For a start, he and several of his disciples met the moron who I blog about in my signature, and the Swami himself was reportedly cured of a back affliction by the moron. Oh and hey posed for photos as well. I am unsure if Sivananda thinks that the moron is God though, but it's quite possible that a disciple like Chidananda did so.

Hmmm, maybe I should go ahead and blog about this. If only I can find that picture....

Looks like Sarlo doesn't know any of this. Maybe I should inform Guruphiliac of the connection.

I find myself a bit sad over your obsession with Sai Baba. Reading the above rather reminds me of PADA's writings and the line of thought where Sridhar, Narayan and the rest are cheerleaders of child molesting bogus gurus and the rest. Don't let that consume you.

For a context, the meeting was in 1957 – over four decades before the first scandal gossips started doing their rounds. Even his first declarations of being "the embodiment of Shiva and Shakti" were to come only six years after that.



Is that supposed to be a scandal? I know it's easy to start labeling people on the basis of something one doesn't agree, but I don't think name-calling is very edifying, even if quoted in the words of a respected figure. If people are recommended to keep diaries on their success and failure in celibacy as a means for working towards the better, what possibly is the problem in that?

For reference, the source. The worst one seems to find of him is that someone once caught him eating pickles.

It doesn't really make much of a difference to me who Sivanananda was or wasn't, but I find it sad to see that people, like Agehananda above, or some anti-guru advocates, try to make others look bad merely because of practices they find absurd.

I am myself also sad over my obsession with the fellow but, as you will know, my involvement in that is deeper than that what I make obvious. I consider my blog, while reporting news, views and innovative research, to be a form of self-therapy. I have tried walking away from it at least twice and plunging myself into the deep ocean of you-know-Who, but I have found that I simply cannot move on unless that chapter of my life is completely closed. It is sad and I long for it to be over, but I can do nothing about it unless it is itself over. The recent political developments are very worrying, not to mention the legal developments. I'm very surprised that you would liken me to Pada as I wouldn't consider my writings anywhere near that category.


That link, although good for it's general description, is overdosed hagiography. But for the record, the first declaration of being "somebody" occurred in 1940. Even that date is in dispute according to the extremely fascinating research that I am undertaking. Anyhow we may be getting off-topic here...

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About Sivananda, I have one of his books called "Japa Yoga". I thought it was interesting to read and I rather liked it, but I felt put off by his "all paths to reach one goal" approach. He is descended from the Ramakrishna lineage. From what I've read I wouldn't have thought that his philosophy was high-end, but rather simple A-B-C kind of stuff.

Also, I am a fan of religious movies and my favourites are "Sita Swayamvar" (starring Rayi Kumar) and "Gopal Krishna" (starring Sachin). I once read in a Sivananda book (can't remember which, sorry) where he said that even religious movies were unsuitable since one could not be assured of the spirituality of the actors. I thought that was a good point.

Aghedananda Bharati, I have heard that name before, but I can't remember where..

What is it that worries you, Azra`iL? Developments in India, or in the UK, elsewhere? Just trying to understand.

Though I have not had the pleasure to acquaint myself with your anti-Sai writings in to any extensive degree, I understand that PADA stands in his own league, unchallenged. What prompted me to draw a parallel from your post was:

1. The need to repeatedly refer to a particular person with a derogative term, which I believe can only serve to hurt your credibility (e.g. "that moron"), and

2. That there seems to be a need to tarnish others over their connection, no matter how innocent, with the object of your despise. (E.g. contact someone concerning Sivananda.)

These two can really only serve to harm your case and your own credibility, and thereby prolong your mission. I cannot see how maintaining such attitudes can do anything but consume you, and eventually to transform you to something akin to the object of your persistent meditation. How many years of your precious life are you going to invest in fighting ghosts of the past? A decade? Three decades, or five?



Yes, a reincarnation of Shirdi Sai. I wouldn't think of that as something to stunning and radical in the Indian religious scene. Certainly nothing that would have caused Sivananda to not extend to him the courtesy of hosting him.

If a man with a wild afro hairdo and clad in saffron robes, came over and cured my back ache and on top of that mainfest a gold-embedded mala out of his ethereal jacket, I would probably think he's a cool enough figure, even if he said he was the reincarnation of the non-manifest Narayana Maharaja or the new chrystalization of the 26th 2nd avenue ocean of bliss.

Do you think there's a possibly that story is embellished a bit for PR purposes?

I for one do not accept Sai baba as being able to cure backs, manifest vibuti, watches or afro picks for that matter...

there IS on the other hand PLENTY of testimonials of misconduct of Sai Baba, thats a fact!

The moron comment was directed to Mr. SB himself, and there a number of far worse names that he can be called, and which he frankly deserves.


For the record, that comment was made in jest since there was mention of Sarlo. Sarlo and Guruphiliac work together and this is evident from Guruphiliac's writings. Other than that, I have no interest with Sivananda's connection with Mr. SB as such. Except, of course, if I come across information giving a very different view of their meeting. I am in no mood to accept the hagiographies of a documented liar that were written by a documented liar.


As long as it takes. Perhaps the only reason you can get away with talk like that is because, despite your own bad experiences with gurus, you have had the luxury of remaining in the same religious schema. I haven't, and I have finally come to the realisation that it is a trauma from which I may never fully recover. As I said earlier, I have found that I cannot move on unless the matter is completely closed. I have tried twice already and failed. On the other hand, some people are weird enough to think that standing up for truth and justice is an honourable thing to do. And anyway, things have moved on to a much more serious level than my own individual self-therapy.


Well that is because you are not acquainted well enough with the exegeses of the movement and the deception of this fella. I have recently come across information, through innovative research, that throws considerable doubt on this claim. That may not raise your eyebrows as such, but it is guaranteed to raise the eyebrows (and possibly their hackles) of thousands and millions of other people who have staked their entire lives on this claim.


As far as I am concerned, Sivananda was a "nice guy" who just provided hospitality when the fella felt like dropping in. I wonder what Sivananda made of his "materialisations", did he consider the fella to be a siddha-yogi of sorts or an avatar? An innovative essay that I wrote way back in 2001 indicates the former possibility.


My only advice would be to keep the kids away.

I personaly don't know if Sai can cure blacks, boobees, witches or afro picks, but I really think to uphold the integrety of gr we need a Saibaba thread to explore the claims of Azra 'il, and Madhava, who may secretly like the Sai for all we know.

Sai be manifestin my man madhava a fro-pick

Madhava-

Maybe Brainiac has a reason he is on his thing about Sai Baba that you just don't get or understand.

Brainiac does not need to be demeaned here publicaly by you, saying he is like pada etc, you sound like you did when you were top gun at GD..!

I agree. at any rate, I don't think brain is advocating ritvik gurus in place of the Saister. We all have our reasons for being irritated with this or that incarnation.

But I say, does anyone here know for a fact that Saibaba is indeed not god? Let him come fourth now

According to Babu no one is not god.

yea but with a fro...?

"even that which is not god is god" babuamrta

Speaking as an ex-devotee, I can say that he is not God.
I'd just like to say that in spite of the (shameless, haha!) advertising of my blog by virtue of my signature, I have never spoken even once about SB here to my knowledge. Even my recent post about Shashi Tharoor's nomination for the UN Sec-Gen post was given more in the context of "Indian news". Funnily enough, I have noticed mentions of SB by two other members here at GR, but I never rose to the occasion to make a comment when I have plenty. That is because I respected the boundaries of this board which predominantly discuss GV and ex-GV topics and I didn't want to post here with an agenda. I think that my participation here so far has been more or les on the subject of GV topics. So I'd like that to be acknowledged and understood please.
I'll also admit that my shyness in discussing this topic here (as indicated in my last post) is because my work is not without critics. I and my colleagues have been the subject of malicious slander and defamation campaigns where attempts have been made to ruin my life. I do have my stalkers and the mods of the board have been made aware of the problem, since I know for a fact that my stalkers are watching my every move. This has happened before in other Vaishnava forums too. I am a "hunted man". Still, I'm not scared but I'm just apprising the facts here. In any case I'm still not entirely keen on discussing this guy here but, like I said, if there is substantial interest then I'd be happy to contribute.

In answer to angrezi's question, I must admit that I took my cue from none other than Prabhupada himself. I paid attention when he said that an avatar must be predicted in the scriptures in order to be genuine. In actual fact I knew that already with my studies into Christianity but it was nice to hear it again with more forcefulness. And so indeed, one of the things that solidified my faith in SB's divinity were the profusion of "prophecies" all supposedly describing his advent on earth. Not only does this supposedly occur in Hindu scriptures, but in the scriptures of other religions too (Revelations 19, etc)! My research into this is still ongoing, but I have largely found these "prophecies" to be either complete fakes or gross distortions of the original. A good example of this would be the Islamic prophecy of the Mahdi, the Shia texts are almost completely unlike the info passed around in the SB community.

There are many other things that prove he is not God. For example, in my last post I mentioned that I had written a seminal essay in 2002 (corrected) that brought forward previously unknown (and highly scandalous!) information into the public eye, and which shed new light on his already-dubious origins. I'm pleased to say that my amateurish effort brought forth no less than three supporting essays from a scholarly figure. The basic premise of this essay was my presentation of the idea that SB may have acquired his powers through yogic practices or other similar methods, instead of being born with them as he claims and as millions believe as typical of an avatar. Believe it or not, this is a truly revolutionary and faith-breaking idea for SB devotees to contemplate. Four years later (2006) I have come across new information that supports and further confirms my original idea, which will soon be published among a host of other imminent exposés. There are many, many reasons why he is not God. Just for a laugh you can put "Krishna" in the search box at the top-right of my blog and read away, most notably my exposé of the "SK Picture Imbroglio".

In answer to Epitau's question, the concern I expressed primarily relates to Tharoor's nomination by the Indian Govt. for the position of the UN Sec-Gen. This is a guy who, if he gets the job, will take over from Kofi Annan. His mother is a devotee of SB and, although I haven't found a place where he directly states his "devoteehood", he has penned a gushing article in favour of SB for the International Herald Tribune, completely ignoring the resulting protests. His nomination is supported by Indian ex-Premier AB Vajpayee, who is also a devotee of SB and visited him on many occasions for SB's consultation on matters of national policy and government.
SB has a long and sordid history of having court justices, state governors, prime ministers, chiefs of police, presidents, and other dignitaries, in his pocket. His previous attempt to gain worldwide recognition by UNESCO (in 1999) failed miserably thanks to the efforts of protesting ex-devotees from all around the world. If Tharoor gets the position, is this time for SB's big break onto the world stage? He has predicting worldwide fame for himself since he was barely 7 years old. Of course I have spoken everything here in a nutshell, as there is much more to say and be said. There have been some legal developments also but I cannot speak about them pending an imminent official statement to be published on our website.

Oh there have been some developments here in the UK too, and plenty more on the way. Did you see the BBC documentary? I was personally involved with that.

I'll expect my stalker(s) to come in and hack me to death now. Hopefully the mods will be on guard.

What does all this have to do with GV? I found that I will always appreciate Prabhupada's influence in my life for a time, as I feel that his exegesis of Vaishnava philosophy completely reorganised my way of thinking about things, and helped me to understand things in an entirely new light. It has helped me to make spiritual commentary on many fundamental areas of disagreement between SB's theology and philosophy as compared to traditional "Hindu" exegeses of Vedantic thought. Recently I have found that SB devotees are posting links and bhajan mp3s from the RadioKrishnaCentrale site. Specifically they were listening to Damodarastaka and 'Sri Rupa-manjari Pada' by Narayana Maharaja. Some SB devotees now study Prabhupada's books and incorporate his ideas into their daily lives, even if it is mixed up with other crap SB stuff. One SB devotee published a book praising SB as the "Supreme Personality of Godhead". Considering the longtime hostility between ISKCON and SB Org., I think that these are encouraging developments and perhaps the time is ripe for them to receive enlightenment.

Sounds good to me .
To rescue whatever seems to be useful from paths or schools of thought that otherwise pose great problems in terms of coherence and "bona-fidity" .

Thank you Brainji. My question was spoken only to give opppertunity for such discussion here, as I noticed your reluctance. As a former mod, founding member-acarya, and future financial patron to this site, I think I can say that GR is really not for GV discussions per se, but repercussions of those discussions as it were, whether it be SB, LSD or S&M.

I for one know very little about SB, seeing his influence only in Hrishikesh, and pockets in S. India, but I think the guy warrants a discussion here by folks who know about him. I will indeed read your essay, thanks

I sure find Brainiac a whole hell of a lot more articulate in his anti-sai presentation than that pada dude thats for sure...

Madhava your wrong !