Word of honour, Promises and vows Options

[Kalisurfer]

Thank you all for responding; I especially enjoyed posts by Kalisurfer and ananda, but then, I always do (that is, when I can understand them )

Thanks Amberline, FYI, there is a “Deciphering Kali 101” book available in the GR gift shop, Ananda’s comes with an accompanying DVD due to his extensive stays in India and ability to translate Sanskrit, Iskconese, Forumese with its inherent Postmodern Posting Englishese.

[Ananda]

Thanks Amberline, FYI, there is a “Deciphering Kali 101” book available in the GR gift shop, Ananda’s comes with an accompanying DVD due to his extensive stays in India and ability to translate Sanskrit, Iskconese, Forumese with its inherent Postmodern Posting Englishese.

It's actually a multidimensional modular databank encrypted between the microscopic bumps of the DVD, also starring my masterplan for a hostile takeover of major world religions by means of escalated redudance. I am working on a Vulcanese translation and telepathic download options.

[Dhyana]

Thanks Amberline, FYI, there is a “Deciphering Kali 101” book available in the GR gift shop, Ananda’s comes with an accompanying DVD due to his extensive stays in India and ability to translate Sanskrit, Iskconese, Forumese with its inherent Postmodern Posting Englishese.

It's actually a multidimensional modular databank encrypted between the microscopic bumps of the DVD, also starring my masterplan for a hostile takeover of major world religions by means of escalated redudance. I am working on a Vulcanese translation and telepathic download options.

You sound like a rogue Vorlon!

[Ananda]

Yes. In time.

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[zanardi]

Oops! You have already moved on. I am still thinking about this:

Have you ever thought about the importance of staying true to your promises, whether given in- or outside of ISKCon?

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May I come back to it once more? Staying true, as amberline writes above, is what it is all about. Unfortunately that may also result in causing a disappointment to some people, strange as it may sound.

When I left the movement I can clearly remember how some people felt upset/disappointed with my decision. It was as if they felt hurt because I gave up my promises to stay forever in the ranks. First I felt sad for causing a disappointment to others but after awhile I understood what it really was all about. They were upset because of their own sake. It was not about them being worried about my future or anything of that sort. It was their faith that they felt was being violated and by an ex-devotee of all people. Double wham!

Even this question about integrity by your guru falls in the same line of odd, even if understandable, behaviour.

As far as the "the importance of staying true to your promises, whether given in- or outside of Iskcon", I think that is ultimately ruled by the "staying true" (to yourself) part. Staying true to something that is no longer "true" to one, ends up in something horribly artificial and ultimately hypocritical.

I reserve the right to change my opinion of things and my beliefs. I also think that it is not just an human right, but an absolute need to evolve, stay sane or what ever. Those of us who are broadminded do understand and accept it and try to stay true to that, even if it sometimes hurts.

[Tapati]

In the early days I was troubled by going back on my word to Prabhupada. I still idealized him to some degree, even once I no longer believed in all of the doctrines. Eventually I got enough distance from it all to recover from that guilt and realize it was more important to be true to myself and my understanding of reality. It made me wary of taking vows unless I really believed I would follow through, though, and I had a brief period during my engagement to Dave where I got cold feet as I contemplated the enormity of marriage vows. (We wrote some of our own and used some of the traditional version.) I snapped out of it, though, and took another leap of faith, so far with great success.

Looking back I think that a teenager has no business taking lifelong vows, though, so in a legalistic sense I don't believe I should have been allowed to. I currently have strong objections to anyone trying to convert a teenager.

[Dhyana]

As far as the "the importance of staying true to your promises, whether given in- or outside of Iskcon", I think that is ultimately ruled by the "staying true" (to yourself) part. Staying true to something that is no longer "true" to one, ends up in something horribly artificial and ultimately hypocritical.

So true, and well expressed.

Some years into my ISKCON career, when Indradyumna Swami started initiating disciples in Poland, I was very uncomfortable to hear that he asked his disciples to make an additional vow at initiation: to never leave ISKCON. I wondered by what authority he added another vow. But above all, despite all my faith this one spooked me out. If I vow to chant or refrain from certain activity, this vow is about something I do myself. I know in advance, at least moderately well, what kind of life I am vowing to lead.

But to vow to never leave an organization, one I cannot control? What if ISKCON changes, becomes corrupt? What if Krishna himself appears to me in a vision and asks me to? Or whatever.

It smelled of a mafia vow. And an easy way out for the guru.

[Ananda]

But to vow to never leave an organization, one I cannot control? What if ISKCON changes, becomes corrupt? What if Krishna himself appears to me in a vision and asks me to? Or whatever.

I remember a spirited class by Hari Vilasa Das ACBSP in Mayapur in the spring of 1997; "If the GBC orders us to eat hamburgers, I will not leave ISKCON! I will [i]stay in ISKCON and work to repair it from within!"[/i]. This ideology ties in with Prabhupada's "ISKCON is my body; the BBT my heart.", which reminds me of Jesus and "The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." (1 Cor 12:12-14). Suhotra would say on his classes (paraphrasing from a 1997 class I remember) that "We will also have our ISKCON in the spiritual world.". While you were obviously thinking of ISKCON in more mundane terms.

[Strange Pilgrim]

To me, nothing could be more simple: Vaisnava initiations have absolutely no spiritual authenticity or authority at all. Therefore we are under no obligation whatsoever to adhere to the vows.

Isn't that easy?

[Dhyana]

We give our promises not only to God and the guru but also to ourselves. That part takes some soul-searching too.

[Aranesque]

We give our promises not only to God and the guru but also to ourselves. That part takes some soul-searching too.

That's an important factor which, if overlooked or taken lightly, can create havoc in our lives.

Another point - not entirely disengaged from the question of soul-searching - is the phenomena of bigotry and/or small-mindedness: It often appears to me that some devotees move from ISKCON (a movement which positively cultivates the notion of religious superiority) to a philosophically differing, yet attitudinally equally haughty conception of living...

In such cases, has there been any real progress?

[Ananda]

Another point - not entirely disengaged from the question of soul-searching - is the phenomena of bigotry and/or small-mindedness: It often appears to me that some devotees move from ISKCON (a movement which positively cultivates the notion of religious superiority) to a philosophically differing, yet attitudinally equally haughty conception of living...

In such cases, has there been any real progress?

I suppose all that depends on how one defines progress, and what the premises of each individual's attitudes (haughty or otherwise) are. Others picked up from ISKCON (a movement that seeks to make its followers maximally subservient) the attitude of being timid as a tickling blade of grass, and suffer from low self-esteem coupled with constant uncertainty in face of situations where they don't have a big brother to tell which way to put the socks on. I don't think that's a healthy approach to life either.

Better to be an upright individual and have a bit of flavor and flare in what you do, if you ask me. I don't think it's antithetical to being a good human being per se, if that's a measure of progress we choose to go by. At least it holds higher entertainment value to being a minuscule part and parcel sitting quiet in the corner, cultivating timidity and ambivalence; that sort of spirituality is about as appealing as a cold plate of oatmeal to me, nor is it a measure of ego unless you take things at extreme face value. Progress and evolution are not brought about by idealizing pusillanimity.

[Aranesque]

I suppose all that depends on how one defines progress...

What I was trying to say, in my halting, pusillanimous manner, was, to move from one 'faith' wherein one is ignorant of the fact that one's practice is tinged by the psychological need to feel spiritually superior, to another conception that serves (or is distorted to serve) the same purpose, indicates a lack of introspection. That's all.

(Not to detract from the valuable points you raise regarding some of the other consequences of the ISKCON experience.)

[ePiTau]

I propose to replace religious superiority by spiritual superconductivity. Thereby becoming a conduit of the spirit which then flows through one without resistance as it were, like electrons through a superconductor. This is the way, tra-la-la-la, tra-la-la-lera. Good for the environment too. No heat from friction. Can spirit have friction when interacting with the celebrated humans? Looking at today's (and yesterday's) religion it would seem so.

[Ananda]

I propose to replace religious superiority by spiritual superconductivity. Thereby becoming a conduit of the spirit which then flows through one without resistance as it were, like electrons through a superconductor. This is the way, tra-la-la-la, tra-la-la-lera. Good for the environment too. No heat from friction. Can spirit have friction when interacting with the celebrated humans? Looking at today's (and yesterday's) religion it would seem so.

Funny that you should mention resistance, friction and spiritual superconductivity, as all of that has been in works in my little universe for quite some time now, and almost in those very words. On Friction and Performance, first in the series of my Reader's Digest mode writings on the basic elements of smoother existence.

(Is this a coincidence, or have you been spying on my secret websites? )

[Ananda]

What I was trying to say, in my halting, pusillanimous manner, was, to move from one 'faith' wherein one is ignorant of the fact that one's practice is tinged by the psychological need to feel spiritually superior, to another conception that serves (or is distorted to serve) the same purpose, indicates a lack of introspection. That's all.

(Not to detract from the valuable points you raise regarding some of the other consequences of the ISKCON experience.)

I have been seeking for an approach that isolates the personal ego from the functional ego, since the factor of personality is an integral aspect of our existence inasmuch as we intend to interact with anything, its good and evil being a question of our attachment to its particulars, and our inflexibility when the environment forces it to change. I believe most religious traditions share the concept on some level, even while the divide gets obfuscated a tad bit too often when someone's authority is challenged.

For example, where religions tend to emphasize submission, the heart of what submission aims to accomplish is receptivity, but there's a world of difference between the two and their potentials for hazard of every variety. Receptivity is an opennes born of free will, while submission is more often demanded and enforced, and the complications with matters of authority, power, and abuse thereof become much more rampant.

ISKCON (and GV in general) really is a curious mix, as at the same time it seeks to make you humbler than that blade of grass, and at the same time it instills in you this very mood of extreme existential superiority (even while you'll no doubt hear a hundred arguments on how this actually is not so). For me, the whole of the GV world was one strange continuum from ISKCON to GM to babajis of many flavors, and I followed the thread without asking twice if that was the thread I was actually meant to follow.

Breaking that continuum is breaking your long-cultivated mental patterns, and more often than not they just seek to find a new avenue, as the whole model has become deeply ingrained as a part of our being. Even when you cross over the worst of it, the momentum you cultivated with hell-bent determination is still there, and you will see -- such as in my case -- a strange display of fireworks of different flavors. It runs out of its own accord, and the less you fight it one way or another, the more you are in tune with the nature of existence. At least that's how I feel about it.

[ePiTau]

I propose to replace religious superiority by spiritual superconductivity. Thereby becoming a conduit of the spirit which then flows through one without resistance as it were, like electrons through a superconductor. This is the way, tra-la-la-la, tra-la-la-lera. Good for the environment too. No heat from friction. Can spirit have friction when interacting with the celebrated humans? Looking at today's (and yesterday's) religion it would seem so.

Funny that you should mention resistance, friction and spiritual superconductivity, as all of that has been in works in my little universe for quite some time now, and almost in those very words. On Friction and Performance, first in the series of my Reader's Digest mode writings on the basic elements of smoother existence.

(Is this a coincidence, or have you been spying on my secret websites? )

How funny, indeed!
No, I have not been spying on your secret websites. Didn't even know there were any. Coincidences are dangerous. When they occur too densely clustered even sane people can turn believers of sorts in some form or another of meaningful beingness that I presently consider imaginary.

[Ananda]

How funny, indeed!
No, I have not been spying on your secret websites. Didn't even know there were any. Coincidences are dangerous. When they occur too densely clustered even sane people can turn believers of sorts in some form or another of meaningful beingness that I presently consider imaginary.

I suppose we are all products of our times (and an overdose of science fiction), and existence itself has its own course that leads us by the no(o)se onward to wherever the hell it is that things are rolling. Enjoy the ride on the tide, dance with the random phantom, and watch the mirages flow by in the sky; I suppose that's all there is to it at the end of the day when all is said and done, and it's plenty enough as it is.

And that was a serious load of cliché right there. Did you ever notice that cliché is supposedly pronounced klē-ˈshā? Freudo-Aryan linguistic links never fail to amuse.

The less we believe and project, the better off we are, from where I look at the whole dang grand shebang anyway. If there is a meaning to life, I like to think it has to do with the process of natural assimilation and integration of our minds and environments, embedded in the very nature and being of the consciousness we experience.

[ePiTau]

And that was a serious load of cliché right there. Did you ever notice that cliché is supposedly pronounced klē-ˈshā? Freudo-Aryan linguistic links never fail to amuse.

as in ādhibhautika-kleśāḥ ?
the Vedic pain cliché according to which we all suffer ?
and if we didn't know we were suffering we suffered from that ignorance ?
(the not knowing about one's suffering is deep ignorance). there you have it.

[Ananda]

as in ādhibhautika-kleśāḥ ?
the Vedic pain cliché according to which we all suffer ?
and if we didn't know we were suffering we suffered from that ignorance ?
(the not knowing about one's suffering is deep ignorance). there you have it.

As a matter of fact I was thinking more along the lines of the nAstika-klezA, emanating from an unwholesome root and appropriately englished as defilements that smear one's bodily and mental states, but the Vedic version is also a veritable ArSyepiThau when push comes to shove. As for the darkness of ignorance, it's natural when one is covered over and deep in the material condition.