Invited to small devotee gatherings, Advice? Options

[zvs]

As many of you know, I am very, very uncomfortable in small groups of devotees.

I recently was invited to make a return trip to New Vrindaban with two very close friends who I feel entirely comfortable with. Furthermore, we planned to go during a festival where I could disappear in the crowd if need be. Considering that I once considered the place like home, I've always wanted to visit again, and try to reconcile how strange it is to be so far from that time in my life. However, scheduling conflicts seem to have caused those plans to fall through.

And now, in lieu of those plans, I am being invited by other devotees to attend some small gatherings. They are friends of mine, and I like them a lot, but I'm honestly not sure I can get through something like that - an intimate setting where my voice is clearly heard, where people are watching me, where people can see what I'm doing (or NOT doing), where I'm surrounded by people who all hold beliefs that I no longer share with them.

Have any of you faced similar problems? How did you handle it?

[Homer]

Have any of you faced similar problems? How did you handle it?

My approach is to be very open and honest. I have often been surprised to have my honesty returned in good measure by someone I least expected to share my views and sentiments.

[Apres Laulyam]

Have any of you faced similar problems? How did you handle it?

My approach is to be very open and honest. I have often been surprised to have my honesty returned in good measure by someone I least expected to share my views and sentiments.

I have found the same.

[zvs]

My approach is to be very open and honest. I have often been surprised to have my honesty returned in good measure by someone I least expected to share my views and sentiments.

That's what I fear: I know these matters are of the utmost sensitivity and would not want to offend someone I consider a friend, lest they take it too hard, and it affects our friendships.

Did you (and A.L.) stay away?

[Gerard]

My approach is to be very open and honest. I have often been surprised to have my honesty returned in good measure by someone I least expected to share my views and sentiments.

That's what I fear: I know these matters are of the utmost sensitivity and would not want to offend someone I consider a friend, lest they take it too hard, and it affects our friendships.

Did you (and A.L.) stay away?

I found it best to stay away at small gatherings when all people share beliefs that I do not share anymore with them. You have to and want to be very careful not to offend anybody and that is difficult because the fact that you are ex-HK implies criticism of HK otherwise you wouldn't be ex.

Later, groups were formed which were mixed, people from different guru's and with different beliefs and that led to some very nice kirtans with a very good meditative atmosphere. More inwardly directed meditation while hard-core HK always have their meditation directed outwardly.

But these groups are hard to find and they don't last long in my experience.

[Homer]

My approach is to be very open and honest. I have often been surprised to have my honesty returned in good measure by someone I least expected to share my views and sentiments.

That's what I fear: I know these matters are of the utmost sensitivity and would not want to offend someone I consider a friend, lest they take it too hard, and it affects our friendships.

Did you (and A.L.) stay away?

If by staying away you mean avoiding devotee contact, I only do so due to my lack of interest in having my eternal soul saved from hell. Otherwise, I relate to devotees as I would anyone else, except that a few devotees are dear to me; not because they are worshippers of the Hindu Gods, but because I like them as individuals, even if some of them are more like herded sheep than free sparrows.

[amberline]

I've been planning to add a post here for ages, so I'm sorry if it's not as important anymore...

Personally, I attend such gatherings only when they are organized by my good friends with whom I can be easy-going, and for whom I know that bhajans are about as far as mention of KC will get. I would not even dream of going to gatherings which are philosophy-oriented, or attended by the hard-cores, but I do enjoy socializing with people who have been my friends or acquaintances for a long time, and are not pushy, or are themselves "on the edge".

[metamorphosis]

We had a nice gathering too, with local Hare's. Face to face it was always great. But then one member joined this site, and although hates Iskcon Prabhupada you name it, just could not tolerate our views, and condemned us over and over! So much for that nice gathering we had

[zvs]

I've been planning to add a post here for ages, so I'm sorry if it's not as important anymore...

Personally, I attend such gatherings only when they are organized by my good friends with whom I can be easy-going, and for whom I know that bhajans are about as far as mention of KC will get. I would not even dream of going to gatherings which are philosophy-oriented, or attended by the hard-cores, but I do enjoy socializing with people who have been my friends or acquaintances for a long time, and are not pushy, or are themselves "on the edge".

I suppose it still is important, because I never did reconcile this internally and have continued to avoid devotee gatherings.

These people are my friends, and were once very close friends. The problem is with one of them specifically... He's the one that organizes most of the get-togethers, and ironically is also the one with whom I had the closest, most personal friendship. Every time we happen to talk, I am never taken at my own terms. I feel there is no desire to know me as I currently/really am. The conversation inevitably ends up here: "So, have you chanted at all in the recent past? Oh man, I tell you, Prabhupada was right. Just do a few rounds a day, I'm sure it'll be good for you!" I know this is well-intentioned, but it breaks my heart.

The gatherings generally involve some sort of singing followed by some sort of (informal) philosophy. I am certain that I would either (1) be asked to lead a bhajan/kirtan, which I used to often do, or (2) find myself pointed out or focused on, or, even worse, asked about my current state of mind.

[Ananda]

It's tricky because their worlds are so easily challenged, and their lifestyle and ideology so fundamentally reactionary and non-accommodating.

Wherever there are "serious" devotees around, you have to either "play interested" with them as they go about giving their "helpful" suggestions (or "encouraging" you in the cleverest and transparentest ways), or be a shameless mayavadi karmi who just doesn't give a flying haribol about their educative opinions.

It takes its time to wean ourselves from the emotional dependence we had/have with the whole devotee world and the baggage that comes with the deal, and only then will you feel actually solid in such situations, regardless of whatever you may be. In a way, allowing oneself to feel intimidated or discomforted by devotee association is to still be in its grip and under its control.

As far as friendships based on KC go, they are about as sublime and long-lasting as marriages based on KC. Most things KC don't last, because always Hari Harasses nama krishna yadavadamamama, as evidenced in Vedic scriptures.

[amberline]

It's tricky because their worlds are so easily challenged, and their lifestyle and ideology so fundamentally reactionary and non-accommodating.

Wherever there are "serious" devotees around, you have to either "play interested" with them as they go about giving their "helpful" suggestions (or "encouraging" you in the cleverest and transparentest ways), or be a shameless mayavadi karmi who just doesn't give a flying haribol about their educative opinions.

I agree. This is why I avoid the "serious" ones. I would not go to to gatherings that expected me talking about or engaging in KC stuff, apart from taking part in bhajans (not leading, though). Actually, I would not go to large gatherings unless I was absolutely sure I could just hang around without being drawn into it all again.

It takes its time to wean ourselves from the emotional dependence we had/have with the whole devotee world and the baggage that comes with the deal, and only then will you feel actually solid in such situations, regardless of whatever you may be. In a way, allowing oneself to feel intimidated or discomforted by devotee association is to still be in its grip and under its control.

Agreed. But it need not be intimidation or discomfort. At least in my case, the thing is that I am simply not interested in these things any more, and so would be a wet blanket in gatherings other than those I had described. They don't scare me, but bore me. Perhaps I acquired a "higher" taste of my own?

As far as friendships based on KC go, they are about as sublime and long-lasting as marriages based on KC.

I wanted to disagree because I have at least two or three wonderful and sincere friendships with devotees, and my marriage has been working out nicely, but then I figured out that you are actually right: they were not based on KC, they only happened while I was trying to be KC. They are really based on common human values such as trust, open-mindedness, caring for others, helping in need, lack of pretense, etc. -- none of which I found in ISKCon.

Sorry to snip up your post

[ras]

It's all for eating and paying lip-service to the yada-yadava.

Sociality = superficiality

[zanardi]

I have not been invited to either small or big devotee gatherings. If there was an ex-devotee gathering, I have a feeling there was no problem whatsoever. Indeed, we had one some months ago. We had a hoot while trying to remember and perform some of the most enlivening kirtan routines. Maybe some one would have seen it as blasphemous? I disagree. It was fun.

[metamorphosis]

Not blasphemous but Dovetailing to be KC.

[amberline]

I have not been invited to either small or big devotee gatherings. If there was an ex-devotee gathering, I have a feeling there was no problem whatsoever.

Perhaps it depends on who you hang out with. Since my husband is (still) a devotee, I am often invited with him, so this is an issue with me.

If it weren't the case, I don't think I would personally choose to attend ex-devotee gatherings. One reason is, I don't really like the people who joined ISKCon here, and most of those who left are another generation anyway. I would have no common topics with them, either in a "spiritual" sense (we joined two rather different ISKCon's) or in a material one. The other reason is, although it is nice to meet people with similar past experiences, I want to build my identity on something different than being an "ex" whatever. (This is also why I feel a simultaneous attraction to and reluctance about participating in this forum.)

[tulasi]

I'm not an ex Hare Krishna, and I still consider myself an aspiring devotee of Krishna, but I do have a problem with small gatherings, because they tend to be so suffocating. I have lost faith in the purity of the current Iskcon gurus, and consider only Srila Prabhupada truly worthy of my worship. Most of the devotees who go to these gatherings are canvassing for or aspiring to one or other unqualified guru. So I have to be always very careful not to say anything which will offend (I find smiling silently tends to work best). But it's such a strain! I don't enjoy it at all, so usually don't end up going.

Also, there are devotees who somehow want to find fault with me (easy, since I have so many) - possibly because they sense something different about me. A few started a rumour campaign that I'd become a disciple of Narayana Maharaj, which is laughable, since I have absolutely no aspirations in that direction.

But it made me sad for a time. I got a phone call at home from the GBC of our country, who had barely spoken to me before (despite my serving faithfully for so many years). He tactfully opened with the words, "They're saying you joined Narayan Maharaj." Hmmm. Of course, he couldn't define who the mysterious "they" were. Another few months went by, then our temple chairman calls at the crack of dawn to ask me a "few questions." Had flashbacks of the Gestapo.

Anyway, now things seem to be forgotten, and I'm back at the Sunday program again. But won't attend small gatherings unless I'm ready for some rough and tumble - as I don't think I'll be able to remain silent for much longer.

[Tapati]

The other reason is, although it is nice to meet people with similar past experiences, I want to build my identity on something different than being an "ex" whatever. (This is also why I feel a simultaneous attraction to and reluctance about participating in this forum.)

I think most of us here feel that having been in the Hare Krishna Movement is just one small part of who we are or were. There are many components of identity. I would identify myself as a sci fi reader before I'd identify myself as ex-Hare Krsna. If I weren't writing a memoir that incidentally deals with it I'd barely talk or write about it at all--and for many years, didn't.

However, that said, it's been good to be around people who get my references to that period of my life. Those were pivotal years that had serious consequences for the remainder of my life, since I married and had children during those years. If you haven't been there you can't understand it fully. It's refreshing to talk to people who "get it."

[zanardi]

If you haven't been there you can't understand it fully. It's refreshing to talk to people who "get it."

Fully agree. That was a pukka statement, if any.

[amberline]

I got a phone call at home from the GBC of our country, who had barely spoken to me before (despite my serving faithfully for so many years). He tactfully opened with the words, "They're saying you joined Narayan Maharaj." Hmmm. Of course, he couldn't define who the mysterious "they" were. Another few months went by, then our temple chairman calls at the crack of dawn to ask me a "few questions." Had flashbacks of the Gestapo.

I know it's off topic, but I just wanted to write it somewhere: I actually wrote a letter to our GBC about my leaving, so that he hears it from me first since I feel some connection to him -- doing personal service, and chatting a lot, and he also knows my husband well... and guess what? He did not even think it important enough to answer. So much for a personal religion

[Dhyana]

So I have to be always very careful not to say anything which will offend (I find smiling silently tends to work best).

Good strategy, but yes, undoubtedly a strain.

I got a phone call at home from the GBC of our country, who had barely spoken to me before (despite my serving faithfully for so many years). He tactfully opened with the words, "They're saying you joined Narayan Maharaj." Hmmm. Of course, he couldn't define who the mysterious "they" were. Another few months went by, then our temple chairman calls at the crack of dawn to ask me a "few questions." Had flashbacks of the Gestapo.

AWFUL.