Has anyone seen this? The documentary, about the Evangelical Christians in the MIdwest and how they indoctrinate their children to be Christ's Army, was aired by the Swedish TV yesterday. It left me and Ek shell-shocked. It was heart-breaking and positively scary.

It makes me understand better how guys like G.W. Bush can win election after election. Frankly, after seeing this documentray I don't see how any Democrat can ever win. There is up to 100 000 of these people out there voting.

Check Jesus Camp

War is Peace.

This is what comes from tribal religions.

Which one is not tribal?

dhyana, and your schools that teach godless atheism are ok?

Well...in the big scheme of things 100,000 isn't that many. I think I might have seen some of that documetary. I hate how they claim our forefathers were "christians" yet they neglect the fact that they were for seperation of church and state!!!

I saw the same program last autumn here in Finland. It was truly an experience to remember! First I thought it was some kind of an joke, a mocumentary, and laughed a bit, but realized very soon that they were the real deal. It was not funny anymore. Christ! Indeed.

Everything is indoctrination. You cannot raise children without indoctrinating them. But some doctrines are spacious and relatively accomodating (in terms of the individual choosing his / her own path in life), while others sell only one, narrow, path. Further, some indoctrination takes place in a hands off way, while other types apply high, concentrated pressure.

In several ways, the kind of indoctrination the children were subjected to in the movie was better than ISKCON. For example, involved parents, no excessive sadhana, and relatively self-empowering message where the children could say something was right "because I feel it."

Still it was scary. They were force-fed specific beliefs and an attitude of being at war with the world.

Yea there are a bunch of 'The Jesus Camp' clips on YouTube....

I watched a fair amount to know their a bunch of fanatical nuts, I feel sorry for those kids.

at least the male leaders at the jesus camp aren't wearing skirts... but if their garb was jesus correct, they might start

everyone knows that Ted Haggard, one of the big preachers featured in the movie, made headlines recently because his gay male protitute outted him, right? although Haggard has a wife and 5 children, and preaches anti-gay rhetoric to 10s of thousands of people, he was exposed as someone who has been visiting a male prostitute for years for sex, and doing meth as well.

i disagree that iskcon kids have it worse than these kids. for one, even if iskcons early kids were treated poorly, ultimately the quality of religion and culture they got was, in my opinion, much higher and more substancial than the evangelicals. i think an average iskcon kid has a tremendous cultural and spiritual foundation from which to grow, and i've seen many do so and really make quite a lot of their upbringing and become very dynamic and impressive people. notice how iskcon kids don't grow up on a quest to debunk global warming and end abortion rights?

what i think is really sad for iskcon kids is that, because the institution is so weak socially and financially (at least relative to big christian churches), many iskcon kids are left out in the cold when they want to build families and careers. but the spiritual content they grow up with is, in my opinion, way way better than the evangelicals, without contest.

i mostly felt bad for the evangelicals when i watched this movie because their religion is so lame. all the speaking in tongues and stuff was so goofy and silly, i was embarrassed for them. thank god prabhupada saved me from the bible is all i could really feel while watching this.

QUOTE (ann geee @ Mar 5 2007, 02:01 AM)

everyone knows that Ted Haggard, one of the big preachers featured in the movie, made headlines recently because his gay male protitute outted him, right?  although Haggard has a wife and 5 children, and preaches anti-gay rhetoric to 10s of thousands of people, he was exposed as someone who has been visiting a male prostitute for years for sex, and doing meth as well.

i disagree that iskcon kids have it worse than these kids.  for one, even if iskcons early kids were treated poorly, ultimately the quality of religion and culture they got was, in my opinion, much higher and more substancial than the evangelicals.  i think an average iskcon kid has a tremendous cultural and spiritual foundation from which to grow, and i've seen many do so and really make quite a lot of their upbringing and become very dynamic and impressive people.  notice how iskcon kids don't grow up on a quest to debunk global warming and end abortion rights? 

what i think is really sad for iskcon kids is that, because the institution is so weak socially and financially (at least relative to big christian churches), many iskcon kids are left out in the cold when they want to build families and careers.  but the spiritual content they grow up with is, in my opinion, way way better than the evangelicals, without contest.

i mostly felt bad for the evangelicals when i watched this movie because their religion is so lame.  all the speaking in tongues and stuff was so goofy and silly, i was embarrassed for them.  thank god prabhupada saved me from the bible is all i could really feel while watching this.

Sure, if these two were the only options available.

Awwwww. Human nature is amazing.




Good observation. While listing the Evangelical children's advantages over ISKCON kids, I neglected to mention the disadvantages. And the theology, together with some fine aspects of the rich Indian culture, is certainly one such. It amazes me to no end how unimportant, almost nonexistent, the teachings of Jesus are in the Evangelical religious functions. Maybe they study the Bible at home. But the gatherings are pure emotionality around their faith. (Admittedly I never attended such gatheirngs live, my impression comes from documentaries and movies. Have you seen The Apostle?)

I was brought up in a fairly hard-core Catholic environment. In primary school we learnt our catecism by rote and along with almost everyone I knew, went to a secondary school (single-sex) run by nuns; boys were educated by Christian Brothers. But for the most part we survived it (I know some, especially in previous generations had a darker experience - priests preaching against James Joyce and banning his books). The nuns I was taught by were relatively progressive and encouraged debate - one laughed when I suggested that if Jesus came back he might be black and/or gay in order to confound our expectations.
You are right in highlighting the emotional basis for these fundamentalists and I think the background of vaisnavism for many of our children had a far more varied and textured backdrop.
I knew two women who taught in a U.K. gurukula and the thing which I found most disturbing was that they were encouraged to see parents as a negative influence on their children (if they were considered to be lacking in following the principles) and to become the most important influence on the child.

Your idea reminded me of a song lyric that left a strong impression on me...

Poland is a strongly Catholic country with long tradition of devotion to Virgin Mary. There is a lot of ambivalence toward homosexuality and a lot of resistance to abortion. Some 15 years ago, some dedicated souls attempted to open a care center for people with HIV/AIDS in a small town outside Warsaw. They had the finances, but the plan fell because the authorities and citizens of that respectable town vehemently refused allowing "such ones" in.

Shortly afterwards, a cabaret somewhere in Poland put up a performance which included a ballad. (I have never heard it sung, but my mother sent me the lyrics.) The style is one of old, folk religious songs, very simple. Here come the first stanzas in free translation.

Once upon a time the Holy Mother wandered about in the world,
And she had two children with her.
One was healthy. The other had HIV.
But she didn't want to tell which was which.

So she came to a town and asked, Please let us in!
But the people wouldn't -- neither the child who was healthy,
Nor the one who had HIV.
Because she wouldn't tell which was which.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2c7_1173547096