Critical Krishna Options

[Apres Laulyam]

Following from the idea of 'delusions' and 'shared worlds', and Brainiac's reasoning 'So I guess that's how I see it, the extent of "interference" in a wider circle than the individual's normal life is something that would make me suspect that the boundaries of "normal" religion are being transgressed into an area that may cause some form of danger. I think both atheist and religious psychiatrists would agree on that?'

I've sometimes thought of modern psychiatrists as being 'secular priests'. Imagine the conundrum, say, of an 'ex-dovotee', coming to a psychiatrist and saying 'I've just left a world, a world where when I was in it, all 'players' agreed on fundamental aspects of inclusion, and we even agreed upon a view of how and why the 'outsiders' were 'outside'. But now I am 'outside' also, and I want to ditch the whole framework, and inhabit a different world, but I am smashed up, and don't know how to do it sanely.' It seems that this point of 'transgression' and 'danger' amounts in part to an individual being able to 'play a game' in which the larger community sets parameters of At LEAST inadmissable physical harm, and a modicum of responsibility. If I am a mendicant, and talk about throwing away all my worldly wealth, and owning only a rice bowl, and only reading scripture, or if I am a revolutionary, and chain myself to the Pentagon's gates, and protest war, (which comes across as 'insane' to some), as long as I am capable of accepting responsibility for my actions, I can CHOOSE which story-line I want to participate in, no matter how it intersects with other story-lines playing out at the same time.

I can't really speak well about Krsna's lila, (playing!!), or whether he succeeds in complete delusion or not. That is beyond my ken. My understanding was always that if he has supreme power then he can 'pretend' to lose, or win, or be woo'd outside of his comprehension or ability to resist, and that his 'pretending' is somehow absolute, which puts him simaltaneously in the position of a mere mortal, but still comprehending all the while, but BEING 'as if he forgot himself' and his powers. That HIS 'pretending' was a lollapalooza, a fiat.

But for some of us who leave worlds, this breaking of our fundamental 'frame of reference' is not fun! You want to talk about 'danger', we have willingly stept from one danger, to another! Sure, we got jobs, we got families, we got a tribe and the right costumes and language, but we are familiar with another 'game'. As long as we don't go around hurling ourselves in front of traffic, as long as we can fill out forms and join a 'main stream', we can play as 'sane'. But once having entered another world, for some of us there remains a niggling doubt, that these are all but story-lines, and we, actors. That our frames of reference remain (and here maybe I am speaking only for myself) permeable, unsure.

Does that make sense?

[Brainiac]

Does that make sense?

Yep, and it puts me in mind of Shakespeare's famous "All the world's a stage" quote where everyone is playing their parts.

Sometimes I do wonder about ex-cult support and how much resources are out there to support people who have left a cult, any cult, and how their different experiences of various gurus/leaders, spiritual practices and general quality of life have many things in common. I feel a great compassion for people who have left a cult and who are finding their way anew, broken-hearted and not knowing where to turn (I've been through it too, several times). I want to help them but I don't know how to. It is difficult to deal with people whose world and dreams have shattered and they find it difficult to make sense of their experience and how to make a new life. Some people turn out clinically depressed, while others turn to drinking, drug-taking or other forms of addiction. Some may find a new lease of life and experience a boundless sense of liberation from restrictive shackles and enjoy a short or long-lasting spurt of rebellion in which base desires are indulged in as a form of sticking up a metaphorical middle finger at their previous state. It's possible that things settle down and slow changes progress into a more mainstream way of living, or some others may have a successful transition into mainstream life straightaway. I'll be Captain Obvious and say that the psychology of the individual is an important factor in the choices one makes, and this can lead to either a sense of self-satisfaction or despair when reflecting on the choices one made when leaving a cult. It doesn't matter, because ultimately we did what we needed to do and the character has been toughened, strengthened, and people learn some very important things about themselves and their resilience.

However there is an important point that can never be overstated: people never "move on" from their cult. The idea that one has moved on is, unfortunately an illusion of self-flattery. It is like saying that after having a bath, I will never be dirty again. The fact that one has been through an experience that is traumatic in several ways means that it has had a profound effect on oneself. One will never see the world in quite the same way again. One's character may be strengthened, but the experience have left certain "markers" in one's psyche so that the possibility of similar experiences happening again is guarded against. In many ways one carries with them certain behavioural tendencies that one acquired during their cult experience and which manifest themselves in different and redirected ways. This is the reason why many people observe others as still being affected by the "cult mentality". The truth is, they are too, otherwise they wouldn't be able to see it in others. I have noticed a tendency among some former Iskconites speaking of other former Iskconites as if they may as well still be in Iskcon. How could they know this, if they cannot recognise these tendencies in themselves? When we speak about making the transition from cult life to the outside world, it doesn't help when the world has characteristics quite like a cult environment!

Example from personal experience: everyone here is familiar with the GV way (and indeed religious way) of quoting scriptures to make one's points in writing a document or debating some topic. What an odd practice this is; simultaneous loving adherence and faithfulness to a tradition while being restricted against saying anything innovative or original for fear of being termed "anti-shastric". One may happily think they have left all that behind, until one comes into the world and realises the prevalent practice of quoting ancient Greek philosophers (or whoever) to give credence and substance to one's points. Call it a type of academic 'smartarseness' if you will, but it was one of the things that caused me to bury my head in my hands and sigh in exasperation when I realised that I had to quote people in my academic essays to show how my thoughts could be likened (or not) to ancient systems of thought. No matter where I went, I ended up having to be a smartarse with increasing reluctance. That's kind of why I've mentioned a couple of times in these forum discussions that I dislike the practice of quoting people to backup my points. Can't I say something original, fresh and just as clever without having to refer to someone else for support? That is why I liked reviving the "Favourite Quotes" thread because it is an opportunity to post interesting musings about love, laughter and life from my readings of various books without having to take part in a debate of sorts and inevitably act like a quote-mining smartarse. Not that I am averse to quoting in general, sometimes it can be necessary to supplement one's point with a nice quote (since you very often find someone else saying it much more artfully) and sometimes it is a pleasant interlude to sit and muse over the relevance a quote brings to our own understandings and experience. My main point is that it is useless for someone to say something like "you still exhibit cultish behaviour!" in any form that it manifests because the same holds true for the finger-pointer. Our experiences have marked us for life. People never truly move on, we are the end-result of our experiences and - even better - we are ever a work in progress. It is odd to consider that the outside world tends to have certain characteristics that aren't unlike the cult environment so that the latter can sometimes act as a training ground of sorts for entrance into the former. And those experiences are the things that have made us that much more mature and well-prepared to face further obstacles when they arrive.

It is the people who continue to have difficulty that I feel compassion for, because it is of extreme importance that a supportive environment exists for transitions to be carried out successfully. Whenever I have left the organisations I was formerly associated with, I often observed that a counselling service of sorts should be made available both for current cult members as well as for former members. Even a good friend and confidant can help in some ways, someone you feel happy to open your heart to.

I think I've talked long enough for today, perhaps too much. I don't know if anything I have said is relevant., but thanks for giving me an opportunity to write all this. It has been somewhat cathartic for me. I shall get back to making sweeping generalisations and ridiculous pot-shots asap....

[Apres Laulyam]

Thanks for taking the time and effort to write so clearly, Brainiac. I appreciate what you wrote. I had to smile at the thought of you with your head in your hands and sighing with exasperation, about quoting authority. I hope you keep throwing 'quotes' on the quote thread, and allow yourself NOT to have to debate and substantiate and wrestle. Still, I see that you put your highly synthesizing mind strength to a good use, to maybe ease some sufferings. You go right ahead an be a smart-arse, too. What a good combination, a soul detective smart-arse compssionate scientist. Hahahah. I say that affectionately, not making fun.

[Kalisurfer]

That was one wonderful post Brainiac, it contains essentialities of wonderment pertaining to the after effects of leaving the GV experience, especially the ISKCONian version. I imagine it is the reason this forum exists, to reflect upon these things, with fearless questions seeking resolution and some redeeming wisdom from the experience. I think you touched upon many.

I don’t know if you can say that “People NEVER ‘move on’ from their cult,”... for it seems many do, but reading your meaning of “NEVER move on,”...well it is a plausible idea. All life experiences are indeed a part of us, but how we choose to relate and live with the experience is more meaningful to overall mental or spiritual well being in becoming a whole healthy individualized person.

The GV or ISKCON experience was a heavy one for many, some filled with negative painful experiences and for a few it was deathly, but compared to those who live through war and genocide, it is not as traumatic overall for everyone involved. If people like Dr. Viktor Frankl could survive Nazi concentration camps and come out a loving, forgiving whole person, then indeed it is possible to move on, yet never forgetting and always ready to teach others the pitfalls and dangers of authoritarian institutions and personalities.

Your description of “academic smartarseness” was brilliant and so right on!!!!

[Brainiac]

Thanks Apres and Kali for your kind words. I was reminded how the concept of "moving on" in terms of having one's psyche marked with experiences takes place even within Iskcon. I remember the first initiation ceremony I attended where a number of new initiates became disciples of either Bhakti Caru Swami or Radhanatha Swami as their guru. I later found out that one of the new disciples of Radhanatha had previously been a Harikesa initiate, so he was being re-initiated. It's a pity I didn't know him or got the opportunity to talk to him later, because I would have been very interested in his thoughts.

What would have made him take initiation from Harikesa? Was it at a time when he was caught up in the bliss of book distribution and ISKCON and simply did what everyone else was doing? How did he deal with the fallout from Harikesa's falldown? How did he cope with being in the Nowhere Zone, the in-between-gurus wilderness where one is neither here nor there and one's spiritual standing is unknown? How had the experience "marked" him, and what qualities would he have been looking for in selecting his next guru? What were his motivations for re-initiation, and what attracted him to Radhanatha Swami? These are questions I would have liked to ask in terms of the initiate's psychology.

[Chanahari]

That said, it doesn't strike me that being religious qualifies as a psychological condition as, for the most part, religious people are normal people who go about their daily lives and work and don't really interfere with the grand scheme of things. I think this is an important area where the distinction lies, the interference in the wider world. For if you happen across a religious person who insists that he hears the voice of Jesus Christ in his ear telling him to go out and kill women (like Peter Sutcliffe, the "Yorkshire Ripper"), or someone who insists he is in receipt of divine visions from God telling him to save souls or whatnot, this is clear evidence of mental instability in the form of auditory and visual hallucinations. These symptoms do occur in some forms of schizophrenia so it's possible there is some mental instability afoot, although some phenomena have been traced to other abnormal brain activity (temporal lobe seizures). So these things will need treatment.

So I guess that's how I see it, the extent of "interference" in a wider circle than the individual's normal life is something that would make me suspect that the boundaries of "normal" religion are being transgressed into an area that may cause some form of danger. I think both atheist and religious psychiatrists would agree on that?

Brainiac, thank you - and sorry for the delay, LOL.

And what about religions that make you lessen you protein and iron intake? (By telling you shouldn't eat meat. Many psychiatrists and physicians would agree that it is a very dangerous practice, and when I went vegetarian ten years ago, some people entertained me with vivid horror stories about anemia, osteoporosis and kwashiorkor.)

What about those who discourage contact with the opposite sex? (ISKCON, anyone? Taking Bhagavatam, and especially the purports, literally, may be very detrimental to one's sociopsychological health...)

What about those who teach that by being slain in a righteous combat for believers of that religion, you're guaranteed to get the highest possible grace from God? (Islam...?)

There are the obvious (nut)cases, and there are the more subtle - those with debated criteria. May it happen that If I go to a shrink who believes in meat-eating, he will decide that I am insane?


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I found it so funny as you wrote about the experience of seeing the way quoting goes in the academia. I remember the same feeling, when I decided to enrol in a "karmi" university. I read as the great professors referred to each other and their predecessors in so guru-vadaish a way... and saw the standards for writing an article, "you have to put in references and quotes for the late prof. dr. X. and mr Y.", and at first I was, well, very surprised. They just use the work of previous professors as a revelation! Do you understand what I am rambling about?

Seeing your latest post about the newly initiated devotee, I remembered a very good friend of mine - who had no less than five gurus, siksa and diksa, in Iskcon. The first as Harikesa, and he felt down right before initiation could have taken place. And of course, I asked him about this - how can he follow her fourth guru with faith and enthusiasm? He said that he isn't actually interested in the person of a guru. He is really into Krishna. He was made believe that in order to get Krishna, one should do all this ordeal of being initiated, serving the guru, maybe having the guru fall down, and then choosing another guru - so he does choose a guru whom he thinks will be able to help him advance in Krishna consciousness, and maybe he will be able and maybe he won't and it doesn't really matter. I do think he is very pure, albeit misguided.

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Personal Vrajas and game servers: an apt metaphor.
I was never a Trad Gaud - all I know about them is from the old GaudiyaDiscussions.com. Is that real that "offline" manjari bodies are believed to lie in some Golokan hibernation pot? Hilarious! (And it gives some credence to the "falldown from Goloka theory" too. Golokan manjaris are supposed never to fall into maya...)

[Apres Laulyam]

Typically, the refusal of the mind to entertain false beliefs is not motivated by truthfulness nor by integrity. This refusal is typically motivated by a cowardly fear of insanity.

---darwin

There is something to it, Darwin. I remember the fear of losing my mind, going crazy, having no compass if I managed to discard some beliefs and adopt others all the way. The same reason why I never dared to test drugs. I hardly dared to get drunk even.

Well Dhyana,
this is something I wanted to get back to. Since I joined this site way back in 2005, which was in itself way long after I left Iskcon, then waited until now to really examine my unexamined life, I have had occasion to feel moral vertigo. I was one of those who probably joined in part because I was uprooted and aimless after college, had no vocation. And was probably looking for a surrogate family, because my family of birth was, not compelling at that time, to me. Or it compelled me away. Okay, that was a long time ago.

I see a pattern in my life, of seeking safety, niceness, wholesomeness, direction. But this is spiced with fits of recklessness, bountiful energy and (perhaps foolish) desire to really get 'out there', somehow very lonely, somehow a little bit mad. And the so many kinds and ways and means of love, that has always been there. It interested me that you spoke of the 'fear of losing your mind....having no compass...discarding beliefs...' It seems this is all in the past for you, but I sense in some of your posts a little longing for the beauty of conviction and a sort of devotion. I think in your life your love of this ePiTau grounds you, and makes the world make sense. One time also, you mentioned feeling sorrowful, thinking about death. I somehow managed not to be deeply touched by death until 2007. That is not the usual course, for one in her 50 some-odd years, not to be blasted by the incohering shock of it. It's for that reason, I think, among others, that I linger here. For some reason, I feel comfortable among people, different as we all are, who have abandoned or been abandoned by, a feeling of life making sense. I would rather linger with people who have hazarded great loss, whether it be because they were/are visited by madness, or through the death of a loved one/s, or because they just burst out of their previously nurturing cocoon, and stood shaking and wet, unsure, in a new place on their 'path'. I rather be among 'the broken ones', because I get the vibe that they are broken 'open', not destroyed. Hope you don't mind I said these things; I often feel akin to you but don't say it at the time.

[Dhyana]

Typically, the refusal of the mind to entertain false beliefs is not motivated by truthfulness nor by integrity. This refusal is typically motivated by a cowardly fear of insanity.

---darwin

There is something to it, Darwin. I remember the fear of losing my mind, going crazy, having no compass if I managed to discard some beliefs and adopt others all the way. The same reason why I never dared to test drugs. I hardly dared to get drunk even.

Well Dhyana,
this is something I wanted to get back to. Since I joined this site way back in 2005, which was in itself way long after I left Iskcon, then waited until now to really examine my unexamined life, I have had occasion to feel moral vertigo. I was one of those who probably joined in part because I was uprooted and aimless after college, had no vocation. And was probably looking for a surrogate family, because my family of birth was, not compelling at that time, to me. Or it compelled me away. Okay, that was a long time ago.

I see a pattern in my life, of seeking safety, niceness, wholesomeness, direction. But this is spiced with fits of recklessness, bountiful energy and (perhaps foolish) desire to really get 'out there', somehow very lonely, somehow a little bit mad. And the so many kinds and ways and means of love, that has always been there. It interested me that you spoke of the 'fear of losing your mind....having no compass...discarding beliefs...' It seems this is all in the past for you, but I sense in some of your posts a little longing for the beauty of conviction and a sort of devotion. I think in your life your love of this ePiTau grounds you, and makes the world make sense.

I don't think loving anyone (save one's own child, perhaps) can make the world make sense. But it makes it more stable, one feels less lost when ePiTau is also in it.

One time also, you mentioned feeling sorrowful, thinking about death. I somehow managed not to be deeply touched by death until 2007. That is not the usual course, for one in her 50 some-odd years, not to be blasted by the incohering shock of it.

I am not so sure of that. Many of the people around seem to never have been exposed to death and it seems absent from their mental world. Or maybe they just camouflage it well.

For some reason, I feel comfortable among people, different as we all are, who have abandoned or been abandoned by, a feeling of life making sense. I would rather linger with people who have hazarded great loss, whether it be because they were/are visited by madness, or through the death of a loved one/s, or because they just burst out of their previously nurturing cocoon, and stood shaking and wet, unsure, in a new place on their 'path'. I rather be among 'the broken ones', because I get the vibe that they are broken 'open', not destroyed.

Apres Laulyam, you have an unique gift of putting elusive wisdom in wonderful images.

Hope you don't mind I said these things; I often feel akin to you but don't say it at the time.

The feeling is mutual. It often feels as if we went for a walk to the exact same place with our cameras, maybe even photograph the same flower, with just slight differences of angle and composition. After browsing through my own photographic attempts, seeing what images you have captured is wonderfully mind-expanding!

[Brainiac]

Personal Vrajas and game servers: an apt metaphor. I was never a Trad Gaud - all I know about them is from the old GaudiyaDiscussions.com. Is that real that "offline" manjari bodies are believed to lie in some Golokan hibernation pot? Hilarious!

Aye, indeed, according to Kunjabihari das Babaji, they are eternally existing there (somewhere) waiting for their earthly counterparts to "activate" them and shake well before use. He called them the "shadows of the spiritual world" and supposedly derived the idea from the Sandarbhas. I don't know, it isn't what I've read in the Sandarbhas. Doesn't anyone ever ask if the gopis or gopas frolicking up there ever notice these shadows flickering about and ever ask what they are? This is one of the things that slowly led me to understand the constructionist nature of it all.

About meat, I guess the reverse might work well too. I know some vegetarian people with a weak bodily constitution who have been advised by their doctors that a non-vegetarian supplement to their diet may work well for them, and indeed it has with the occasional egg or ham sandwich. I would feel more disturbed if they refused to eat meat on the grounds of violating religious principles, is it correct to compromise health on that basis? And considering that there isn't any consensus in the Vedic scriptures on whether it is appropriate to eat meat or not? A bit like Muslims and their alcohol complex; I can understand if it's against their principles to consume alcohol, but it gets a bit much when you refuse to wash your hands with a special alcohol-based gel when visiting hospitals in order to prevent the spread of infections and germs. Recently there was another case where a Muslim council forbade the consumption of potato crisps because they contained alcohol. The alcohol embedded in the flavour occurred as a natural effect of the fermentation process, it wasn't added to the mix, and doesn't anyone ask them whether they are more likely to get fat or get drunk from eating crisps?

[Brainiac]

I had to smile at the thought of you with your head in your hands and sighing with exasperation, about quoting authority. I hope you keep throwing 'quotes' on the quote thread, and allow yourself NOT to have to debate and substantiate and wrestle. Still, I see that you put your highly synthesizing mind strength to a good use, to maybe ease some sufferings. You go right ahead an be a smart-arse, too.

As I was looking through my old spiritual blog for a reply in the 'Temples in our hearts' thread, I came across this old post of mine that I wrote as a devotee: Missing The Point, and another one: Where am I?, where I made more or less the same points there that I just made here. It's nice to see that some things have remained constant in the face of so many changes, and yet so odd to read other posts there where I am practically orgasming over some great quote or other. Ah, sweet memories... I'm just sitting here chuckling ironically at my old posts in a somewhat melancholy mood. They are great quotes though, I have to admit.

Today is just still May 13th. Two years ago on May 12th I wrote this: Mahaprabhu Will Deliver You. Interesting, huh?

Sorry, I've just gone a bit melancholy while flicking through those old posts.

[Brainiac]

A couple of weeks ago someone asked me, 'When is Snana-yatra?' I replied that I didn't know.

I found out that it was actually yesterday. I take it that Lord Jagannatha & Co. enjoyed a public bath yesterday morning.

And now he has caught a cold.

[zvs]

Sorry, I've just gone a bit melancholy while flicking through those old posts.

I experience the same thing often.

You know, your approach in this thread reminds me of David Plotz's "Blogging the Bible" series on slate.com. I think he has anthologized it into a volume called The Good Book or something like that. I hated his writing style (full of references to pop culture that somewhat sapped his credibility), but found the overall premise - and his thoughts - quite interesting to read.