Is objective reasoning limited to the topics that the GR mods or other influential members prefer?, split off from anti-semitism and GR Options

[kalki]

QUOTE (Kalisurfer @ Jan 16 2012, 08:45 AM)
* * * * ( A note to the moderators, since I started this thread, I'd really like to see it closed, and allow the discussion to take place in a new thread created by Homer or Kalki if this is their desire. I would like this thread to end on a high note of peace and reconciliation, and not be an area to reopen old grievances, or from my standpoint of view, be a germinating area of racial hate and misinformation. Thanks.)

Homer: I would rather see a proper rebuttal of what Kalki posted above. Why is that so difficult?

Yes well Kali frequently skips over the main points of any arguments I post here on GR. Admittedly, my post was kinda long because I was on a roll and I posted and my lights went out so no time to edit.

I think he has a lot of difficulty dealing with actual points and simply wants to reahash his old point which is that he has already thoroughly addressed the issue elsewhere and everyone should wake up and smell his coffee.

I also find this problematic somehow that because he opened a thread, that gives him the right to demand its closure even though the discussion is taking place. In other words, it was not a discussion thread he started but rather a one way announcement/warning to those who are being bad in his eyes on GR for being whatever he would like to blame people for. For some reason, moderators are not yet interested in restricting another member's false accusations that have no sound basis.

That is the first thing to do to protect people's rights on this forum rather than yielding to censorship which is the real evil behind the false accusations of others supposedly being Nazi sympathizers.

[kalki]

QUOTE (kalki @ Jan 15 2012, 02:23 PM)
There is also some other shocking evidence to show that Jews themselves orchestrated the Holocaust by some complicated planning in order to get support for an Israeli state in the future which is now getting full support from the US and many Palestinians are the casualties to this end.

If there is more concentration of power with Jews, why is it a surprise?

Kali: I don't communicate with people who hold or believe the statements above to be true, though you have total freedom to express these things, much as Homer does, but there will be no further responses from me to you after this post.

You are communicating with me right now and that is your first most obvious mistake. Why not just leave it alone if you don't agree with it? And by the way, how dare you assume what I believe in? I said there is evidence and that is all. I did not say conclusive evidence but at least enough to make an argument. I am not a person who takes sides at all. I have interest in debate and choose not to be emotionally involved in my debates as much as you seem to be. I guess I should access the evidence such as references to letters, etc to show you that you are wrong. Wrong about the subject being a closed case, but not wrong that you should hold your own opinion. And if there were no further responses from you on this post, why not just not post instead of letting me know that you won't post. You are obviously trying to make a statement which is quite unnecessary. If you don't like something, just be civil and leave it alone and stop pretending that others are the ones that are carrying on when it is really you.

I sense you are just trying to stir things up, bringing in old grievances and wanting to create a flamewar with me on this thread. I have written everything that I can about this issue on this forum, so I have no desire to repeat my writing on this sensitive issue, or be forced by name calling and verbal bulling to respond to the type of thinking you and Homer hold to be true concerning the history of the Jewish people.

You have this all wrong. Another of your unnecessary gross assumptions and attempts to caste blame on me. I did indeed bring up specific problems that you have done earlier and seem to repeat. I always offer you specifics and you never respond to them specifically. You are only capable of throwing back a blame as if I am at fault to bring something to your attention. I don't know what name I called you or how I bullied you in any way. If I did call you a name, please let me know what it was before you blame me for doing so. I honestly don't remember doing it. As for bullying, I think it was I accusing you of doing so and instead of responding to that by apologizing or proving me that you haven't done that, you turn around and point a finger at me for bullying you. This is the most absurd method of responding there is and I have seen you do it before to me and that is why our discussions never go anywhere. You repeatedly dodge whatever I say and try to end it by casting blame at me. I don't if and why others actually by your "bs."

You claim to have proven that Homer is expounding a history of the Jews and you caste me with the same blame. I have done nothing of the sort. I have simply corroborated that patters exist with Jews as they do with Blacks, Indians or whoever. But the word "jew" is in my sentence and you find license to blame a person as anti-semitic for doing so. That my friend Kali is bullying at its best. I have not said a single thing against Jews whatsoever but you are convinced of it. YOu are totally off base my friend and there are no amount of words I can use to convince you. But frankly, what would be the use of any such attempt. You have done nothing but jumped the gun with me and blamed me for nothing that i have done. The return of Kali's straw man argument and coming forward as always with a chip on his shoulder. Try to actually read my posts for once instead of scanning for words that you have predetermined are offensive.

My viewpoints and understanding differ from yours but can also be expressed here, as they have. No one is being censored or stopped from expressing their views, but I or anyone else can choose not to participate and not express their viewpoints any further also, especially if they feel historical hateful belief systems on race are being propagated and posted here under the guise of just being anti-Zionist or pro-Palestinian.

As that you have made yourself clear that your previous proofs and theorems are already up on GR, your very protest of my sensible assessment is an attempt to censor me. If you choose not to participate, please by all means...don't participate. Why are you even posting here? To assert you have the right not to post? What kind of logic are you using?

There are no racist arguments coming from my side and you have done nothing to prove them as such but instead caste blame on me. I haven't had the time to assess if Homer's posts are what you say they are. I am neutral on that issue until I check out his posts, thank you very much. If I find out they are, I will support you in your claims. For the time being, I speak for myself and I am simply corroborating only the points that I see balanced and fair in his posts that I have read. But overall, you seem way overboard in calling him a Jew Hater, etc.

I have no desire to be a part of, or contribute to such historical falsehood and tragic negativity, the kind that that continues to induce mass suffering and death upon people on this planet. You and Homer will have ample time and space to have the last word on this issue.

You are off base lumping me in with Homer. We are two distinct people and he happen to have supported me way back when you were being very very rude to me for falsely accusing me of demeaning homosexuals. With that I just restate a fact that you have never been held accountable for, not wanting to reignite an old fire, as you say. But for some reason, you have the privelege to make wrong acussations toward me and make off scott free and then come back and accuse me again by lumping me in with Homer. Have you some type of secret investment in GR that allows you to never be curtailed for your "bs?"

Kalki: I am especially waiting to see what Kalifurker has to say since it is obvious I am rebutting some of his sentiment.

Kalisurfer is how my member name is properly spelled, not that it matters much at this point, but no rebuttal or further communication will be forthcoming.

Ya well there you go again trying to see things where there is nothing. I made a typo and that is about it. You choose to see the world with hurt and damaged lenses seeing that everyone is out to get you for being a Jew. For god sakes man, nobody wants to do you in on GR. Don't be so paranoid. At least I don't want to harm you in any way and I guess I can't rightfully make that claim for others. But your comments are so out of control. Just get a grip, take a chill pill or something.

* * * * ( A note to the moderators, since I started this thread, I'd really like to see it closed, and allow the discussion to take place in a new thread created by Homer or Kalki if this is their desire. I would like this thread to end on a high note of peace and reconciliation, and not be an area to reopen old grievances, or from my standpoint of view, be a germinating area of racial hate and misinformation. Thanks.)

where do you get off slandering people and blaming them for racial hate and so forth? aren't you just a little embarrassed that more sensible people will view you with skepticism? I mean really.

So your thread was intended to be a one way message and not a dialogue? You really must have a financial investment at stake here.

[kalki]

Here is my old post from the thread that was closed. I open it up as an invitation to Kalkisurfer to rebut. It would be appropriate if he does because there is absolutely nothing in my post down below that bespeaks of any anti-semitism. He has completely decided to color the post in his own anti-semitic hating shades.

If anyone else can find a way to show that my post is what he says it is, then let them speak. I have made clear parallels that Jew agenda is not much different than an agenda created by any other race or religous group, such as Catholics, Blacks, etc. I believe these points need to be addressed in a spirit of congenial discussion.

I would just request that members not mudsling calling people Jew Haters and the like as that it only degrades and confuses the discussion. Kali, please don't do that again. You have done it for far too long. I am so tired of it. Let a more sensible responding system take place where members actually validly critique another member's points. I also in return vow to not boo another member for his or her points of view, unless of course they are points of views which curtail or demean my point of view. Let everyone have their right to discuss in other words and put an end to discussion board tyranny.

My points have been grouped together for anyone willing to examine. Please respond and show me where is the alleged Jew Hate in my speech. If Kali or no one else can show me where it is, then I guess Kali was just setting off another false alarm and trying to get people to side with him and create discord among members. Kali, please don't blame others for things they haven't done and if they have done it, prove it validly, not with accusations. In other words, if you want to point out someone's mistake, then show proof and also do it in a spirit to educate that person, but don't demean them. I have always tried to do that for you from the beginning even after you wrongly accused me of hating homosexuals.

Kalki does not hate homosexuals or Jews but i am starting to disklike strongly those who accuse me of such unnecessarily.

Part One

Anti-semitism as I understand it is hating someone for being a jew. In the same way that being racist is hating someone for their particular race, for instance, white people or frankly even Indians or Hispanics hating Blacks or any combination of one race hating the other ones.

But guess what folks! Wake up and smell the coffee. Prejudice is a fact of life. I learned in science class that when you see the color of any particular object it also bespeaks of prejudice because you think that the color is such and such when it is only the way the light refracts from it and appears a certain way to your naked eye. We all judge things at first glance and hardly spend time to see what is beyond the surface. To deprogram from such a shallow way of thinking is something that takes contemplation and education.

But back to whether or not a Zionist agenda is racist or prejudice or whatever...I say it is obviously not. Is it not a common opinion of some GR members that Iskcon bramacharis and sannyasis created an agenda to demote female practioners? Why is it okay to do think of that? Is it not prejudice? Sometimes patterns exist in the world. Sometimes clubs exist. Sometimes those clubs get together and make alliances with one another. Weren't you ever in a room where all the men got together and decided to tease one girl in the room? Was it because they were male inherently that they did it, or was it a small group that decided to do it and used some male persuasion to get others on board? It is a fine line isn't it?

I lived in New York City where there are many wars going on between races. One of the wars is a war of Blacks who believe that Whites have all the power in the world. The Black Muslims call them the "white devil." Are they wrong for thinking that all whites are evil and it is inherent with their genealogical birth? Yes they are. It is a major oversight. But if you sit down with any of them and ask them if they really believe that, they will admit to you that what they mean to say is that whites have become in power of most everything and blacks in America who come from the slave trade will never be able to get up there and thus their community will always be the least influential the same as what women have always felt in America and still do to some degree, or even a large degree. The statistics are there to show how much income is made by women and blacks in America versus the white male contingency. How can you argue with facts and how can you relegate their particular argument to being anti-male propaganda or anti-white propaganda?

Well no one really does that do they? Everyone accepts that white males are more in power than blacks or women. But the minute someone has noticed a pattern of Jews being powerful and controlling large sums of money and corporations etc that influence world decisions and governments, you have been labeled a racist of some sort. Where has the logic fallen apart, please tell me? The assessment has been done in exactly the same way but when it comes to the topic of jews, you have just made a mortal sin...a completely grave error. Why oh why?

We are not this body my friends. These bodies are just coverings. Sometimes we use these coverings to team up against others due to common bodily features. Haven't you ever seen the biggest boys in the class bully others because they could with their size and shape? So if a few jews who have money got into the business of politics and economics, which current history and trends show, why can't they play the same game? For that matter, their are few blacks doing the same, as well as a few Indians doing the same, as well as a few Catholics doing the same, and a few Iskcon GBC men doing the same. Everyone on the planet has its little group that they are trying to vie for some type of political and economic supremacy. Just see how Americans cheered at Osama bin Laden's death. They cheered like it was a touch down at a football game. I for one do not sing out when a human being dies, no matter who it was. But the fact that American's are caught up doing that and featured on national television says something about America as a whole. Oh but I am also an American, so is it racist when someone says to me that "you Americans are heartless!" I don't think so. They are speaking a truth about America's popular contingency. I am not part of that contingent and I hold little power in the American pie.

[kalki]

Part Two

I have seen plenty of valid researches showing that Hitler himself had much less to do with the decision of the Holocaust than his other cohorts and he more or less was part of the decision but more or less was going along with what others decided. A Jewish historian wrote a book showing that Hitler himself wanted the Jews out of Germany and not that he wanted them exterminated. This was a circumstance. There is also some other shocking evidence to show that Jews themselves orchestrated the Holocaust by some complicated planning in order to get support for an Israeli state in the future which is now getting full support from the US and many Palestinians are the casualties to this end.

To say that this has nothing to do with the basis of a New World Order is just ridiculous because none of our politicians have been secretive about such planning. If you see Jews collaborating with a few Catholics and a few Iraquis who were in bed with the US against their previous dictator (sorry can't even remember his name) then why be surprised? If there is more concentration of power with Jews, why is it a surprise? If it were more with another race or religion would it be any better and less prejudice when we find that news out?

To think that all governments in the world are not completely networked with corporations, religious groups, etc and not fighting for world domination is just complete hogwash. Talk to any politician who is doing their job. It is in fact their job description. Do you think that all nations are just warring each other so they can arrive at world peace and start a farm together? Are they fighting over who gets to dig the shitter out back or clean the latrine afterwards?

I think my points are clear and my conclusion is that noticing a Zionist agenda is not more racist or prejudice than noticing the influence of the Catholic Church in the world or the Al Queda's influence on Muslim nations or seeing how Walmart is trying to destroy all little businesses around or how Nike sweat shops are exploiting their workers in a serious way for profit or how loggers are killing our trees causing landslides and water pollution for profit without any care for the future of the earth, etc, the list goes on.

I don't accept the idea that it is okay to protest any of these groups fight to get to the top and then boo and hiss them in protest and then when it comes to Jews, nobody is allowed to say anything if they start to notice a pattern or uncovered some historical documents that shed some light about who made what decision in the days of the Holocaust. We don't react so strongly about any other genocide in the world as we do to the genocide of the Jews, so what is going on here?

If you don't like some news on the board, ignore it. Don't try to control it. Don't worry, i don't think anyone has the power to innaugurate a holocaust on this board and I don't think we are having any neo-nazis join us anytime soon. Most neo-nazis never chanted the holy names and probably never will unless Iskcon starts dressing the Deities like Hitler and his halfsister wife (what ever her name was).

To assume that Homer or anyone else is trying to take over the board with neo-nazi sentiment is completely absurd and has no valid basis. Much more there was valid basis to assume that previously moderators had much too much control around here but that was jested by some moderators that there was a foolish theory that the moderators were trying to control this board and all others on the net or that Iskcon hierarchy had infiltrated control of the GR board.

Upon completing my rant, I open up to criticisms, accusations, pissy commentary and the like...I am especially waiting to see what Kalifurker has to say since it is obvious I am rebutting some of his sentiment. And by the way, I was also taught from childhood to be very wary of bullies who forbid freedom to express their own views so I will stand up for myself or anyone else that is being put down for his or her views, perhaps similar yet so different that you want to police anyone who seems to be collecting some type of support for anti-semitism.

So I vote for free speech and I am not in favor of this board suppressing views and wrongly casting into the realm of racism or anti semitism or whatever.

In summary, revealing the details of a Zionist plot can not be in any way anti-semitic. If you want to say so then I believe that need to control and suppress someone's opinion is about as Nazi as you can get!

To Kali: Your views are welcome by the way. I have no interest to suppress them, but if you try to suppress mine, I will stand up for myself and I will defend myself against your anti-Semitic blaming game. If I have to I will call my old Jewish girlfriend to prove to you I am not anti-semitic at all. And if you call her an anti-semite then it will more or less prove that you are the one who is anti-semite. Now isn't that a twist!!

[Brainiac]

Can I get an explanation of what this topic of anti-Semtisim/Jewish cabals or whatever has to do with GR, Iskcon, or even GV as a whole?

If this was some kinda conspiracy theory discussion forum, then maybe, and even though we do discuss many other things aside from the usual GV-related things such as our hobbies, interests, political news and so on, surely it must be recognised that this topic is really at the extreme or irrelevant end of the spectrum?

I was actually glad that what little of the topic that was discussed died a natural death shortly before the new year, so I'm surprised at why it has risen again, seemingly more specific as to bait members as to their views?

If certain members have expressed their wish to discontinue further participation in such discussions, is it appropriate to keep trying to draw them back in?

What stands to be gained here?

[darwin]

Can I get an explanation of what this topic of anti-Semtisim/Jewish cabals or whatever has to do with GR, Iskcon, or even GV as a whole?

It has everything to do with it. The ISKCON of Prabhupada was a religion started in America where for the first time Jews were able to join with non-Jews. Our Babylon and Egypt. I see Kalki and Homer as victims of anti-semitism even though they don't even know it. I see people like this as the future friend and allies of Jewish people. They already are in some ways. Look how they are trying to think things through. I hope that people like this will throw off their Leftist indoctrination.

[darwin]

We should think outside this atheist paradigm. This forum is the center of the intellectual universe. We should expect something great to come from the people of our Hare Krishna movement and that this forum will be the place new ideas are created.

Didn't kalisurfer start this debate with Kalki? Kalki spent hours responding with extremely well written posts that seemed to me to be a beginning to the West throwing off its racism of racial self hatred and marxist self hating jew self jew hating. Even the Unitarian minister the other week damned himself as a white man. This is disgusting.

And this is the same problem that ruined this forum before. Even without Jewish issues people were always being shut down and driven away. It seemed every other week kalisurfer's hair was on fire about one thing or another. Just ignore it and be fair and objective.

[ePiTau]

as for Leftist, if you move far enough left you come out right,
for what goes around comes around -- WHACK!! (sound of skull cracking),
since we all move in circles by courtesy of space (even mental space) curving back on itself;

[Homer]

Can I get an explanation of what this topic of anti-Semtisim/Jewish cabals or whatever has to do with GR, Iskcon, or even GV as a whole?

Most of the material within this forum does not have anything to do with GV.

The obvious parallel is that it is taboo to speak out on the psychological abuse and philosophical absurdities within ISKCON. If one speaks out he is labelled as a demon/envious/blasphemer and is understood as being fit only for condemnation. This mirrors what happens when anything Jewish is questioned - even the most blatant atrocities being committed in the name of Israel.

[Homer]

as for Leftist, if you move far enough left you come out right,
for what goes around comes around -- WHACK!! (sound of skull cracking),
since we all move in circles by courtesy of space (even mental space) curving back on itself;

Tell that to Albert Einstein...

"Letters to the Editor
New York Times
December 4, 1948

TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughoutthe world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement. The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.
Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants ? 240men, women, and children - and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin. The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.
Discrepancies Seen
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.
In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.
The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ
HANNAH ARENDT
ABRAHAM BRICK
RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO
ALBERT EINSTEIN
HERMAN EISEN, M.D.
HAYIM FINEMAN
M. GALLEN, M.D.
H.H. HARRIS
ZELIG S. HARRIS
SIDNEY HOOK
FRED KARUSH
BRURIA KAUFMAN
IRMA L. LINDHEIM
NACHMAN MAISEL
SEYMOUR MELMAN
MYER D. MENDELSON
M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY
SAMUEL PITLICK
FRITZ ROHRLICH
LOUIS P. ROCKER
RUTH SAGIS
ITZHAK SANKOWSKY
I.J. SHOENBERG
SAMUEL SHUMAN
M. SINGER
IRMA WOLFE
STEFAN WOLF.

New York, Dec. 2, 1948"

http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2012...sed-israel.html

[kalki]

Can I get an explanation of what this topic of anti-Semtisim/Jewish cabals or whatever has to do with GR, Iskcon, or even GV as a whole?

I think I am honestly not so much involved in this one as much as what Kali has identified my role as. That I want to make clear if that will help you any as to what I have to do with it. Almost nothing.

But I will try to give you information as much as I see it and as much as I know. Personally, 3 years ago, I decided to reinvolve myself with GR after about 2 years of no posting and contributed to a thread which was asking about the Denmark Carbon talks. I posted that i heard that it was all a New World Order scam and some notions that Alex Jones put forth in his video, "Fall of the Republic." I also later after some responses offered a link that explains the New World Order theory. At that point, Kali branded me as a Homosexual hater or at least being insensitive to homosexuals. I pleaded I did nothing of the sort and then I was forced into battle with Kali over his reasons for thinking I was doing harm in his spirit to protect the board.

I am not sure, I would have to go back to that discussion, but Kali may or may not have linked his hatred of New World Order conspiracy to a theory that Jews are behind the NWO. If it was not then, I remember that references were made later. Quite honestly, I did not know of that theory of such a connection until about last year through my own independent research and at that time I offered some points about a Jewish author claiming that Hitler was not behind the holocaust and more so some Jewish conspirators were. I mentioned this then and now in an objective spirit though I fear it has not been taken that way by Kali who makes repeated posts about his Jewish background and knowing those who suffered and on that basis he is bound to protect freedoms on the board against such heinous evils from every happening again. (for me this is a bit too overboard).

The point about Jewish cabals I think comes from Kali in his effort to suspect where my or Homer's fears are and frankly, I have made no reference to a Jewish Kabal. If anything, I don't think that Kabbalists have anything to do with any shred of truth there may be in a Jewish based conspiracy toward a NWO.

If this was some kinda conspiracy theory discussion forum, then maybe, and even though we do discuss many other things aside from the usual GV-related things such as our hobbies, interests, political news and so on, surely it must be recognised that this topic is really at the extreme or irrelevant end of the spectrum?

I believe this was a topic of discussion at some point earlier about better defining the spirit of the board. To my understanding, we were previously defined as a group of ex-vaishnavas plus some other spiritual sorts who are searching for a life or whatever in whatever but also have interests in secular topics of interest which may or may not have anything to do with being ex-vaishnava or not.

For me, Prabhupada inspired me greatly to understand that the government leaders of the world were conspiring like anything and we need to develop farm communities where we chant hare krishna and do sort of spiritual battle with the demons on the planet. So for me conspiracy fits right in with my reality. Aside from that, I don't think this has to be a conspiracy theory board to bring up the topic as it is inter related with politics an economics. It is in the newspaper. If you are suggesting we don't talk about it, then it would seem as trivial as saying we don't need to talk about outdated marketing ads because it is also not related to gaudiya or ex-gaudiya affairs.

I was actually glad that what little of the topic that was discussed died a natural death shortly before the new year, so I'm surprised at why it has risen again, seemingly more specific as to bait members as to their views?

If you are following the thread, you will see clearly what happened. Right now Kali claims that i have revived a dead horse. I logged in two or three days ago after at least one year I guess (check your mod records) and I clicked on new topics and found this thread where I was mentioned by both Homer and Kali.

Homer refers to me as respectful and insightful if there ever was such a member and Kali replies that the "respectful and insightful" Kalki is not here to defend Homer so he stands alone. For my taste it is totally slanderous to use such sarcasm toward me by Kali because I think everyone knows that he has never considered me anything but the opposite of what Homer appreciated me for. And also I don't think it is polite of him to try to win an argument on the basis that this member has no support. It reminds me of the times when Kali, Aranesque, Ananda and a few others all decided to have the same view repeatedly against me and I thought it was really fucked up and discouraging. I don't think he should have done that to me or tried it with Homer now and I called him on it. So am I to blame for reviving a topic that nobody wants?



This post has been edited by kalki: Jan 17 2012, 12:50 PM

[kalki]

Can I get an explanation of what this topic of anti-Semtisim/Jewish cabals or whatever has to do with GR, Iskcon, or even GV as a whole?

It has everything to do with it. The ISKCON of Prabhupada was a religion started in America where for the first time Jews were able to join with non-Jews. Our Babylon and Egypt. I see Kalki and Homer as victims of anti-semitism even though they don't even know it. I see people like this as the future friend and allies of Jewish people. They already are in some ways. Look how they are trying to think things through. I hope that people like this will throw off their Leftist indoctrination.

Thanks for caring. Yes I do like to think things through. I am not afraid of discussion but i am afraid of repression. I don't know that i can be a friend to Jews anymore than I am a friend to anyone who has the right to live, eat, and breathe. But yes, I get your point. Well said. And thanks.

[kalki]

We should think outside this atheist paradigm. This forum is the center of the intellectual universe. We should expect something great to come from the people of our Hare Krishna movement and that this forum will be the place new ideas are created.

Didn't kalisurfer start this debate with Kalki? Kalki spent hours responding with extremely well written posts that seemed to me to be a beginning to the West throwing off its racism of racial self hatred and marxist self hating jew self jew hating. Even the Unitarian minister the other week damned himself as a white man. This is disgusting.

And this is the same problem that ruined this forum before. Even without Jewish issues people were always being shut down and driven away. It seemed every other week kalisurfer's hair was on fire about one thing or another. Just ignore it and be fair and objective.

"Ho," as we say at the rainbow gatherings. I am in agreement with you. "Fingers sparkling in the air" as we demonstrate in the consensus decision making communities.

[kalki]

Brainiac said:

If certain members have expressed their wish to discontinue further participation in such discussions, is it appropriate to keep trying to draw them back in?

and

What stands to be gained here?

think one solution is if you don't like a topic, don't comment. Why is there any feeling of drawing others in? I guess in that case it is all Kali's fault for using sarcasm against me isn't it now? But while I oppose his use of sarcasm, I take responsibility for drawing myself in and likewise don't take responsibilty for drawing anyone else in.

I guess this is a discussion and nothing more. I don't see any reason to oppose discussions because someone doesn't like a discussion. If someone doesn't like it, then they shouldn't discuss it. It dies out as you say and everyone is happy.

The only thing I can see that is to gain is if something is still an issue, the issue should be found out. You are a mod, so you are sort of deputed to look after bad vibrations on the board and their reasons for starting. At least that is what I see in the value of a mod. I actually tried to get myself involved before i got in more hot water or dislike by Kali but i don't think he wanted me to do it. He told me it would take more time than I had available, so I just left it alone. One year later I did express interest again, but no reply from anyone I expressed interest to, so I am fine with that.

But whether as a mod or a member, I would just want to contribute a way to see that heated debates don't become bad and nobody is censored. So I suggested last year that time be taken to discuss moderation methods and issues such as authoritarianism. The overwhelming response that I felt was that the discussion was not wanted, although there was a thread in place to do it. I posted a few things and lost energy from spending time answering to members and mods that wanted to boo and hiss the minority of members who claimed there were issues to be discussed. I felt discouraged and left before doing what i wanted to do, which is make suggestions and hear feedback.

As anything in life, the best value to be gained in a conflict is to understand its causes. So I would vote for everyone to do that. What I see now, if I remove myself from the conflict is that Homer feels accused by Kali for putting up non-objective harmful links. Kali feels that Homer is off base and comments to no end that he should feel free to team up with me and start our thread somewhere else and it should be within board guidelines.

I have to read the guidelines tonight to see if they changed for the better. I see no reason for a member to enforce guidelines on another person without suspicion they have been broken. If they have, I would appreciate a member contacting a mod to take care of the assessement in order to lessen a heated argument by the members in question. Though if someone can speak for themselves without conjuring assistance I think it is fine, but it should not get worse. Mods can be hear to be neutral and non opinionated in some sense to help conflicts but that is tricky if mods have invested opinions in a debate.

Anyway there are ways to solve this and i will post ideas later if I don't get bogged down in defending myself in these other threads, or if i do I will try to do the right thing this time and ignore harassement.

And by the way, Brainiac, my comments about mods are objective. I am not even looking and what you are doing or what you have done. I have been off this board for a year until three days ago. Honest. I wouldn't lie. That i promise. And so I have ideas about moderation that moderators may never agree with, but for the spirit of discussion on a discussion board, I will try my luck.

[kalki]

Can I get an explanation of what this topic of anti-Semtisim/Jewish cabals or whatever has to do with GR, Iskcon, or even GV as a whole?

Most of the material within this forum does not have anything to do with GV.

The obvious parallel is that it is taboo to speak out on the psychological abuse and philosophical absurdities within ISKCON. If one speaks out he is labelled as a demon/envious/blasphemer and is understood as being fit only for condemnation. This mirrors what happens when anything Jewish is questioned - even the most blatant atrocities being committed in the name of Israel.

well said

[Prisni]

Can I get an explanation of what this topic of anti-Semtisim/Jewish cabals or whatever has to do with GR, Iskcon, or even GV as a whole?

The obvious parallel is that it is taboo to speak out on the psychological abuse and philosophical absurdities within ISKCON. If one speaks out he is labelled as a demon/envious/blasphemer and is understood as being fit only for condemnation. This mirrors what happens when anything Jewish is questioned - even the most blatant atrocities being committed in the name of Israel.

well said

That was news to me that it is taboo to speak about psychological abuse in ISKCON.
Of course you can.

[kalki]

Can I get an explanation of what this topic of anti-Semtisim/Jewish cabals or whatever has to do with GR, Iskcon, or even GV as a whole?

The obvious parallel is that it is taboo to speak out on the psychological abuse and philosophical absurdities within ISKCON. If one speaks out he is labelled as a demon/envious/blasphemer and is understood as being fit only for condemnation. This mirrors what happens when anything Jewish is questioned - even the most blatant atrocities being committed in the name of Israel.

well said

That was news to me that it is taboo to speak about psychological abuse in ISKCON.
Of course you can.

I am pretty sure he meant that in Iskcon you are shunned to speak out about controversial topics. GR was created to give a home to people who want to speak out without being shunned. So it will be ironic if GR wants to create their own politics of how to shun others when they speak about controversy yet allow only certain ones to be talked about. Then it would be Iskcon revisited which Darwin pointed out maybe a year ago before he went on vacation.

So in my view, if really really really there is a need to censor certain discussions, then I say make it clear in the guidelines and give adequate reasoning and then people can choose to abide or leave out of disgust.

[Prisni]

It is not the subject matter that is in question, it is if a subject matter can be discussed in a civilised way without hurting too many feelings. Here the feelings older members who have been very active are considered more important than newer members.

The reason for that is that if, let's say, some ISKCON fanatic comes here, and gets upset with everything, that is not a cause for quenching a discussion. You have to be a long time active member to be able to be "hurt" by a discussion enough for the subject matter to be "censored".

There is no limitation on subject matters if it is possible to discuss it in a civilised way without hurting the feelings of those here.

[kalki]

Here the feelings older members who have been very active are considered more important than newer members.

If I understand what you are saying here, I don't really agree with it. But I am not sure if you are saying that this is the way it is, fortunately, or unfortunately, or this is the way it is going to be, or this is the way you figure it ought to be. Could you clarify?

If you are saying that this is the way it is, then I agree with you that it seems to be the way it is, but I don't agree it should be that way. I don't like exactly to see that there is extraordinary privilege by anyone, although if someone has been around long enough and would prefer not to discuss matters, then I find that particularly normal as it does work this way in the real world.

The reason for that is that if, let's say, some ISKCON fanatic comes here, and gets upset with everything, that is not a cause for quenching a discussion. You have to be a long time active member to be able to be "hurt" by a discussion enough for the subject matter to be "censored".

This sounds like, if I am not wrong, that you are corroborating that the reason is valid. I don't think the reasoning is reasonable. Iskcon fanatic, is your own label. I would like to see that we are all mature enough to handle a discussion even with a fanatic whether from Iskcon or not. Also, I find it troublesome that you are saying this because I might even carry the reasoning that many long time members that I have not had the best dialgoues with are Iskcon fanatics themselves in many ways. So the tendency to disregard someone's voice is still present although discussions have occurred on throwing away old vocabulary like "kanishta." Just because the words are thrown out, I am not sure that the sentiments have been cast aside. In fact once I objected when one member suggested that he/she was here to teach others a thing or two about the world out of gaudiya. I found it to be hierarchical and objected and an argument ensued upon my sharing of my opinion.

There is no limitation on subject matters if it is possible to discuss it in a civilised way without hurting the feelings of those here.

I agree with this totally, if you mean it. A year ago, I put forth the concept of "what if" someone tried to talk about the topic of Nazi Germany or details of the holocaust. Would it be censored or would it be acceptable to talk about it respectfully without censorship. You responded that you would rather it not be discussed or made a special private thread or something. Am I recalling right? Then I said perhaps some of the rules of forum could be defined to guide what can be done or not. At that time you said you were too new to get into that topic.

So if you have any feedback about what you meant, in the areas I couldn't understand what you meant, please let me know, I am interested. I am still interested in knowing if any guidelines have changed here. I haven't gotten around to checking it out. I guess I will soon.

[babu]

Generally topics where someone seriously projects racial superiority, it is viewed with disdain except for when Bengalis proclaim racial superiority for then it becomes quite humorous.