Basic culture Options

[Gerard]

Gaudeamus, I just found a 2 year old article from the Daily Telegraph about 110 Books for the Perfect Library.

110 Books for the Perfect Library

I think the compiler of that list should first follow Epitau's link to "cultural relativism" before publishing such a list entirely comprised of European and American literature.



(but Conan Doyle is on it though, you see Aran? I told you so! And so are Joyce and Proust of course.)

[Brainiac]

The same thing applies to other media also, like trying to form a list of "essential music", songs or pieces of music that you MUST hear in a lifetime. I couldn't possibly conceive such a thing, because people's music tastes are about as subjective as their literary dispositions.

[Gaudeamus]

Gaudeamus, I just found a 2 year old article from the Daily Telegraph about 110 Books for the Perfect Library.

110 Books for the Perfect Library

I thought it would be interesting to see just how many of these books you think should not be in the Perfect Library?

What if some authority made these books the necessary ones to be read in order to be considered cultured, would you read them in order to be culturally certified?

You know the answer, don't you ?
Certainly not.

Relating to your question: do you remember I was asking you people what your ideas were about which works and authors were recommendable ? Did I hint at any single moment at some dictatorial one-person authority - me or anyone else - setting up and/or enforcing the 'rule' ?

I can reply to your question and make up a list of books I personally don't feel belong on the list, but you would likely reach the wrong conclusion from it, as I see you seem to be prone to do, my repeated attempts at clarifying and explaining notwithstanding.

Many of the books at the link you gave would however probably be on the list. They are mentioned for a reason, and that is their literary or educative value.

[Gaudeamus]

The same thing applies to other media also, like trying to form a list of "essential music", songs or pieces of music that you MUST hear in a lifetime. I couldn't possibly conceive such a thing, because people's music tastes are about as subjective as their literary dispositions.

There is nothing you MUST hear as far as I am concerned, Brainiac.
Personal taste is indeed extremely diverse.
But again, this is not about taste.
If I were to ask you: "do you know Bach's 'Toccata and Fugue', do you like it", and you replied, "never heard of that, who's Bach" you could safely be assumed to be somewhat less cultured than if you replied, 'Bach's Toccata ? Oh yes, I play it myself on the piano !'
It would make a difference, wouldn't it ?
And besides, you would earn my respect if you replied the second way.

[Kalisurfer]

Relating to your question: do you remember I was asking you people what your ideas were about which works and authors were recommendable ? Did I hint at any single moment at some dictatorial one-person authority - me or anyone else - setting up and/or enforcing the 'rule' ?

This is your quote, "Firstly, there is no panel consisting of older men without a brain cortex to dictate you what you have to read. It's just me."

I can reply to your question and make up a list of books I personally don't feel belong on the list, but you would likely reach the wrong conclusion from it, as I see you seem to be prone to do, my repeated attempts at clarifying and explaining notwithstanding.

It is interesting in reading your posts and seeing how anyone who disagrees with you is always considered wrong, as you say I am prone to do, which would then make you always ... what ... right? It seems that there is little reason to hold an online discussion with someone who does not answer most of the questions put toward them, while in response is always telling the other person they are wrong.

Many of the books at the link you gave would however probably be on the list. They are mentioned for a reason, and that is their literary or educative value.

The point that I and many others have been saying is that there is no demarcation line to where the list should or could end, or who would be in charge of making the list. You would serve yourself well in reading ePiTau's link concerning Cultural Relativism.

[Kalisurfer]

Personal taste is indeed extremely diverse.
But again, this is not about taste.

Then what is it about?

If I were to ask you: "do you know Bach's 'Toccata and Fugue', do you like it", and you replied, "never heard of that, who's Bach" you could safely be assumed to be somewhat less cultured than if you replied, 'Bach's Toccata ? Oh yes, I play it myself on the piano !'
It would make a difference, wouldn't it ?

What if you were asked do you know the work the Flamenco guitar master Vicente Gomez? What if you were asked if you knoew the work of Egyptian singer Umm Kulthum, whom when she died, 4 million people lined the streets of Cairo for her funeral procession, how would you answer? What if you were asked if you where familiar with composer and performer Fela Kuti from Nigeria, or how about Indian composer A.R. Rahman, or just what influence Ornette Coleman has on jazz and what styles did he originate?

If you knew the answers that would be fine, and if not, then you could learn about them, so the culturedness of a person seems relative to their age, experience, education, location and passions in life.

And besides, you would earn my respect if you replied the second way

So you would disrespect someone if they did not know Bach's 'Toccata'?

[Gaudeamus]

Relating to your question: do you remember I was asking you people what your ideas were about which works and authors were recommendable ? Did I hint at any single moment at some dictatorial one-person authority - me or anyone else - setting up and/or enforcing the 'rule' ?

This is your quote, "Firstly, there is no panel consisting of older men without a brain cortex to dictate you what you have to read. It's just me."

Yes, it's my quote. The only problem is in the way you choose to intrepret it.
I did not say "It's just me, I am the dictator dictating people what to read."
But that's what you are claiming.

I can reply to your question and make up a list of books I personally don't feel belong on the list, but you would likely reach the wrong conclusion from it, as I see you seem to be prone to do, my repeated attempts at clarifying and explaining notwithstanding.

It is interesting in reading your posts and seeing how anyone who disagrees with you is always considered wrong, as you say I am prone to do, which would then make you always ... what ... right? It seems that there is little reason to hold an online discussion with someone who does not answer most of the questions put toward them, while in response is always telling the other person they are wrong.

It is interesting to see how familiar you feel. I may have met you on other forums.
You are accusing me of making "anyone who disgrees with me" wrong ? Would you care to explain how I am doing this, Kalisurfer ? It just seems I was right with stating you are likely to reach the wrong conclusions, wasn't I ? You did, by wrongly interpreting my quote to mean something I didn't mean at all.

Many of the books at the link you gave would however probably be on the list. They are mentioned for a reason, and that is their literary or educative value.

The point that I and many others have been saying is that there is no demarcation line to where the list should or could end, or who would be in charge of making the list. You would serve yourself well in reading ePiTau's link concerning Cultural Relativism.

You are saying you and many others have been saying 'there is no demarcation line to where the list should or could end'. But did *I* say there is one, at any moment ? Or did you dream it up, Kalisurfer ?

[Kalisurfer]

You are saying you and many others have been saying 'there is no demarcation line to where the list should or could end'. But did *I* say there is one, at any moment ? Or did you dream it up, Kalisurfer ?

My dreams are much more pleasant than that, but you have been talking and talking about a list of books that would deem a person cultured, so to make such a list, it has to have a starting point and an end, which ultimately would leave books off, causing disagreements and no consensus toward such a list.

[Dhyana]

You are saying you and many others have been saying 'there is no demarcation line to where the list should or could end'. But did *I* say there is one, at any moment ? Or did you dream it up, Kalisurfer ?

My dreams are much more pleasant than that, but you have been talking and talking about a list of books that would deem a person cultured, so to make such a list, it has to have a starting point and an end, which ultimately would leave books off, causing disagreements and no consensus toward such a list.

I second that. Now off to sleep.

[Tapati]

There are some books most people will probably agree are basic reading if you want to call yourself educated; and some other books would have to be read if you want to call yourself a real person of culture who knows what's of interest to humanity. Let's not go into religious scripture works, which are another category (or we might just agree that the Holy Scripture of the basic world religions are a part of the latter category anyway, or you might consider that your particular religion's Holy Scripture is the only worthy one).

To take an example: some people might include James Joyce's "Ulysses" in their list. I would not (I didn't read it, BTW - I only know it from its reputation). I don't consider it "basic culture"; it's more something for the really literate and for those for who literature gives them almost everything they want to get out of life, and maybe (in some small way) it is something which gives you status.

But I would - for starters - include a number of biographies, and autobiographies : Gandhi, Casanova, Leibniz... the like. Some highly controversial ones might even have to be included, for culture's and knowledge's sakes.

I would also include the old classics such as Homer, Vergil, Plato, Cicero.... you'd have to restrain your choice to the essentials as there are so many, and it wouldn't be easy. Not to mention mythologies of all kinds, and some very old works which you will certainly find in sacred-texts.com, such as the Vedas and assorted works.

Some works, fundamental to an understanding of human history: the original books about the discovery and conquest of America would be an example. Basically, also books which provide a real understanding of humanity's different cultures.

What would you include in this list ? Do you have any particular titles in mind, or do you disagree with some of my choices ?

I've checked into this topic from time to time and can see where some of the disagreement comes from.

You present a kind of standard, even allowing for disagreement, before you can "call yourself educated; and some other books would have to be read if you want to call yourself a real person of culture who knows what's of interest to humanity."

I suspect that gives the impression that one must conform to this standard if one wants to appear educated or a person of culture to members of the upper class who set these very standards. (Upper class in Western countries, I might add.) Other than some exposure in public school, none of this is relevant to the lives of working class people who are focused more on survival. Even those of us who are fairly well read may not have had time and leisure to peruse the "classics." It may be a noble pursuit; there may be much to learn by doing so--but that doesn't mean we've had the time to devote to the project. We would rankle at the notion that we are therefore not "cultured," whatever that means.

Personally, I have enjoyed most of the sci fi classics and I may think that one is unfortunate to have missed out on them. But I don't expect everyone--or anyone--to share my opinion.

Here are some, for those who might be interested:

http://howtosplitanatom.com/news/32-sci-fi...ou-should-read/

another list:

http://www.listology.com/baker/list/best-b...classic-fiction