Word of honour, Promises and vows Options

[amberline]

I put this topic here on purpose, because it's something I've been thinking about outside faith boundaries, although the incentive came from my guru's last letter in which he asks me (paraphrased) how can I live knowing that I gave life-long vows which I decided to break. I must admit I didn't really have any sleepless nights over that one, but I was wondering if you felt that you had in any way damaged your own integrity by going against your word (that you will chant 16 rounds, or whatever)? Have you ever thought about the importance of staying true to your promises, whether given in- or outside of ISKCon?

(If I'm not being articulate enough, please ask for clarification.)

[Gerard]

I never had much qualms about dropping some of them, as I saw vows as promises to try to live up to them, nothing more.

[Prisni]

I personally consider that my guru dissolved the vows when he "fell down" and dissolved his end of them. And good is that.

It makes me wonder, are not the vows two-directional , that the guru also have to follow some promises, or are they considered one way?

If the guru does not follow properly, and advance properly, or does not teach or care for you properly, are you still considered to follow everything he says?

Some sit on the high horses and say - you should follow ME!
Me: Why?
Sannyasi: Because I have superior knowledge.
Me: Ok, tell me about Radha the Goddess?
Sannyasi: Humph, umph, I don't know her.
Me: So why then should I follow you? What do you have to say to me?
Sannyasi: Prabhupada said....
Me: Prabhupada gave Radha and Krishna, what do you give?
Sannyasi: I give Krishna consciousness
Me: How about Radha the goddess?
Sannyasi: That is too advanced topic (for me)
Me: Ok, then I go to someone else who knows, since Radha is my goddess, and I have no obediance, no honor but to her.

[amberline]

Well, Prinsi, as much as I do understand your point, it never really happened to me. My guru is still "bonafide" and he always gave all the knowledge which I asked from him. (Admittedly, I never went into discussing madhurya-rasa or more "confidential" knowledge, because it was never important for me.)

Also, I don't think that my word of honour has much to do with the other party. It was my decision, and my promise. I can say I was young, inexperienced, unaware of what lay before me -- but these are all excuses. The fact is, I made a promise which I couldn't keep, and nobody forced me to either give it or break it. Just like marriage. I gave my word to stay with the person for the duration of this life, and although I consider now that such promises are preposterous in the today's world, the fact remains - if I go contrary to the promise, it does harm my integrity in some way. Or does it? I've certainly been taught it does, both by my culture and by ISKCon, and so I am now left wondering: were all these people wrong? Or is there a certain power in staying true to your word after all?

[Prisni]

Well, Prinsi, as much as I do understand your point, it never really happened to me. My guru is still "bonafide" and he always gave all the knowledge which I asked from him. (Admittedly, I never went into discussing madhurya-rasa or more "confidential" knowledge, because it was never important for me.)

I don't agree with that female is an advanced or "confidential" subject matter.
Sannyasi men in celibate should NOT speak about women, about females, that is the restriction. So of course they will call every subject matter in any way linked with the female as undiscussable. For them to discuss Radha and the gopis, they have to almost completely transcend the material platform, to not fall down from their celibacy.
So if they don't, they are obviously not advanced so far.

When we move away from the patriarchic society of medieval and yesterday's India, and slowly into the modern world, the picture becomes different. In the west we MUST speak about Radha. That is also something none of the big major religions deal with, or even know about. The origin and truth of the feminine, and the divine feminine. It is there GV is practically almost unique. To learn about father God, there are so many religions to choose from, but to learn about mother God, where do you go? ISKCON missed that train.
They are nowadays mostly into about money and bank-account god.

[zanardi]

This was an interesting question. Is it not so, that once again, this whole dilemma is up to how ones faith has survived?

If I really would believe that an almighty personality is deeply and utterly horrified about me eating garlic or drinking coffee or what not, this certainly should result in me doing something about these issues. Most certainly I would feel disgusted with myself if I also had vowed to follow some certain rules and regulations and had given them up, just like that, out of weakness of willpower or something.

Personally, I do not have that kind of faith anymore. Good grief and thank God!

[ePiTau]

since god cannot simultaneously be omnipotent and omniscient I feel keeping vows is a waste of time

[Milla]

My understanding is that Krishna understands when the situation changes. I don't know how to deal best with a guru in good standing, it probably depends on the person, but there must be a way to undo or change the vows with integrity.

[Dhyana]

I put this topic here on purpose, because it's something I've been thinking about outside faith boundaries, although the incentive came from my guru's last letter in which he asks me (paraphrased) how can I live knowing that I gave life-long vows which I decided to break. I must admit I didn't really have any sleepless nights over that one, but I was wondering if you felt that you had in any way damaged your own integrity by going against your word (that you will chant 16 rounds, or whatever)? Have you ever thought about the importance of staying true to your promises, whether given in- or outside of ISKCon?

(If I'm not being articulate enough, please ask for clarification.)

Interesting question!

I broke one of the principles while still a bhaktin. I took the principles literally -- not that one was supposed to just try one's best -- so I waited a few years before taking initiation. But after a while the problem came back. I was convinced this would be holding me back from making progress and destroying any bhakti I might develop. I prayed, renewed my promises, I was scared and desperate. I won't say I couldn't have tried harder, maybe I could. But I tried very hard. After a while I just couldn't beg for forgiveness and help with the same sincerity any longer. God's silence got louder.

To me, the vows were a means to a goal. I felt the no sex principle was impossible to follow and that the struggle was taking me further away from my goal. Instead of becoming a more loving person, I became a more fearful, irritable and sour one. I thought God must have a solution to situations like this.

When I still had faith in Krishna, I thought that maybe this path is just not for me, maybe there is some karma holding me back, maybe I have do do something else to get purified before I can follow KC.

It was similar with the 16 rounds. My last couple of years in ISKCON I always had a dozen or so rounds to catch up with. My morning sadhana could be better, but also I had a vocal chord problem that made me a slow chanter.

In the end I hated the rounds and decided it could only be better for my KC if I dropped the 16 rounds requirement and just chanted what I managed. That worked fine for a while. Meanwhile more beliefs got reassessed and more vows were dropped.

I never believed I would get eternally damned or be forever failed by breaking the vows.

[amberline]

Thank you all for your thoughts, but I guess I do need to clarify a bit since most of the comments actually go opposite of what I originally had in mind.

The question was not about giving or breaking vows in the context of faith, or religion, or God, or anything metaphysical. That's why I put it here, in Freedom From Faith.
Perhaps I put it wrongly -- or mentioning my guru had something to do with the confusion -- but my reflection on the topic goes more in the direction of personal development. By that, I mean that presently I do not worry one bit about what any transcendent-and-potentially-non-existing-or-not-caring-one bit being has to say on the matter. I do worry about my own integrity -- the fact that I made a huge promise, but quit without the intention to ever fulfill it. I worry about somehow damaging myself, my own self-esteem as a human being, by giving such pompous vows, and then cowarding out (or, better still, running away for dear life).

Hope this somewhat clears my intentions with the topic. Please do keep replying.

[Aranesque]

I, by nature, am somewhat dutiful (a rather old-fashioned mode of being, I know), and (if I'm honest) feel, at times, a certain sense of, I wouldn't exactly call it 'guilt', but, perhaps, non-completion regarding the abandonment of some of the more personal instructions I received from my Gurus...

Curiously, I have not strayed too far from the simple vows that I took upon my shoulders all those years ago, despite the alterations to my path. Such things help to maintain a modicum of sanity in my life.

I believe it is fully possible to be both a compassionate human being, and to 'live by vow'.

Of course, if one insists on drawing only on the ISKCON experiment...

[Kalisurfer]

The question was not about giving or breaking vows in the context of faith, or religion, or God, or anything metaphysical. That's why I put it here, in Freedom From Faith.
Perhaps I put it wrongly -- or mentioning my guru had something to do with the confusion -- but my reflection on the topic goes more in the direction of personal development. By that, I mean that presently I do not worry one bit about what any transcendent-and-potentially-non-existing-or-not-caring-one bit being has to say on the matter. I do worry about my own integrity -- the fact that I made a huge promise, but quit without the intention to ever fulfill it. I worry about somehow damaging myself, my own self-esteem as a human being, by giving such pompous vows, and then cowarding out (or, better still, running away for dear life).

Hope this somewhat clears my intentions with the topic. Please do keep replying.

Great introspective question Amberline! This question does seem to involve the issue of self-integrity, ethics and morality. Just how honest and true to our word are we, both to ourselves and to others?

The promise you are referring to seems to be about the one made to our initiating guru about following the 4 regulatory principles and chanting 16 rounds, then changing our minds about following these rules and the greater faith it is contained within, and how making that change effects our view of ourselves as honest individuals, and perhaps our individual sense of integrity, ethics and morality.

This is so heavily tied to our worldview and beliefs at any given time in our lives, and when those worldviews and beliefs change due to personal reflection based on further growth in knowledge, maturity and experience, then it makes sense that we will not follow a former belief and all its inherent rules and regulations.

The first vow we should always have is being true and honest to our self, for following and believing something out of past obligations that do not ring true anymore can be as much or more harmful to ones well-being as making a break with past promises.

The world and nature is so full of change, so it seems rather natural that our minds and thoughts are as capable of the same change as the seasons and the time of day. We can’t hold on to March 5th at 7pm forever, for life is in constant movement and change, which includes us as human being too.

Our minds are extremely powerful; thoughts can create wondrous things or can destroy just as well. If we believe that a promise based on spiritual belief is eternal and incapable of change, then we will feel regret, a sense of betrayal and a reduced sense of self-esteem. If we believe that our personal beliefs and worldviews change with time according to our personal growth as individuals, then we are more flexible and understanding that we cannot hold on to things that do not serve us anymore. We have to give ourselves some toleration and room to grow in life, which allows for change without guilt.

Perhaps thanking our past and all those individuals within it for the lessons and experiences we have had is a good way to say goodbye and move on. Leaving our past with regrets and bad feelings seems to just leave baggage that we have to carry in the back of our minds and hearts, debilitating the new realizations and knowledge coming our way. I have a hard time seeing change in our beliefs as cowardly for leaving the old ones behind, no more than I should feel guilty for leaving footprints in the sand of a beach as I walk through it, for the wind and waves will eventually wash my footprints away, they won't stay there forever, just as my past beliefs, vows and promises are washed away through the force of nature that is our own mental, physical and meta-physical selves.

We have to remain flexible, warm and loving to ourselves too, though it may sound corny to some and rather new-agey in some respects, I’ve yet to find a better alternative dealing with the past, especially concerning vows, personalities and institutions that just do not fit my personal belief and world-views anymore.

[Ananda]

As I see it, vows are intrinsically tied to their context, and have no validity or scope of existence beyond their environment. When the context dissolves, the vows have no basis, and as such have little impact on your internal integrity. It would in fact be contrary to your integrity if you were to insist on such vows after discovering issues that bring the entire basis of the said vows into question. Integrity is nothing but being honest to the reality you face and experience, and evolution is an integral part of our existence.

This of course also brings into question the entire concept of taking lifelong or eternal vows; they are harmful for your progressive evolution, as they lock you into a box from which you have no escape, and no prospects beyond. I consider it no different than signing an illegal contract that ties you up for the rest of your life, restricting your options and curtailing your natural potentials as an evolving individual.

There's also the fact that a choice and a commitment must be a duly informed and a realistic one, not something you were led into accepting under the premises of attaining spiritual goals that are hardly delivered. Basically the ISKCON 4/16 contract was piggy-backed into our lives under the claim that it was the only means to make spiritual progress. As most of us have discovered, that was a rather misleading marketing line there, and in fact a blatant even if possibly inadvertent lie. If you become the victim of misleading marketing by a company, it's generally the company whose integrity is called into question.

While someone may have given the contract for you to sign in good faith and with the best of intentions, the entire agreement was ill-founded to begin with. Moreover if it turns out that holding up your end of the bargain can actually end up damaging you both physically and psychologically (vocal chord damage, prostrate cancer, malnutrition, chronic stress, psychosis, etc.), I don't see why breaking such vows should have any impact on your personal integrity whatsoever. In my view, upholding an illegitimate contract is antithetical to your personal integrity.

I notice that Kalisurfer has said much of the same in slightly different words.

[Dhyana]

Thank you all for your thoughts, but I guess I do need to clarify a bit since most of the comments actually go opposite of what I originally had in mind.

The question was not about giving or breaking vows in the context of faith, or religion, or God, or anything metaphysical. That's why I put it here, in Freedom From Faith.
Perhaps I put it wrongly -- or mentioning my guru had something to do with the confusion -- but my reflection on the topic goes more in the direction of personal development. By that, I mean that presently I do not worry one bit about what any transcendent-and-potentially-non-existing-or-not-caring-one bit being has to say on the matter. I do worry about my own integrity -- the fact that I made a huge promise, but quit without the intention to ever fulfill it. I worry about somehow damaging myself, my own self-esteem as a human being, by giving such pompous vows, and then cowarding out (or, better still, running away for dear life).

Hope this somewhat clears my intentions with the topic. Please do keep replying.

I didn't read your original question carefully enough. If a promise is given in full sincerity and after due consideration, and if it is then broken after one has come to understand it was better to break it, then breaking it cannot do any harm to one's integrity. Rather keeping it would be harmful. (I am not talking of vows taken to protect someone, for example committing oneself to one's children.)

What a broken vow can damage is perhaps our underlying belief in a world of no change, where things that were once good will always be good. It may also damage one's belief in one's own unchanging identity. To realize that I once thought and felt so differently, means I have on some level become a different person. It also means I cannot be too sure of what I presently hold for true and good. It can damage one's trust and make us more reluctant to commit again. Our old identity and worldview disintegrate, making space for new ones. It is not bad. It is a challenge. Positive disintegration.

[Dhyana]

As I see it, vows are intrinsically tied to their context, and have no validity or scope of existence beyond their environment. When the context dissolves, the vows have no basis, and as such have little impact on your internal integrity. It would in fact be contrary to your integrity if you were to insist on such vows after discovering issues that bring the entire basis of the said vows into question. Integrity is nothing but being honest to the reality you face and experience, and evolution is an integral part of our existence.

This of course also brings into question the entire concept of taking lifelong or eternal vows; they are harmful for your progressive evolution, as they lock you into a box from which you have no escape, and no prospects beyond. I consider it no different than signing an illegal contract that ties you up for the rest of your life, restricting your options and curtailing your natural potentials as an evolving individual.

That's how I feel too.

Moreover if it turns out that holding up your end of the bargain can actually end up damaging you both physically and psychologically (vocal chord damage, prostrate cancer,

Prostrate cancer -- a very contextually meaningful slip of the tongue...

[Ananda]

Prostrate cancer -- a very contextually meaningful slip of the tongue...

And I forgot to add that prolonged prostrate cancer can lead to brain paralysis and give rise to uncontrolled desires of autolobotomization.

[ePiTau]

Taking a wow sometimes involves wanting something in return. The Maha-Bharata and the Puranas tell lots of great wow stories. It is sooooo eulogized there. Remember Gandhari of the MBh? That chick blindfolded (blind-fondled?) herself and got this super powerful blessings heap piled up on herself. Later she asked Duryodhana dude to come before her with his pants down. In any case, wows are a great way to make one believe one deserves rewards. Of course, other people are seen getting rewards too, without keeping wows. Karma, what else. They just deplete their good karma. But the great keepers of wows reap piles of rewards. Keeping one's wows can also make one feel good and self-righteous. As if one were in control, à la The Triumph of Will as celebrated by Leni for Adolph.

[zanardi]

But the great keepers of wows reap piles of rewards.

If nothing else, one can develope some interesting patterns of compulsive obsessive thoughts and ways to act. Been there done that.

[ePiTau]

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[amberline]

Ecstatic Free E-Course
Study Krishna consciousness under the guidance of a bona fide guru.
www.backtohome.com

Good one!

Thank you all for responding; I especially enjoyed posts by Kalisurfer and ananda, but then, I always do (that is, when I can understand them )
I was thinking somewhere along those lines, but not with such clarity.

And this is something I definitely will think more about,

What a broken vow can damage is perhaps our underlying belief in a world of no change, where things that were once good will always be good.