Gruesome reality, Slaughter Options

[Gomer]

I also have at least some respect for someone who is willing to hunt for his prey and eat only what he kills. But hunters usually kill the animal without letting it suffer. This kosher thing really freaks me out a bit and seems preposterous really.

I also respect these killers more than the cafe set who make it their lives mission to find the most tantalising edible possible.

The Kosher thing is almost identical to the Halal thing. Jews and Arabs also share identical genes. Despite this they both create a religious fantasy about being religiously and racially superior to their respective enemies.

[Prisni]

This is a big shock to me Prisni that you uncovered this only recently. Perhaps you learned it in school and forgot? For this dumb American, yours truly, we learned it in 8th grade mythology study in our literature class along with their corresponding planets. Saturday corresponds to to Saturn or Cronos, the Greek God. It must be something special for you to broaden your horizon after asking other dumb americans to do so.

Oh, I am happy that I managed to give a dumb american a chance to feel superior!

In socialistic Sweden of the 1960ies, you only learned what a worker need to know. To read and write, how to handle factory machines and such. And of course, we all chanted from Palmes little red book. There was severe corporal punishment if you misremembered anything, or did not salut the picture of Palme or the Swedish flag.
So it was a relief to come to ISKCON where we were allowed to read and think anything we wanted, and could reject the strictly controlled communistic society.

[Prisni]

Some ex-devotees seem to think that they must throw out all remnants of GV thought to be intellectually free. Compassion for the animals being one of the leftovers. Funny enough, these types were often the very ones' who were sitting on the nose-bleed chairs explaining the 'facts' in the Bhagavatam to the less intelligent.

Gomer, you got what inspired me to this thread spot on!

[Dhyana]

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, spiritual mentor of the religious fundamentalist party, Shas, which represents Middle Eastern Jews, reportedly said during a Sabbath homily earlier this week that “the sole purpose of non-Jews is to serve Jews.”

/.../

“Non-Jews were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world-only to serve the People of Israel,” Yosef said in his weekly Saturday night sermon which was devoted to laws regarding actions non-Jews are permitted to perform on the Sabbath.

/.../

“In Israel, death has no dominion over them…With gentiles, it will be like any person-They need to die, but God will give them longevity. Why? Imagine that one’s donkey would die, they’d lose their money.

“This is his servant…That’s why he gets a long life, to work well for this Jew.”

Yosef further elucidated his ideas about the servitude of gentiles to Jews, asking “why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap; and we will sit like an effendi and eat.”

“That is why gentiles were created.”

The concept of gentiles being infra-human beings or quasi-animals is well-established in Orthodox Judaism.

For example, rabbis affiliated with the Chabad movement, a supremacist but influential Jewish sect, teach openly that at the spiritual level, non-Jews have the status of animals.

Abraham Kook, the religious mentor of the settler movement, was quoted as saying that the difference between a Jew and a gentile was greater and deeper than the difference between humans and animals.

Holy Moly. How charming, this outspokenness.

[kalki]

This is a big shock to me Prisni that you uncovered this only recently. Perhaps you learned it in school and forgot? For this dumb American, yours truly, we learned it in 8th grade mythology study in our literature class along with their corresponding planets. Saturday corresponds to to Saturn or Cronos, the Greek God. It must be something special for you to broaden your horizon after asking other dumb americans to do so.

Oh, I am happy that I managed to give a dumb american a chance to feel superior!

Prisni, number one, I will never feel afraid of your power as an admin, and I hope you can live with that. You have yet to answer to my objection with your upholding of an authoritarian rule that mods should never be talked back to by members.

Instead of being stood corrected by my remark above, and that is that was in reference to your gross error for referring to me as like a dumb american, you are extending your error by then trying to claim I want to feel superior. All the while you hold on tight to your power as admin and still won't respond to my original comment to your erroneous understanding that mods are so special that no one should question their authority.

This caused me to openly disagree with you and when you continually dodged my points, I went ahead and made statements against you that Brainiac felt he was in the position to reproach me for, but how convenient it was that he never saw your goodself in any error. Meanwhile, Tapati does the same from her Live Journal excerpting my words against you and omitting your nonsense statements.

In my view, you don't fit Ananda's description of mod who "guides the community." At least with me you are intentionally creating discord and you won't take any suggestions directly or indirectly. I can see it but nothing but stubborness and an attachment to some type of power which means nothing in the real world, but for you for some reason it does.

In socialistic Sweden of the 1960ies, you only learned what a worker need to know. To read and write, how to handle factory machines and such. And of course, we all chanted from Palmes little red book. There was severe corporal punishment if you misremembered anything, or did not salut the picture of Palme or the Swedish flag.
So it was a relief to come to ISKCON where we were allowed to read and think anything we wanted, and could reject the strictly controlled communistic society.

Yes, well on this kind of information, you are right, I still do need to broaden my horizons. I frequently talk to Russians that I meet randomly and ask about the whole thing with socialism. I still don't understand it clearly. I get mixed views from people who are for and against it. I was totally unaware that there was any sort of socialism that was limiting or oppressive in any way in Scando countries. The reason for this is that i don't pay attention to the American education system's slandering of anything that is not US driven democratic supremacy. I take it all with a grain of salt and talk to people from other countries directly to see which way has its pros and cons. If you got relief from Iskcon, then great. Fortunately, in America I didn't have to experience too too much censorship of history and information, well although that isn't true because it is a well known that American history books are controlled by publishers who are controlled by political parties (oh, well it depends on which conspiracy that members of GR are willing to allow me to believe in). But more or less, education is progressive in the States and if it isn't we have guerrilla methods of finding out information.

Anyway Prisni, if you need to ask me to broaden my horizons, you could at least do it lovingly and not with any pride looking downward calling other stupid. If anything, Brainiac should have called you on that, especially if you expect to hold your position. Of course I know that I can' t remove you because the GR caballa that you keep denying will always keep you there unless they want to remove you.

[darwin]

Kalki you are very good at arguing your points and I thought that thing you wrote about three weeks ago about antisemitism was a real breakthrough in thinking about the issue. One thing you need to realize is that you do not get any emotional relief from your arguing with people here. I think I am a lot like you in that I want to argue and change people's minds. But I realized early on in my internet career that it is really the other readers I am writing for, not the person I am debating. Don't worry about rules. Since the rebellion early last summer none of these rules are being implemented. I like to go look at Tapati's blog too. But why is that? There is a whole world of Hare Krishna movement out there. Like I have always wanted to have a topic making fun of devotional real estate adds. And the first bare breasted devotee woman in a sari. Its been over ten years I have wanted to be the first to do that. The whole internet is in a kind of malaise right now. I think that is going to change.

[kalki]

Kalki you are very good at arguing your points and I thought that thing you wrote about three weeks ago about antisemitism was a real breakthrough in thinking about the issue. One thing you need to realize is that you do not get any emotional relief from your arguing with people here. I think I am a lot like you in that I want to argue and change people's minds. But I realized early on in my internet career that it is really the other readers I am writing for, not the person I am debating. Don't worry about rules. Since the rebellion early last summer none of these rules are being implemented.

Hey, thanks. I appreciate your honest and sincere recognition. My posting is not so contrary to your method. I don't just post for the person I speak to. I post for others who want to see my side of the discussion. I also post for my own well being of saying what i want to say and standing my ground.

there are a lot of people in my past who said things to me that i didn't believe, but later I thought about them and i changed. I realized my mistakes so it is important that we always speak out and that we have the space to do so. So I call upon the mods and admin to please support that space for truth, justice and free doughnuts after midnight, rather than misusing this rare opportunity of responsibilty on GR as many miscreants and mudhas might misuse their precious human rebirth after millions of cycles of birth and death and refuse to practice Krishna Consciousness in this lifetime and return home to Godhead. Hari Bol!

I just want to uphold my conception of this forum as a place to discuss rather than a place to be repressed and follow the warnings of others when it is only some of us getting warned while others do what they please as wild boars running naked in the wilderness eating stool and pissing indiscriminately of the ground they are treading and who they tread it with. Hari Bol!

Did you check out my apology to you? The one that I made after I erroneously commented that two members ganged up on your fiction like posting. I apologized because I did not make it clear enough that i was commenting more about the dynamic and less about defending you because you are way old school compared with me over here on GR and so are maybe the others who lovingly put you in place. So I made a proper apology to you to serve you and the two others concerned as well as any other readers who might think I am on your side for some reason. I don't take sides and I think you don't either, but I do agree or disagree with content regardless of who posts it.

I will also follow through with your request to apologize to Prisni if I haven't sort of done it somewhere already. I will do it again anyway at a later time when I get the mental space for it. I am only doing it because you requested, and not because I got an unfair, imbalanced, and unwarranted warning from moderation. Hare Krishna!!!

[Kalisurfer]

Since the rebellion early last summer none of these rules are being implemented. I like to go look at Tapati's blog too. But why is that? There is a whole world of Hare Krishna movement out there. Like I have always wanted to have a topic making fun of devotional real estate adds. And the first bare breasted devotee woman in a sari. Its been over ten years I have wanted to be the first to do that. The whole internet is in a kind of malaise right now. I think that is going to change.

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[Kalisurfer]

Kalki you are very good at arguing your points and I thought that thing you wrote about three weeks ago about antisemitism was a real breakthrough in thinking about the issue. One thing you need to realize is that you do not get any emotional relief from your arguing with people here. I think I am a lot like you in that I want to argue and change people's minds. But I realized early on in my internet career that it is really the other readers I am writing for, not the person I am debating.

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[kalki]

Kalki you are very good at arguing your points and I thought that thing you wrote about three weeks ago about antisemitism was a real breakthrough in thinking about the issue. One thing you need to realize is that you do not get any emotional relief from your arguing with people here. I think I am a lot like you in that I want to argue and change people's minds. But I realized early on in my internet career that it is really the other readers I am writing for, not the person I am debating.

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is that your brother Kali? he looks just like you.

[Kalisurfer]

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Yes brother Kalki,
that is me in my eternal servant form,
the merry prankster tricky dicky from Yorba Linda . . .
the old senile Polish hippy ex-mod artist . . .
the latte Kalisurfer.
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View at Youtube

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[kalki]

the old senile Polish hippy ex-mod artist . . .
the latte Kalisurfer.

well then I look forward to the new incarnation. when is he coming? this one is sounding like a broken record for a while now.

[Kalisurfer]

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Life's magic
happens in it's own perfect time!
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While expectations ... disappoint ... though almost still touchable ... as the past.
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[babu]

Since the rebellion early last summer none of these rules are being implemented. I like to go look at Tapati's blog too. But why is that? There is a whole world of Hare Krishna movement out there. Like I have always wanted to have a topic making fun of devotional real estate adds. And the first bare breasted devotee woman in a sari. Its been over ten years I have wanted to be the first to do that. The whole internet is in a kind of malaise right now. I think that is going to change.

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Its true, the internet is going to change and it all began here at G.R. Folks are call authorities to accountability which is all well and good as long as they don't account for themselves.

[Prisni]

Before coming to ISKCON, the only way I have heard the word "authority" used is in phrases like "authoritative answer from name server" (there was just no name servers in those days). The ISKCON usage was puzzling. But then many things were puzzling there. Mysterious spiritual culture?
You can call me surprised when users here start to speak about authority.
Is it an ISKCON thing or an american culture thing?
Another culture?
another world?
another universe?

Then of course, with the concept of authority, "devotees" from such a culture think that the spiritual world is also an authoritative structure..
.... No wonder many of such ISKCONites can't understand the concept of ultimate free will.

There we have religions with an "authority" forcing them to be away from God. They call that authority, against which the souls have no chance, for Satan.
They try to transfer the meaning of Satan to GV religion, and feverisly try to find the concept.
But there is none. Prabhupada said that the material world was a jail with the doors open, and you just have to walk out. There is no authority in that jail structure. No warden, no Satan.

Lacking the conecpy of "no authority", I guess they just did not understand how it could be.
So what can I say?
It is not surprising then that the concept of no authority over the contents of GR is so alien.

[kalki]

Before coming to ISKCON, the only way I have heard the word "authority" used is in phrases like "authoritative answer from name server" (there was just no name servers in those days).

I don't get what you are saying here. You say that you had only heard the word "authority" in reference to servers, yet there was hardly or no internet in those days. I had only heard of internet in 1989 and I assume you joined before that. Then you say that there were no name servers in those days but you say that you only heard it in terms of namer servers. Which one is it? Is there some mistake in your sentence that is confusing what you are saying? Please clarify.

The ISKCON usage was puzzling. But then many things were puzzling there. Mysterious spiritual culture?
You can call me surprised when users here start to speak about authority.

Well there are not even that many users talking about this word. Babu just mentioned it, I have brought it up recently, and Darwin the past, and Kali refutes the existence of it. Perhaps one day the "users" here at GR could actually talk about what they mean by "authority" rather than dissenting "users" just refuting its existence without bothering to find out whether the word is being used with even a remotely common understanding. Is it that time now with your comment here? If so, I am providing at least my use of the word with an online dictionary's definition as an "authority."

By the way, I don't see that Iskcon has used the word authority in another way than the meaning of the word in English. So I have used the definition in relation to Iskcon examples since I think their use is not misleading in any way of the meaning of the word.
au·thor·i·ty   [uh-thawr-i-tee, uh-thor-] noun, plural -ties.

1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.

In the case of Iskcon, they often say that Srila Prabhupada's Gita is the authority on Krishna Consicousness and that we must approach an authoritative source, such as the "as it is" version if we are to correctly understand Krishna's authoritative words.

2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization: Who has the authority to grant permission?

In the case of Iskcon, who has the right to authorize? Prabhupada, or various members of the disciplic succession, particularly the acharyas. Well, also the temple presidents can authorize minor decision making.

3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.

GBC, governing body commission who has the authority to represent Prabhupada.

4.Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government: They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.

Members of the GBC who are dispatched to execute orders, such as various heads of committees to carry out investigation.

5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.

The Gita, Prabhpada's books, and the GBC are supposedly all accepted sources of authoritative information.

Then of course, with the concept of authority, "devotees" from such a culture think that the spiritual world is also an authoritative structure..
.... No wonder many of such ISKCONites can't understand the concept of ultimate free will.

It is true that the devotees see the cosmic structure given in Bhagavatam as authoritative but I don't see it that they can't understand what is free will. Krishna is said to give free will in Gita isn't it? I have always assumed that they understood this properly, unless your culture has a different meaning of free will. I wan't aware that it did.

There we have religions with an "authority" forcing them to be away from God. They call that authority, against which the souls have no chance, for Satan. They try to transfer the meaning of Satan to GV religion, and feverisly try to find the concept.

In the Bible at least, Satan was cast into Hell by the authority of God but I don't think that humans have been cast away by any authority. They are born here on earth and that is normal. They have free will to choose at this point in their life at every moment.

Iskcon tries to Christianize the concept of the jivas being trapped into the material world as they were plunged into this world as a result of misuse of their minute independence, or rather I believe this concept comes from Bhaktivinoda and is not shared by other Gaudiya Acharyas. Bhaktivedanta Swami hardly tried to dispute the "authority" of the teachings that he received in parampara.

I don't think the analogy of Satan is 100% wrong, but it is just not 100% comparable on all levels. To use Satan's banishment does not work well because other Gaudiya acharyas explain that we have been born outside of Goloka anyway and that there was no banishment whatsoever. Others are saying that we are not born there, but are there in the form of our siddha dehas and that we are hear in the material world just forgetful of that, and this forgetfullness is our "fall down." Not that we physically fall.

But the idea of Maya tempting us with desire is something that Satan also does in the Christian sense. So I believe at least some of the analogy has some merit at least and there is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

But there is none. Prabhupada said that the material world was a jail with the doors open, and you just have to walk out. There is no authority in that jail structure. No warden, no Satan.

There is a warden indeed in this paradigm. Maya devi is that warden. But it is true that it is our choice to be duped by her or not.

[Prisni]

I don't get what you are saying here. You say that you had only heard the word "authority" in reference to servers, yet there was hardly or no internet in those days.

What I refer to is quite computeresque, and refers to computer lingo. Meaning that computers use words like "authoritative" already in the late 1970ies, but I had never heard humans use it. I don't mean that I did not know the meaning of the word, in the dictionary sense, I just never heard it used in the context it was used in ISKCON.

It is true that the devotees see the cosmic structure given in Bhagavatam as authoritative but I don't see it that they can't understand what is free will. Krishna is said to give free will in Gita isn't it? I have always assumed that they understood this properly, unless your culture has a different meaning of free will. I wan't aware that it did.

This is referring to deep philosophical issues. There are two ways of gaudiya vaisnavism, vaidhi bhakti and raga(nuga) bhakti.
Vaidhi bhakti is bhakti in fear of the authority of God. If you are on that platform, you desire to follow that authority, and the will of God in minute detail, to not get punishment for incurring a sin.
When you come to raga(nuga) bhakti, the fear of God is not there anymore, you only act out of free will.
When conditioned, our free will is to enjoy Krishna's external energy, without concern for Krishna as a person. When together with Krishna, our free will is in tune with Krishna, so there is no need for rules or authority anymore. We spontaneously act in accordance with Krishna's internal energy.
Understanding of this is beyond ISKCON teachings, so therefore my comment.

[kalki]

I don't mean that I did not know the meaning of the word, in the dictionary sense, I just never heard it used in the context it was used in ISKCON.

As far as I can see, the dictionary sense of the word and the usage in Iskcon is correctly applied and so I see little distinction or your point in that regard, hence, my several comments in the thread above where I related to you at least the many instances that I know Iskcon uses the word authority. If there are other uses that you heard of in Sweeden or any other temple you visited in another land, I am not aware of what usage that might be.

When you come to raga(nuga) bhakti, the fear of God is not there anymore, you only act out of free will.
When conditioned, our free will is to enjoy Krishna's external energy, without concern for Krishna as a person. When together with Krishna, our free will is in tune with Krishna, so there is no need for rules or authority anymore. We spontaneously act in accordance with Krishna's internal energy.
Understanding of this is beyond ISKCON teachings, so therefore my comment.

I suppose this may depend on which place in Iskcon one is associated with. I would still contend as I had before that Iskcon is not so uniform a place spanning continents or even state by state withing America. I realize that you have many more years under your belt than I have in Iskcon but the socialist experience of your country and the breath of fresh air in Iskcon is not what I had gone through in the USA. So for instance, this distinction bewtween vaidhi and raganuga and acting spontaneously in devotion was the subject of my own concentration since it came up in a small study group reading Sri Isopanisad where the point comes up in a verse, and that was indeed from Prabhupada.

[Prisni]

Kalki, your religion appears to be authority, the look for which authority to find. You appear to reject one authority, since another say a different thing.
My religion is free will, no authority.

If I look for God, it is not to find someone to follow the authority of and worship, it is to find someone to love without restrictions.
Therefore bhakti.

[babu]

Elsewhere in the world, a dog chases its tail thinking, "Today I shall finally catch you."