, have reached proportions never known before in history. But it's never too late to change the tide. Just as we each have the free will to violate God's natural and supernatural laws and destroy our souls and the world, we each have the free will to do the opposite.
The Fatima apparitions are discussed in Sadaputa's book, "Alien Identities". Though his interpretation of them differs from the Catholic one, he nevertheless considers them completely authentic, and very important. They answer a lot of questions about the time we're living in, including Homer's question.
There is another factor in this. It's a theological/existential fact that personal and collective sins lead to war. They generate war. This was indicated by the Virgin Mary Herself (yes, it's true) in Her apparitions in Fatima, Portugal in 1917. She appeared in a series of visions to three children with instructions for all of humanity on how to end the then-present war (WW I) and warnings of another war to come (WW II), and what turned out to be the spread of international communism (She referred to it as "the errors of Russia", because international communisms did not yet exist at that time). These latter could have been prevented, and God wanted them to be prevented. The answer, She said, was collective conversion and turning to God, penance, prayer and abandoning of sin. Sin, she explained, is a spiritual force which causes war (as well as all sorts of exterior social, personal, and political maladies). Yes, prayer can generate peace, but enough people must do it and it MUST be accompanied by enough people changing their lives, living for God, and following His instructions. The particular prayer She most recommended for world peace was the Rosary. She also exhorted people to practice devotion to Her, because She is very powerful, and the loving, compassionate Mother of all people. God listens to Her intercession and changes the course of world events. Her instructions were not sufficiently heeded, though, and all of the disasters she warned of came to pass. People exercised their free will, but wrongly. They still are: since that time people's personal sins have increased severely, and they justify them in all sorts of new ways (the most convenient being that there is no such thing as sin). And we see that war, and violence in all levels of society, have reached proportions never known before in history. But it's never too late to change the tide. Just as we each have the free will to violate God's natural and supernatural laws and destroy our souls and the world, we each have the free will to do the opposite.
The Fatima apparitions are discussed in Sadaputa's book, "Alien Identities". Though his interpretation of them differs from the Catholic one, he nevertheless considers them completely authentic, and very important. They answer a lot of questions about the time we're living in, including Homer's question.
So, the answer to the world's peace problems is 'collective conversion' to Catholicism - is this the contention?
he is we is she is me and you altogether god , and yes we answer prayers
QUOTE (Strange Pilgrim @ Jul 18 2007, 11:04 PM)
God has endowed all souls with free will. He certainly does answer prayers, in fact He answers ALL prayers (though sometimes His answer is "No"
Cute, overdone, but cute. How would you know this? What is free-will without perfect intelligence? My two-year old has free will to walk in the middle of the road?
, or He gives us something else, something different from what we ask for or expect, but His answer is always to our highest spiritual benefit).
Ditto above. He answers prayer by giving us gluroos like Bhavananda & Co?
In answering prayers He will not violate our free will or the free will of others. So if we pray for something as broad as world peace, while it is theoretically attainable, it won't happen so long as the will of others is against it.
Someone who wants war either wishes to exploit or to dominate. Why would god answer their their supplications?
I get it. If I pray for my basketball team to win, but the opposition has three people praying for their team to win then god, being democratic and all, will let their team win?
God wants peace, but the groups who comprise the governments of the world want war and violence, as do many citizens. They are acting on their free will, and because we are sentient, rational creatures, God respects that.
So, you know what god respects and what he thinks is BS? How?
There is another factor in this. It's a theological/existential fact that personal and collective sins lead to war. They generate war. This was indicated by the Virgin Mary Herself (yes, it's true) in Her apparitions in Fatima, Portugal in 1917. She appeared in a series of visions to three children with instructions for all of humanity on how to end the then-present war (WW I) and warnings of another war to come (WW II), and what turned out to be the spread of international communism (She referred to it as "the errors of Russia", because international communisms did not yet exist at that time). These latter could have been prevented, and God wanted them to be prevented. The answer, She said, was collective conversion and turning to God, penance, prayer and abandoning of sin. Sin, she explained, is a spiritual force which causes war (as well as all sorts of exterior social, personal, and political maladies). Yes, prayer can generate peace, but enough people must do it and it MUST be accompanied by enough people changing their lives, living for God, and following His instructions. The particular prayer She most recommended for world peace was the Rosary. She also exhorted people to practice devotion to Her, because She is very powerful, and the loving, compassionate Mother of all people. God listens to Her intercession and changes the course of world events. Her instructions were not sufficiently heeded, though, and all of the disasters she warned of came to pass. People exercised their free will, but wrongly. They still are: since that time people's personal sins have increased severely, and they justify them in all sorts of new ways (the most convenient being that there is no such thing as sin). And we see that war, and violence in all levels of society, have reached proportions never known before in history.
Virgin Mary, eh? So, how do you reconcile the idea of Original Sin with the Indian idea of the intrinsic purity of the soul?
Don't you read the Really Olde Books? So-called Vedic ones? Silly assertion.
But it's never too late to change the tide. Just as we each have the free will to violate God's natural and supernatural laws and destroy our souls and the world, we each have the free will to do the opposite.
Destroy our souls? Of course, if only everyone was on the same page then god could focus more - a page from the Bhagavatam, right?
The Fatima apparitions are discussed in Sadaputa's book, "Alien Identities". Though his interpretation of them differs from the Catholic one, he nevertheless considers them completely authentic, and very important. They answer a lot of questions about the time we're living in, including Homer's question.
If the BlissGone intelligentsia (contradiction of terms) is able to fathom the deeper mysteries why can't they figure out how to soothe the disaffected gurukulis?
Cute, overdone, but cute. How would you know this? What is free-will without perfect intelligence? My two-year old has free will to walk in the middle of the road?
, or He gives us something else, something different from what we ask for or expect, but His answer is always to our highest spiritual benefit).
Ditto above. He answers prayer by giving us gluroos like Bhavananda & Co?
In answering prayers He will not violate our free will or the free will of others. So if we pray for something as broad as world peace, while it is theoretically attainable, it won't happen so long as the will of others is against it.
Someone who wants war either wishes to exploit or to dominate. Why would god answer their their supplications?
I get it. If I pray for my basketball team to win, but the opposition has three people praying for their team to win then god, being democratic and all, will let their team win?
God wants peace, but the groups who comprise the governments of the world want war and violence, as do many citizens. They are acting on their free will, and because we are sentient, rational creatures, God respects that.
So, you know what god respects and what he thinks is BS? How?
There is another factor in this. It's a theological/existential fact that personal and collective sins lead to war. They generate war. This was indicated by the Virgin Mary Herself (yes, it's true) in Her apparitions in Fatima, Portugal in 1917. She appeared in a series of visions to three children with instructions for all of humanity on how to end the then-present war (WW I) and warnings of another war to come (WW II), and what turned out to be the spread of international communism (She referred to it as "the errors of Russia", because international communisms did not yet exist at that time). These latter could have been prevented, and God wanted them to be prevented. The answer, She said, was collective conversion and turning to God, penance, prayer and abandoning of sin. Sin, she explained, is a spiritual force which causes war (as well as all sorts of exterior social, personal, and political maladies). Yes, prayer can generate peace, but enough people must do it and it MUST be accompanied by enough people changing their lives, living for God, and following His instructions. The particular prayer She most recommended for world peace was the Rosary. She also exhorted people to practice devotion to Her, because She is very powerful, and the loving, compassionate Mother of all people. God listens to Her intercession and changes the course of world events. Her instructions were not sufficiently heeded, though, and all of the disasters she warned of came to pass. People exercised their free will, but wrongly. They still are: since that time people's personal sins have increased severely, and they justify them in all sorts of new ways (the most convenient being that there is no such thing as sin). And we see that war, and violence in all levels of society, have reached proportions never known before in history.
Virgin Mary, eh? So, how do you reconcile the idea of Original Sin with the Indian idea of the intrinsic purity of the soul?
Don't you read the Really Olde Books? So-called Vedic ones? Silly assertion.
But it's never too late to change the tide. Just as we each have the free will to violate God's natural and supernatural laws and destroy our souls and the world, we each have the free will to do the opposite.
Destroy our souls? Of course, if only everyone was on the same page then god could focus more - a page from the Bhagavatam, right?
The Fatima apparitions are discussed in Sadaputa's book, "Alien Identities". Though his interpretation of them differs from the Catholic one, he nevertheless considers them completely authentic, and very important. They answer a lot of questions about the time we're living in, including Homer's question.
If the BlissGone intelligentsia (contradiction of terms) is able to fathom the deeper mysteries why can't they figure out how to soothe the disaffected gurukulis?
i was of the opinion christianity abandoned the idea of prayer. at least Christ did. Of course it's ironically superior to think of prayer as asking. i must be lucky, i've never had an unanswered prayer, but i don't go about spitting them out.
QUOTE (Subhash @ Jul 19 2007, 01:02 AM)
i was of the opinion christianity abandoned the idea of prayer. at least Christ did. Of course it's ironically superior to think of prayer as asking. i must be lucky, i've never had an unanswered prayer, but i don't go about spitting them out.
Are you referring to the exclamation on the cross about why have you abandoned me? instead of get me outta this?
Jesus died because Eve ate the fruit. He died for you! You just don't have enough guilt to see properly, my friend.
Rather than quote from huge chunks of text i am starting afresh - but I am sure you can see the link. Free will is a tricky subject.
My understanding - which I am sure differs from the western version which seems to be that you can do anything you like is roughly as follows:
We each have our individual dharma. We have the freedom to act within our dharma, not against it or outside it, thus free will is very restricted. Our dharma is fixed at rebirth and to be able to act outside our dharma would be inconsistent with the laws of karma. We are reborn to work out karma acquired in previous lifetimes. this is to my mind the essence of our dharma.
I recognise that in this interpretation there is a less freedom of action and a larger element of predestination or inevitable fate but in my opinion this is the truth.
My reasoning behind this view is that from my near death experience I am personally convinced we live each life with a set of lessons and experiences pre-ordained. We come here to each life with, if you like, some things to learn, when we have learned them, then we can move on. This is our Dharma.
My understanding - which I am sure differs from the western version which seems to be that you can do anything you like is roughly as follows:
We each have our individual dharma. We have the freedom to act within our dharma, not against it or outside it, thus free will is very restricted. Our dharma is fixed at rebirth and to be able to act outside our dharma would be inconsistent with the laws of karma. We are reborn to work out karma acquired in previous lifetimes. this is to my mind the essence of our dharma.
I recognise that in this interpretation there is a less freedom of action and a larger element of predestination or inevitable fate but in my opinion this is the truth.
My reasoning behind this view is that from my near death experience I am personally convinced we live each life with a set of lessons and experiences pre-ordained. We come here to each life with, if you like, some things to learn, when we have learned them, then we can move on. This is our Dharma.
QUOTE (rhapsodieff @ Jul 19 2007, 02:10 AM)
We each have our individual dharma. We have the freedom to act within our dharma, not against it or outside it, thus free will is very restricted. Our dharma is fixed at rebirth and to be able to act outside our dharma would be inconsistent with the laws of karma. We are reborn to work out karma acquired in previous lifetimes. this is to my mind the essence of our dharma.
Interesting.
But what good are the lessons when we cannot remember previous lives?
QUOTE (Homer @ Jul 18 2007, 07:14 PM)
QUOTE (rhapsodieff @ Jul 19 2007, 02:10 AM)
We each have our individual dharma. We have the freedom to act within our dharma, not against it or outside it, thus free will is very restricted. Our dharma is fixed at rebirth and to be able to act outside our dharma would be inconsistent with the laws of karma. We are reborn to work out karma acquired in previous lifetimes. this is to my mind the essence of our dharma.
Interesting.
But what good are the lessons when we cannot remember previous lives?
God is a sadist?
QUOTE (rhapsodieff @ Jul 19 2007, 02:19 AM)
QUOTE (Homer @ Jul 18 2007, 07:14 PM)
QUOTE (rhapsodieff @ Jul 19 2007, 02:10 AM)
We each have our individual dharma. We have the freedom to act within our dharma, not against it or outside it, thus free will is very restricted. Our dharma is fixed at rebirth and to be able to act outside our dharma would be inconsistent with the laws of karma. We are reborn to work out karma acquired in previous lifetimes. this is to my mind the essence of our dharma.
Interesting.
But what good are the lessons when we cannot remember previous lives?
God is a sadist?
If so, then most of us are a perfect match.
QUOTE (Homer @ Jul 18 2007, 07:21 PM)
QUOTE (rhapsodieff @ Jul 19 2007, 02:19 AM)
QUOTE (Homer @ Jul 18 2007, 07:14 PM)
QUOTE (rhapsodieff @ Jul 19 2007, 02:10 AM)
We each have our individual dharma. We have the freedom to act within our dharma, not against it or outside it, thus free will is very restricted. Our dharma is fixed at rebirth and to be able to act outside our dharma would be inconsistent with the laws of karma. We are reborn to work out karma acquired in previous lifetimes. this is to my mind the essence of our dharma.
Interesting.
But what good are the lessons when we cannot remember previous lives?
God is a sadist?
If so, then most of us are a perfect match.
Even now I do have some recall of previous lives...but from the near death experience I know what I came back to learn - and what I learned before... I have been on this planet a long long time.....
QUOTE (Homer @ Jul 18 2007, 02:44 AM)
Then god's power is limited?
I am willing to support God's inomnipotence. It doesn't endangers Their existence, and it provides the most pleasant answer for the Epicurean question.
QUOTE (Homer @ Jul 18 2007, 02:44 AM)
If so, then what is the meaning of god?
In this sense: God = a person with unusually superb capabilities of some kind, as a basis of a philosophy.
QUOTE (Homer @ Jul 18 2007, 02:44 AM)
What you are saying is; you can pray for what god already wants you to have. Where is the free will?
You can pray for whatever you desire, but you get only what God wants you to have. (Or not even that.
)
If God has granted us free will (or at least not taken it away) and we use that free will to make war, how then can God grant a prayer for peace? He would have to remove our free will to do so.
Many don't pray for peace so much as for their own side to "win" the war. Those prayers must cancel each other out.
I personally don't think it is in God's job description to fill our orders like some waitress at a diner. I do think God responds when we pray earnestly to receive His/Her grace or a sense of union, or to be shown the right way for us to connect. I think He/She is with us when we suffer and if we turn towards this source of comfort we can feel it.
Homer, for awhile you seemed to separate organized religion from the issue of whether you felt connected with God, who you seemed to find in nature and music, to name two mediums. Now you sound bitter even about God, and I find myself wondering what brought about this change in you. Here you are with one delightful child and another on the way, and it would seem to be a time for joy rather than cynicism. It makes me concerned for you.
Many don't pray for peace so much as for their own side to "win" the war. Those prayers must cancel each other out.
I personally don't think it is in God's job description to fill our orders like some waitress at a diner. I do think God responds when we pray earnestly to receive His/Her grace or a sense of union, or to be shown the right way for us to connect. I think He/She is with us when we suffer and if we turn towards this source of comfort we can feel it.
Homer, for awhile you seemed to separate organized religion from the issue of whether you felt connected with God, who you seemed to find in nature and music, to name two mediums. Now you sound bitter even about God, and I find myself wondering what brought about this change in you. Here you are with one delightful child and another on the way, and it would seem to be a time for joy rather than cynicism. It makes me concerned for you.
QUOTE (Homer @ Jul 17 2007, 09:21 PM)
I often hear those who believe in a god-being who controls the universe claim that he will answer the prayers of his worshipers. Many claim the healing power of prayer is stronger than any force.
After all the millions and millions of prayers for world peace, where is world peace?
How many have prayed for the discovery of the cure for cancer?
After all the millions and millions of prayers for world peace, where is world peace?
How many have prayed for the discovery of the cure for cancer?
There is no world peace but peace, or at least an attempt at it, does break out every so often in certain parts of the world, like Northern Ireland and the Balkans. On a more personal level, hostile life and death situations are calmed and negated by peaceful thought and actions continuously.
There is no cure for cancer, yet people with diagnosed terminal cancer are miraculously cured with no medical explanations all the time.
One may have a belief that such things are random, unexplainable and pure luck, but it does delve into the realm of possibilities that something more does exist than material scientific cause and effect in the what you see is what you get world.
Homer, you approach your dislike for religion, the belief in God and the practice of prayer as if on a mission. It is almost like you have gained a new understanding of the one supreme TRUTH that is opposite your experience as a Vaisnava or Christian, and you are not shy in letting everyone that disagrees or shows an opposing position that they are wrong. At least that is how it seems to be coming across.
I think your comments are valid and good for debate, but I am surprised by the vitriol of your belief in Non-God, Non-Prayer and Non Mysticism, it’s almost like you have become a fundamentalist for scientific humanistic reasoning. It’s not to say that what you are saying is wrong or should not be said or brought up, it’s the way it’s being presented, as some new absolute truth that we should all believe or else we are deluded, backwards and illusioned.
Correct me if my observations are wrong, oh brother down under but always musically on top.
I am not angry or full of hatered towards mystical experiences nor am I on a mission to eliminate god from our vocabulary.
I have been involved in discussions in another forum. Learning what religion means to the average person, and the hatred, the self-loathing, the self-righteousness, and the condemnation of outsiders has reformed my liberal views concern religionists.
Frankly, I have been forced to the conclusion that the only good that has come from religion, any religion, is a comforting effect upon the believer that they are special in god's eyes and that their destiny is everlasting life while the poor souls who do not share their particular brand of god is destined to rot in hell.
Ecumenical gestures, from what I have seen, is window dressing. Behind the scenes these types go back to believing the superiority of their little god that they walk around the block on a very short leash.
Expressing these sentiments may appear as missionary due to the overwhelming obsequiousness of such religionists and their blanket exclusiveness. Countering superstition has always brought out the noose or the burning stake.
If people were to be grateful and thankful for what is manifest here and now, then there would be abundant love and compassion rather than the world teetering on the brink of war and the blatant disregard for our planet and it's inhabitants.
Just don't hide behind god to rationalize one's own insecurity.
I have been involved in discussions in another forum. Learning what religion means to the average person, and the hatred, the self-loathing, the self-righteousness, and the condemnation of outsiders has reformed my liberal views concern religionists.
Frankly, I have been forced to the conclusion that the only good that has come from religion, any religion, is a comforting effect upon the believer that they are special in god's eyes and that their destiny is everlasting life while the poor souls who do not share their particular brand of god is destined to rot in hell.
Ecumenical gestures, from what I have seen, is window dressing. Behind the scenes these types go back to believing the superiority of their little god that they walk around the block on a very short leash.
Expressing these sentiments may appear as missionary due to the overwhelming obsequiousness of such religionists and their blanket exclusiveness. Countering superstition has always brought out the noose or the burning stake.
If people were to be grateful and thankful for what is manifest here and now, then there would be abundant love and compassion rather than the world teetering on the brink of war and the blatant disregard for our planet and it's inhabitants.
Just don't hide behind god to rationalize one's own insecurity.
QUOTE (angrezi @ Jul 18 2007, 12:39 PM)
he is we is she is me and you altogether god , and yes we answer prayers
al is god
QUOTE (Tapati @ Jul 19 2007, 03:51 AM)
Homer, for awhile you seemed to separate organized religion from the issue of whether you felt connected with God, who you seemed to find in nature and music, to name two mediums. Now you sound bitter even about God, and I find myself wondering what brought about this change in you. Here you are with one delightful child and another on the way, and it would seem to be a time for joy rather than cynicism. It makes me concerned for you.
Thank you for your concern.
I am very much in love with my delightful daughter. She and I share our hugs and laughs with great joy.
I do not tell her about an Easter Bunny, Santa Claus or a vindictive god. I hope she will grow up without the need to seek out god for his absolution for her sins committed by mythological retards.
Or to feel inferior due to being born with a 32 oz brain.
Our new child is being born into a welcoming and loving family. Miracles do happen.
Cynicism is not the same as rejecting guilt as a means of transcendence.
QUOTE
Homer,Jul 18 2007, 06:16 PM
I am not angry or full of hatered towards mystical experiences nor am I on a mission to eliminate god from our vocabulary.
I have been involved in discussions in another forum. Learning what religion means to the average person, and the hatred, the self-loathing, the self-righteousness, and the condemnation of outsiders has reformed my liberal views concern religionists.
I am not angry or full of hatered towards mystical experiences nor am I on a mission to eliminate god from our vocabulary.
I have been involved in discussions in another forum. Learning what religion means to the average person, and the hatred, the self-loathing, the self-righteousness, and the condemnation of outsiders has reformed my liberal views concern religionists.
You bring up some great points on the worst that exists in the true believer in any religion, or of any worldview philosophy. I also find many of these intolerant qualities you speak of to exist in people of no particular religion who use politics as a substitute to gain power and lord it over their subjects. It also exists economically, with the true believers in Capitalism, who sees profit as the only motive for existence, hence exploitation of others for self-interest in profit of the few over the welfare of all others.
If indeed you hang out at forums where one belief system rules, be it Christian, Muslim or Hindu, you will find an air of supremacy of that one faith over another, while most members will be exposing the party line. I’ve visited such sites and have to leave after only reading a few postings from the righteous and finger pointers. I also am in the world where I meet people of different faiths or no faith, and through personal interaction with them, I know these people to be more tolerant and inclusive, willing to share ideas and not judge others. I have found a world that has both the true messianic fundamentalist believers and those who do not wear their faith on their sleeve, put practice it privately while remaining warm and cordial to those whom they meet.
QUOTE
Frankly, I have been forced to the conclusion that the only good that has come from religion, any religion, is a comforting effect upon the believer that they are special in god's eyes and that their destiny is everlasting life while the poor souls who do not share their particular brand of god is destined to rot in hell.
I just don’t see why we have to be forced to any conclusions philosophically, it seems that whatever we believe is our choice, why let any band of believers in any religion force to change your liberal views concerning religionist? Your description of a religionist does exist and those who are that way are people I stay far away from, but does it really encompass every person who believes in a religion or God? I have problems with broad generalizations such as this, it seems to put everyone who is a theist into one boat and sails them off toward the waterfall of negativity
QUOTE
Ecumenical gestures, from what I have seen, is window dressing. Behind the scenes these types go back to believing the superiority of their little god that they walk around the block on a very short leash.
I too have seen this fake ecumenical gesture that you speak of and dislike such things passionately also. I have also meet people of faith who truly wanted to learn and share though, so how can I, through my experience. want to dump them all into the same category as fakers?
QUOTE
Expressing these sentiments may appear as missionary due to the overwhelming obsequiousness of such religionists and their blanket exclusiveness. Countering superstition has always brought out the noose or the burning stake.
If people were to be grateful and thankful for what is manifest here and now, then there would be abundant love and compassion rather than the world teetering on the brink of war and the blatant disregard for our planet and it's inhabitants.
Just don't hide behind god to rationalize one's own insecurity.
If people were to be grateful and thankful for what is manifest here and now, then there would be abundant love and compassion rather than the world teetering on the brink of war and the blatant disregard for our planet and it's inhabitants.
Just don't hide behind god to rationalize one's own insecurity.
Fundamentalism has reared its ugly head more so in the past 10 years, a reaction to a fast moving world that seems to be getting smaller and smaller in terms of culture. People are afraid of losing their history and heritage to this one world culture, so they go back to the roots of their faith or some old hackneyed political order to gain control. The Islamic fundamentalist make their point with terrorism, the Christians, Jewish and Hindu fundamentalist become reactionaries, fighting fire with fire…while certain elites in the political and economic power structure see ways to benefit from all this…meanwhile, the middle class and working class populations everywhere struggle to survive and many go back to fundamentalism out of fear to face the unexpected mysteries of a world gone out of control.
We need to find another way to fight this without getting too cynical and using the same tactics they do, by condemning and labeling the opposition through generalizations. I like your idea of being grateful and thankful for what manifest here and now, building an abundance of love and compassion, but I think this can happen irregardless if one is theistic or non-theistic, religious or non-religious, atheistic, agnostic, new age or old age and anything in between or on the margins that I missed. The people of this planet are too diverse and different to expect some unified one philosophy or faith to fit all needs. We have to start finding ways of working together or else it just will not work.
There are fundamentalist Christians who are taking environmental problems seriously, same with Muslims, Hindus and Jews. Slowly we have to find ways to reach out and teach the important aspects of resolving conflict and taking care of one another despite our differences.
As a friend, I find your thoughts valuable, but I was worried that you were becoming a true believer of denouncing all religion and spirituality, and that was something I would just hate to see happen, for you are too valuable of a voice of reason to lose.
The site I visit is a musician forum populated by, I think 70 000 members.
Barring this site, I can not stomach religious forums.
My latest journey into the shadowy realm of questioning belief systems was piqued by the priest friend I have. She wanted to baptize Grace until she asked her Bishop and he forbade it as we are not part of her congregation. The same with our marriage. She was forbidden.
I know she was surprised by the unyielding fundamentalism in the Anglican Church, which she believed embraced a liberal cannon because of the inclusion of gays into the ministry [at least here in Australia, I don't think there would be much of a priesthood unless they did admit gays - the battle rages elsewhere] and her submission to the iron grip of the hierarchy has reduced her to a shriveled version of the intelligent and happy person I knew before she donned her robes. Salary? New car? Prestige? Free house?
I am not very skilled at pretending to be nice in the name of civility. It reminds me too much of Vaisnava etiquette.
If you mods find I am scaring away the ones' who need debriefing I am ready to be expelled.
Barring this site, I can not stomach religious forums.
My latest journey into the shadowy realm of questioning belief systems was piqued by the priest friend I have. She wanted to baptize Grace until she asked her Bishop and he forbade it as we are not part of her congregation. The same with our marriage. She was forbidden.
I know she was surprised by the unyielding fundamentalism in the Anglican Church, which she believed embraced a liberal cannon because of the inclusion of gays into the ministry [at least here in Australia, I don't think there would be much of a priesthood unless they did admit gays - the battle rages elsewhere] and her submission to the iron grip of the hierarchy has reduced her to a shriveled version of the intelligent and happy person I knew before she donned her robes. Salary? New car? Prestige? Free house?
I am not very skilled at pretending to be nice in the name of civility. It reminds me too much of Vaisnava etiquette.
If you mods find I am scaring away the ones' who need debriefing I am ready to be expelled.
QUOTE (Homer @ Jul 18 2007, 09:26 PM)
I am not very skilled at pretending to be nice in the name of civility. It reminds me too much of Vaisnava etiquette.
If you mods find I am scaring away the ones' who need debriefing I am ready to be expelled.
If you mods find I am scaring away the ones' who need debriefing I am ready to be expelled.
I don’t think you are scaring people away…as far as I can tell, but more importantly, I don’t think there are any grounds for expulsion. Perhaps I am just trying to get some idea as to why you have been posting in the way you have recently, and in the end, just concerned, trying to see if all is OK down under…that’s all from this end.
I was just noticing that you were imbibing some of the same word tactics that true believers use in going after the unbeliever…only these thought tools were being used by a nonbeliever towards the believers in general…which all comes down to concern from an online friend to a friend, not as a mod or some type of authority figure.
Sorry to hear about your friend the priest, it does seem that once you sign up to represent an institution, it can easily come back to limit ones expression and being true to ones self.
Expel gas, not members…if at all possible!
QUOTE (Homer @ Jul 18 2007, 06:26 PM)
The site I visit is a musician forum populated by, I think 70 000 members.
Barring this site, I can not stomach religious forums.
My latest journey into the shadowy realm of questioning belief systems was piqued by the priest friend I have. She wanted to baptize Grace until she asked her Bishop and he forbade it as we are not part of her congregation. The same with our marriage. She was forbidden.
I know she was surprised by the unyielding fundamentalism in the Anglican Church, which she believed embraced a liberal cannon because of the inclusion of gays into the ministry [at least here in Australia, I don't think there would be much of a priesthood unless they did admit gays - the battle rages elsewhere] and her submission to the iron grip of the hierarchy has reduced her to a shriveled version of the intelligent and happy person I knew before she donned her robes. Salary? New car? Prestige? Free house?
I am not very skilled at pretending to be nice in the name of civility. It reminds me too much of Vaisnava etiquette.
If you mods find I am scaring away the ones' who need debriefing I am ready to be expelled.
Barring this site, I can not stomach religious forums.
My latest journey into the shadowy realm of questioning belief systems was piqued by the priest friend I have. She wanted to baptize Grace until she asked her Bishop and he forbade it as we are not part of her congregation. The same with our marriage. She was forbidden.
I know she was surprised by the unyielding fundamentalism in the Anglican Church, which she believed embraced a liberal cannon because of the inclusion of gays into the ministry [at least here in Australia, I don't think there would be much of a priesthood unless they did admit gays - the battle rages elsewhere] and her submission to the iron grip of the hierarchy has reduced her to a shriveled version of the intelligent and happy person I knew before she donned her robes. Salary? New car? Prestige? Free house?
I am not very skilled at pretending to be nice in the name of civility. It reminds me too much of Vaisnava etiquette.
If you mods find I am scaring away the ones' who need debriefing I am ready to be expelled.
Homer, I understand your reaction to the position of the Anglican Church and other such examples of narrow minded religious thought. Yet the task at this forum is to peacefully coexist with others who think differently, without making them feel like they are being attacked. Your relentless questioning often comes across as trying to batter down the structure of members' belief systems and the net effect is to suck the joy out of whatever they were trying to express about their beliefs. We don't ask members to buy into other members' belief systems--you are free and encouraged not to do so. But we do expect members not to beat each other over the head with their disbelief.
If I'm going to successfully crack down on any Vaishnava or other preaching, I have to be even handed and not allow anti-religion preaching. You are free and welcome to express your disbelief without interrogating believers in such a way that it looks like you are disrespecting them for believing.
I personally think our members who believe are not the kind of fanatic and dogmatic folks who are creating the problems with religion you often speak of. They are making choices for themselves while not demanding that we join them. Therefore I think they deserve the respect and civility we require here.
Homer, I'd love it if you can find a way to coexist with religionists here, and it's completely up to you whether or not you choose to do so.
Has nobody noticed that Jean Piaget left after having to listen to Homer's rantings about hairy balls and frozen assholes? As I am not a particularly friendly person either, I don't really care what Dawkins' little henchman writes, I just ignore those posts, but a more sensitive person could feel hurt by a DementoTroll™ on a forum.
QUOTE (babu @ Jul 18 2007, 05:38 PM)
QUOTE (angrezi @ Jul 18 2007, 12:39 PM)
he is we is she is me and you altogether god , and yes we answer prayers
al is god
I know Al and he has some problems like the rest of us but yes I agree
QUOTE (Softbrain @ Jul 19 2007, 05:15 AM)
Has nobody noticed that Jean Piaget left after having to listen to Homer's rantings about hairy balls and frozen assholes? As I am not a particularly friendly person either, I don't really care what Dawkins' little henchman writes, I just ignore those posts, but a more sensitive person could feel hurt by a DementoTroll™ on a forum.
yes, I'm tired of party lines and preacher/henchmen of all sorts. I have known several devotee fanatics who blooped and became fanatics in other areas
QUOTE (Softbrain @ Jul 19 2007, 10:15 AM)
Has nobody noticed that Jean Piaget left after having to listen to Homer's rantings about hairy balls and frozen assholes? As I am not a particularly friendly person either, I don't really care what Dawkins' little henchman writes, I just ignore those posts, but a more sensitive person could feel hurt by a DementoTroll™ on a forum.
Jean Piaget added a certain sparkle to the forum; it's a pity she withdrew...
I believe it's very important not to discourage younger members; I know JP personally. She will be 25 on Sunday.
QUOTE (Aran @ Jul 19 2007, 11:28 AM)
Jean Piaget added a certain sparkle to the forum; it's a pity she withdrew...
I believe it's very important not to discourage younger members; I know JP personally. She will be 25 on Sunday.
I believe it's very important not to discourage younger members; I know JP personally. She will be 25 on Sunday.
Having the viewpoints of the younger generation is important, plus it’s a learning experience for everybody involved. Tell her Happy Birthday from the crew at GR in case she does not come back here in time for a birthday greetings. Something tells me she will be eating a lot of ice cream, or something with the word ice in it!!!
QUOTE (angrezi @ Jul 19 2007, 10:51 AM)
QUOTE (babu @ Jul 18 2007, 05:38 PM)
QUOTE (angrezi @ Jul 18 2007, 12:39 PM)
he is we is she is me and you altogether god , and yes we answer prayers
al is god
I know Al and he has some problems like the rest of us but yes I agree
I wonder if those who have a very personal intimate relationship with Allah call him Al?
QUOTE (Kalisurfer @ Jul 19 2007, 05:34 PM)
QUOTE (angrezi @ Jul 19 2007, 10:51 AM)
QUOTE (babu @ Jul 18 2007, 05:38 PM)
QUOTE (angrezi @ Jul 18 2007, 12:39 PM)
he is we is she is me and you altogether god , and yes we answer prayers
al is god
I know Al and he has some problems like the rest of us but yes I agree
I wonder if those who have a very personal intimate relationship with Allah call him Al?
or Lala as in the teletubbies?
QUOTE (Aran @ Jul 19 2007, 08:28 AM)
QUOTE (Softbrain @ Jul 19 2007, 10:15 AM)
Has nobody noticed that Jean Piaget left after having to listen to Homer's rantings about hairy balls and frozen assholes? As I am not a particularly friendly person either, I don't really care what Dawkins' little henchman writes, I just ignore those posts, but a more sensitive person could feel hurt by a DementoTroll™ on a forum.
Jean Piaget added a certain sparkle to the forum; it's a pity she withdrew...
I believe it's very important not to discourage younger members; I know JP personally. She will be 25 on Sunday.
We certainly hope she will return! Please wish her a Happy Birthday from me.
QUOTE (Softbrain @ Jul 19 2007, 06:15 PM)
Has nobody noticed that Jean Piaget left after having to listen to Homer's rantings about hairy balls and frozen assholes? As I am not a particularly friendly person either, I don't really care what Dawkins' little henchman writes, I just ignore those posts, but a more sensitive person could feel hurt by a DementoTroll™ on a forum.
Dear soft
This is what I expect. Instead of countering my challenges you resort to personal attack.
Can you show me one post wherein I have attacked someone personally?
If you are satisfied believing that when you read a thing you have made a discovery, then you and I are worlds apart.
Thank god.
I was really hoping for some stimulating explanations of religion and belief and I now understand that most people are not looking for the truth, rather they are looking for comfort.
I have decided to leave you people to your forum.
Demento
Troll™ 
I like it!
QUOTE (Homer @ Jul 19 2007, 05:44 PM)
I have decided to leave you people to your forum.
Demento Troll™ I like it!
Demento
Troll™ I like it!Bye Homer, you are one heck of a preacher, i hope you do well in your religion.
QUOTE
Homer: I was really hoping for some stimulating explanations of religion and belief and I now understand that most people are not looking for the truth, rather they are looking for comfort.
Somehow I was not getting that this is what you were looking for. Rather, your many challenges to belief left the observer with the impression that you were hoping to stump the theists, to give them unanswerable questions, to ask them to prove the unprovable. As I have no interest in trying to convince anyone to believe what I believe, such questions seem pointless to me personally.
In any event, this is how it seemed to me and I was one of the friendliest members of your audience.
Personally, when I come here I am looking for comfort--the comfort of tolerant and supportive people all just wanting to do their own spiritual thing--or not--in the company of others with a shared past.
QUOTE (Tapati @ Jul 20 2007, 09:00 AM)
QUOTE
Homer: I was really hoping for some stimulating explanations of religion and belief and I now understand that most people are not looking for the truth, rather they are looking for comfort.
I have no interest in trying to convince anyone to believe what I believe, such questions seem pointless to me personally.
I, and I imagine most people on here, share your sentiments Tapati.
are gopidust and homer one?
QUOTE (angrezi @ Jul 20 2007, 06:29 PM)
are gopidust and homer one?
Maybe according to Babu.
Gopi still preached less.
OK, but what if the rumor is true that certain members prayed for Homer to leave the forum....hhmmmm...the only way to disprove the power of that prayer is for him to come back...perhaps this will be the true test on the power or validity of prayer? 
Ok, now that we've vented, please let it go and wish Homer well. He has made many valuable contributions here in the past, such as generously sharing his music, so even if you didn't find his recent posts to your liking please keep a broader picture in mind as you think of him. Here's a great opportunity to model the tolerance we wish from others.
Homer has given a lot to this forum, 2,737 total posts to this day ( 3.1 posts per day / 5.55% of total forum posts ). We have come to know his life story, the tragedies his family endured, his ISKCON past, his new daughter, his music, his humor and his challenging nature toward absolutism. He was co-owner of the GR peace prize of the month earlier this year, for coming to a peaceful resolution after a strong debate on faith with Dayalu.
An modern day American pioneer living down under in Australia, with views out of his home window that I would not mind having paintings of. An experimenter in the creation of music that takes on deep spiritual dimensions that betray the latest sense that he is anti mystical in any shape or form. The experimentation that’s apparent in his musical sound vibrations also come out in his search for authentic self outside any formal ism or institutional worldview. His questions can be sharp and his pursuance of the true realizations that people express as opposed to rote book recitation can seem harsh at times, but it is part of his process and I will miss seeing that penetrative will to find the essence of what is true.
The past month has been rough with the nature of debate and the implications that differences can create…especially on how it is presented and understood through the writing and reading of thoughts on the computer screen. I still think it is possible for Homer to be a member here, that there must be a way for us all to work out the kinks that surfaced recently…but I respect anyone’s decision to do what they must in life, even it that means leaving this forum.
I will miss Homer’s contribution here, for he is part of the GR family, and with that, I wish him and his family the best in all things, material, spiritual and everything in between or beyond!
Take Care Brother Homer!
An modern day American pioneer living down under in Australia, with views out of his home window that I would not mind having paintings of. An experimenter in the creation of music that takes on deep spiritual dimensions that betray the latest sense that he is anti mystical in any shape or form. The experimentation that’s apparent in his musical sound vibrations also come out in his search for authentic self outside any formal ism or institutional worldview. His questions can be sharp and his pursuance of the true realizations that people express as opposed to rote book recitation can seem harsh at times, but it is part of his process and I will miss seeing that penetrative will to find the essence of what is true.
The past month has been rough with the nature of debate and the implications that differences can create…especially on how it is presented and understood through the writing and reading of thoughts on the computer screen. I still think it is possible for Homer to be a member here, that there must be a way for us all to work out the kinks that surfaced recently…but I respect anyone’s decision to do what they must in life, even it that means leaving this forum.
I will miss Homer’s contribution here, for he is part of the GR family, and with that, I wish him and his family the best in all things, material, spiritual and everything in between or beyond!
Take Care Brother Homer!
I too always miss Homer when he is not here. I have known him pretty well now for years back to the Istagosthi days. I sent him a Bhagavad-gita, he sent back a Aussie note for 20, he is my brother and i always love him.
QUOTE (Homer @ Jul 19 2007, 05:44 PM)
I was really hoping for some stimulating explanations of religion and belief and I now understand that most people are not looking for the truth, rather they are looking for comfort.
I have decided to leave you people to your forum.
Demento Troll™ I like it!
I have decided to leave you people to your forum.
Demento
Troll™ I like it!Yeah, i'm lookin' for comfort
Here
QUOTE
U.S. Forest Service Turns to Cow Power
Last update: 10:20 a.m. EDT Oct. 20, 2008
RUTLAND, VT, Oct 20, 2008 (MARKET WIRE via COMTEX) -- The U.S. Forest Service, seeking to reduce its environmental impact, has enrolled its Rutland headquarters in CVPS Cow Power™ (CV:
Central Vermont Public Service Corporation
the nation's first manure-based farm-to-consumer energy program.
"We work hard to improve the environment every day, so it's natural that we'd want to lessen our environmental impact through Cow Power," said Forest Supervisor Meg Mitchell. "As we looked at ways to reduce the impact of our energy usage, enrolling in CVPS Cow Power™ had a great impact. We are supporting a working landscape, helping to improve water quality and removing methane from the atmosphere."
Last update: 10:20 a.m. EDT Oct. 20, 2008
RUTLAND, VT, Oct 20, 2008 (MARKET WIRE via COMTEX) -- The U.S. Forest Service, seeking to reduce its environmental impact, has enrolled its Rutland headquarters in CVPS Cow Power™ (CV:
Central Vermont Public Service Corporation
the nation's first manure-based farm-to-consumer energy program.
"We work hard to improve the environment every day, so it's natural that we'd want to lessen our environmental impact through Cow Power," said Forest Supervisor Meg Mitchell. "As we looked at ways to reduce the impact of our energy usage, enrolling in CVPS Cow Power™ had a great impact. We are supporting a working landscape, helping to improve water quality and removing methane from the atmosphere."
This is where I crossed the line. Keep praying, but watch this:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=eyU1c73xW3o
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=eyU1c73xW3o
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