Critical Krishna Options

[Brainiac]

I mentioned in the other thread that I think education is the key to realising the inherent uselessness of religion and spirituality. This is important because many people think that critical discussion of religion is hands-off, taboo, and must be respected. I don't challenge the issue of respect, as I personally respect everyone on the level of a human being, but respect for some beliefs are hard to acquire. In terms of education I think that one good strategy is to show how ridiculous some beliefs are. Bearing in mind that several members here are on different spiritual paths or follow no real path, it seems only fair to take a look at some GV stories per our commonality, and take a look at Krishna. Many people can think similarly about things in their own paths. This is especially poignant for me considering my Hindu background but I want to do some informal critical analysis.

I was going to start off with some stories, but by coincidence I today watched an episode of Kahaani Humaarey Mahabharat Ki on Channel 9X that dealt with the birth of Krishna. Look at the title of that show though, it literally means 'Our Story of Mahabharat'. If I was being generous, I'd liberally interpret it as 'Our great story of Mahabharat'. Obviously this is a somewhat high-budget production of Mahabharat but today was the episode about Krishna's birth. It's nice to see all the threads coming together in the story. But anyway...

[Brainiac]

So the evil King Kamsa imprisoned his sister Devaki and her husband Vasudev because he heard a disembodied voice from the sky telling him that the eighth fruit of their union would be the cause of his death.

Jeepers. One might think that warning somebody about their impending death would be kept under wraps just like everyone else's. And whose booming voice was it? Inquiring minds want to know. If Krishna decided to take birth on earth to kill Kamsa, why couldn't he do it quietly? We remember the story that Kamsa was always on edge, constantly sending demons to kill the boy, until he finally ended up dead. Poor guy, why couldn't he be given the chance to die relatively peacefully? What was the reason or intention to announce it years beforehand and drive him crazy with paranoia? He couldn't let his newly-married sister live peacefully and promptly banged her and her husband up in jail and ruined his public approval rating.

[Some might say that Kamsa was a demon and thus deserved to be driven wild with paranoia. Fair enough, but what does it add to the story that he should know his death beforehand? If he was going to die anyway by Krishna's hands, it would happen sooner or later.]

But this is all about the activities of the eighth fruit. I'm more interested in the first six fruits right now. Poor guys eh. They had their delicate baby-heads bashed against the cells of the prison wall for nothing. According to the story, Kamsa was initially very generous about Devaki's babies as it would be the eighth son that would be the cause of his death, right? He was prepared to let them live. Why was Kamsa suddenly compassionate? I thought demoniac people were inherently evil and thought of nothing else but massacre.

It is said that Kamsa was the most demoniac of all the Bhoja dynasty kings ... Because of his demoniac associations, he was always a demon, although born in a very high royal family. A demon never cares for any good instruction ... Kamsa became satisfied by the action of Vasudeva. He was surprised to see Vasudeva keeping his promise [to hand over the newborns when they were born], and being compassionate upon him and pleased, he began to speak as follows: "My dear Vasudeva, you need not present this child to me. I am not in danger from this child. I have heard that the eighth child born of you and Devaki will kill me. Why should I accept this child unnecessarily? You can take him back."

So despite all of his hatefulness and demonic spirit, he suddenly turned into something of a nice guy who was prepared to be very reasonable about the joyful pitter-patter of tiny feet in his house. It would be his own flesh and blood of course. Who doesn't delight in a niece or nephew? Enter Narada Muni, who caused him to be suspicious that the voice from the sky might be a lie and that any of the children could be the cause of Kamsa's death. This makes Kamsa's paranoia go into overdrive and he promptly goes ahead and kills the child and further children as soon as they are born, six in total. Narada Muni's usually good counsel seems to have acted adversely on this occasion, but some justify his actions with the fact that the killing of each fruit would cause Devaki and Vasudev to have more children and thus accelerate the advent of the supremely relishable eighth fruit who would satiate all the beings of the world with juicy rasa.

Who were this six brothers of Krishna anyway, and why were their lives so short? From Gaudiya theology we learn that Krishna descends with all of his associates, abodes and paraphernalia, so who were this six individuals whose skulls were mercilessly crushed? Krishna book is silent, but Prabhupada in SB says:

The six children killed by Kaḿsa had formerly been sons of Marīci, but because of having been cursed by a brāhmaṇa, they were obliged to take birth as grandsons of Hiraṇyakaśipu. Kaḿsa had taken birth as Kālanemi, and now he was obliged to kill his own sons. This was a mystery. As soon as the sons of Devakī were killed, they would return to their original place. The devotees wanted to see this also. Generally speaking, no one kills his own nephews, but Kaḿsa was so cruel that he did so without hesitation.

You're telling me that it was a mystery! Apart from these poor kids not having the honour of being Krishna's eternal associates and having a chance of a life, or not even being demigods specially chosen to assist him in his mission, they were cursed right from the off to die because some brahmin got angry. Still, I guess they must have done something right. Even if you are a cursed bugger, it's some pretty insane odds to end up being born in the same womb as Krishna was. Oh joy. But not for long, as barely a few minutes pass before your brains are splattered all across the cell wall by a demoniac king.

Because the devotees wanted to see it.

[Homer]

Just think how boring it must be to be god.

Poor guy needs something to get his mind off all the incessant beseeches and prayers.

I remember wishing I could be born a really deserving demon and fight with god. What is the use of being no more than a mediocre bad man?

As they say - Be Careful What You Wish For!

[Brainiac]

The next time we hear of these poor six individuals is after Kamsa is killed and Devaki-Vasudev are released from prison. After Krishna and Balarama went to the abode of Yamaraja to retrieve the dead son of their guru Sandipani, Devaki reminsced about her six dead children and implored Krishna to have them back too. So off they went back again to Yamaraja.

You really should read the request by Krishna, it's very informative:

The Supreme Lord said: During the age of the first Manu, the sage Marīci had six sons by his wife Ūrnā. They were all exalted demigods, but once they laughed at Lord Brahmā when they saw him preparing to have sex with his own daughter. Because of that improper act, they immediately entered a demoniac form of life, and thus they took birth as sons of Hiraṇyakaśipu. The goddess Yogamāyā then took them away from Hiraṇyakaśipu, and they were born again from Devakī's womb. After this, O King, Kaḿsa murdered them. Devakī still laments for them, thinking of them as her sons. These same sons of Marīci are now living here with you.

We wish to take them from this place to dispel their mother's sorrow. Then, released from their curse and free from all suffering, they will return to their home in heaven. By My grace these six — Smara, Udgītha, Pariṣvańga, Patańga, Kṣudrabhṛt and Ghṛṇī — will return to the abode of pure saints.

Hold on a second! So because they laughed at the "demoniac" action of Brahma's incest, they became demons? Which activity is more demoniac, laughter or incest? Who are the demons here, really?

And for that laughter, they were immediately condemned to be the sons of Hiranyakashipu. Could it be that there behaviour would be corrected and reformed on account of having an illustrious Vaishnava like Prahlad for a brother? Alas no! Their fortune is so cruel that (almost immediately) after taking birth as Hiranyakashipu's sons, they were taken away and kept on ice for two entire yugas before they got the chance to be borne of Devaki again. By yogamaya. Oh joy, could they finally have some peace and quiet? Still no, as Kamsa proceeded to murder them! So imagine this: You laughed at some guy for trying to have sex with his daughter, and offended him badly enough that you fall into a demoniac species and be born as the sons of a demon. For no reason you cannot suffer the results of your offense in peace but are almost immediately taken away again for a few million years or so and have to go through the whole rigmarole of being born again. Why Devaki, though? Assuming that you have to do some amazing karma to be born from the same womb as Krishna (karma, because they weren't fortunate enough to be his automatic eternal associates) when exactly did they get the chance to do this? Did they do a few minutes of tapasya after being born as Hiranyakashipu's kids, or was it something about their 'original status' as demigods. Either way, that's some mad karma!

Understand this point correctly: Offend an incestuous person by laughing at him and risk several births only to be killed immediately. Makes you wonder what punishment Brahma gets for committing incest in the first place. I'll get to that.

So what happens next for these six fellows?

When she saw her lost children, Goddess Devakī felt such affection for them that milk flowed from her breasts. She embraced them and took them onto her lap, smelling their heads again and again. Lovingly she let her sons drink from her breast, which became wet with milk just by their touch. She was entranced by the same illusory energy of Lord Viṣṇu that initiates the creation of the universe.

By drinking her nectarean milk, the remnants of what Kṛṣṇa Himself had previously drunk, the six sons touched the transcendental body of the Lord, Nārāyaṇa, and this contact awakened them to their original identities. They bowed down to Govinda, Devakī, their father and Balarāma, and then, as everyone looked on, they left for the abode of the demigods.

You might think that having the opportunity to drink the breastmilk that Krishna once drank is the result of some immense good fortune that might bestow the supremest, hugest, most fantabulous reward of rewards, the highest and most bestest place in Krishna's eternal pastimes? And why not? Didn't Putana the demoness attain a position in Goloka (as Krishna's surrogate mother or something) after Krishna drank from her breast? It stands to reason that these six fellows were lining up for some immense fortune, acquiring 'eternal' roles as Krishna's six brothers in Goloka perhaps?

Alas no! While Devaki's magic milk does have something of an effect in enabling the acquisition of their 'original identities', it unfortunately doesn't contain a 'get out of jail free' card and only allows re-admittance into the abode of the demigods! Sheesh! So after all of that travail and suffering of being born to a demon and then getting their heads smashed by a demon (and having to hang out in Yamaraja's abode after that!), they don't even get a shot at Goloka in spite of having the same mother as Krishna and drinking the same breastmilk! Even Kamsa ended up getting sayujya-mukti after getting killed by Krishna, and these guys don't even get that far? Looks like God isn't the benefactor we all thought he was if he cons his own brothers out of entering his house, Goloka.

What a sad show. And this isn't even the end of it:

Seeing her sons return from death and then depart again, saintly Devakī was struck with wonder, O King. She concluded that this was all simply an illusion created by Kṛṣṇa.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh great. So there's a remote possibility that it didn't even happen? And what specifically didn't happen? The whole charade of laughing at incest and the succeeding demonic births, or their return to Devaki after being with Yamaraja. Assuming the narrative is referring to the latter options, where could the six sons be if Devaki was hallucinating? Perhaps still with Yamaraja? Could they still be there even now?

Anyway, enough of that.

I wonder if anybody spots the obvious contradictions in the story? From Prabhupada we learnt that the six sons of Devaki were in actuality the six sons of Marici who were cursed by a brahmana, and then took birth as the grandsons of Hiranyakashipu. From Krishna we learn that they were the demigod sons of Marici who fell down because they offended Brahma (that's Brahma, not brahmana. Easy mistake to make for a novice Sanskritist). Looks like Guru and Krishna aren't always on the same page.

SB 7.4.30 informs us that Hiranyakashipu had four sons including Prahlada. Assuming that Prahlada was one of these six fellows, where were the remaining two? Still kept on ice by Yogamaya? Perhaps it was grandsons after all. So who is telling the truth: Krishna or Prabhupada?

Here's something that may go some way in affording an explanation: Ācāryas Śrīdhara Svāmī and Viśvanātha Cakravartī explain that after taking Marīci's six sons from Hiraṇyakaśipu, Lord Kṛṣṇa's Yogamāyā first made them pass through one more life as children of another great demon, Kālanemi, and then she finally transferred them to the womb of Devakī. (Purport SB 10.85-48-49) Nice move by the acharyas. You can always trust the acharyas to fill in the blanks. The scripture which was written by Vyasadev - the literary incarnation of God - is still somehow full of holes waiting to be plugged up by future acharyas. Even if nobody provides an explanation for why exactly these poor six demigods had to go through all of the crap just by laughing and pointing at some guy trying to have sex with his daughter.

[Brainiac]

Makes you wonder what punishment Brahma gets for committing incest in the first place. I'll get to that. 

No major punishment really. Brahma is suddenly sickened when he realises what he has tried to do and commits suicide. Or as we transcendentalists like to say, he gave up his body.

But see this:

O Vidura, we have heard that Brahmā had a daughter named Vāk who was born from his body and who attracted his mind toward sex, although she was not sexually inclined towards him.

She was not sexually inclined towards him. Who would be? He was supposed to be her own father after all. So Brahma's actions are tantamount to attempted rape. Incest is one thing, but now we have attempted rape as well.

But here's where it gets really interesting, as per Prabhupada:

This extraordinary immortality on the part of Brahmā was heard to have occurred in some particular kalpa, but it could not have happened in the kalpa in which Brahmā heard directly from the Lord the four essential verses of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam because the Lord blessed Brahmā, after giving him lessons on the Bhāgavatam, that he would never be bewildered in any kalpa whatsoever. This indicates that before the hearing of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam he might have fallen a victim to such sensuality, but after hearing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam directly from the Lord, there was no possibility of such failures.

That's it then. It might have happened in another kalpa, that makes it all OK. I guess moral jurisdiction only applies to this kalpa and no other?

But wait. In which kalpa were Marici's sons cursed to become demons after laughing at Brahma's incestuous rape attempts?

Krishna supposedly lived here 5000 years ago, and as far as I'm aware we haven't entered into any new kalpas. We're still very much in the same kalpa. In the enormity of time that counts as a kalpa, these incidents happened practically yesterday. If the present Brahma couldn't have been affected by lust in this kalpa due to hearing directly from the Lord, then in which kalpa did he do it where the sons of Marici laughed?

And why did they get punished for it in this kalpa, which is run by a 'pure' Brahma who couldn't possibly conceive of lust? They were born as the sons of Devaki in this kalpa, suffering for sins committed against a lusty incestuous Brahma in a previous kalpa? What did these sons of Marici do exactly, some major inter-kalpa offense that gets them punished kalpa after kalpa? It's the understatement of the kalpa to say that this doesn't seem very fair.

But then who said God was fair?

[Dhyana]

When she saw her lost children, Goddess Devakī felt such affection for them that milk flowed from her breasts. She embraced them and took them onto her lap, smelling their heads again and again. Lovingly she let her sons drink from her breast, which became wet with milk just by their touch. She was entranced by the same illusory energy of Lord Viṣṇu that initiates the creation of the universe.

By drinking her nectarean milk, the remnants of what Kṛṣṇa Himself had previously drunk, the six sons touched the transcendental body of the Lord, Nārāyaṇa, and this contact awakened them to their original identities. They bowed down to Govinda, Devakī, their father and Balarāma, and then, as everyone looked on, they left for the abode of the demigods.

Brainiac, your critical rendition is nothing short of ascarya-vat, amazing!!

By the way, there is another problem with the milk story, as already some Vaisnava-acarya (perhaps Visvanatha, I am too lazy to go check) noted: exactly when did Krishna get to drink Devaki's milk? By all accounts, Vasudeva took the newborn away immediately after birth, and carried him out of the prison.

Visvanatha solves the problem by revealing that Devaki allowed Krishna to drink her milk just once, so that he would be quiet and not wake up the guards by crying. (As if anything could wake up those guards put to sleep by Yogamaya! Or maybe wait, the Lord's cries probably would, being transcendental.)

Seeing her sons return from death and then depart again, saintly Devakī was struck with wonder, O King. She concluded that this was all simply an illusion created by Kṛṣṇa.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh great. So there's a remote possibility that it didn't even happen? And what specifically didn't happen? The whole charade of laughing at incest and the succeeding demonic births, or their return to Devaki after being with Yamaraja. Assuming the narrative is referring to the latter options, where could the six sons be if Devaki was hallucinating? Perhaps still with Yamaraja? Could they still be there even now?

I wonder if anybody spots the obvious contradictions in the story?

Not I. Thank you for this one!

From Prabhupada we learnt that the six sons of Devaki were in actuality the six sons of Marici who were cursed by a brahmana, and then took birth as the grandsons of Hiranyakashipu. From Krishna we learn that they were the demigod sons of Marici who fell down because they offended Brahma (that's Brahma, not brahmana. Easy mistake to make for a novice Sanskritist). Looks like Guru and Krishna aren't always on the same page.

Or if they are, it's mostly because Guru sees to it that he is found on each and every page.

[Dhyana]

Makes you wonder what punishment Brahma gets for committing incest in the first place. I'll get to that. 

No major punishment really. Brahma is suddenly sickened when he realises what he has tried to do and commits suicide. Or as we transcendentalists like to say, he gave up his body.

It wasn't even that bad. The acaryas point out Brahma's body is made of pure intelligence, so for him, giving up his body is pretty equivalent to "changing his mind." He simply abandoned his incestuous mentality, they say. Very convenient.

[zanardi]

Brainiac, this was interesting reading, just for the old times sake, and no, I was never that alert or sharp to notice all these contradictions.

Come to think of it, many of these commentators would have been hot stuff as politicians who try and sometimes can explain themselves out of all kind of embarassing situations.

[Dhyana]

Brainiac, this was interesting reading, just for the old times sake, and no, I was never that alert or sharp to notice all these contradictions. 

Come to think of it, many of these commentators would have been hot stuff as politicians who try and sometimes can explain themselves out of all kind of embarassing situations.

Jiva Gosvami for President! He even managed to sanitize Radha and Krishna by getting them properly married (in Gopala-campu), that should make him hot stuff for the Republicans.

Their explanations held pretty well as long as most people were illiterate, the libraries few and far apart, no critical editions and no Internet. Once these tools are in place, many of the old authorities stand there with their figurative pants (gumpsas) down. In a way, it's unjust.

Madhvacarya too could probably be a rising star as an independent maverick. But once the vetting process started and journalists got around to scrutinizing his sources, he would have lost face big time and had to switch to a career as a sankirtan devotee. He had so many fantastic selling lines and no dearth of self-confidence.

[zanardi]

Dhyana, you just revealed why so many in our former institution are so hell bent on "preaching", "going out", "distributing books" etc. Being the sole distributors of the absolute truth we just had to go out and use our "fantastic selling lines" in order to convert as many as possible to join our ranks.

How did the trick work? Let us calculate. After having sold alltogether about 700 000 books here in Finland, there is now a bit more than 70 registered members in the movement. Today, less than 20 fulltimers. That is after 25 years of hard work.

Of course there is a bunch of people who practice their brand of vaisnavism, outside of Iskcon, and I do not see the invisible. Still, do the math.

[ePiTau]

The story with the six babies who got killed by Kamsa is originally found in the Harivamsa. There it is known as the SaDgarbha ("the six embryos") episode. For an excellent translation and analysis of the story see:

SUNESON, Carl: The Sadgarbha tradition in the Harivamsa, the Puranas and the Krsnacaritranataka of Ranajit Malla. Wiener Zeitschrift für die Kunde Südasiens und Archiv für indische Philosophie 36 (1993) 197-211[= Supplement Proceedings of the VIIIth World Sanskrit Conference Vienna 1990]

Introductory remarks. - The Harivamsa and Nilakantha's commentary. - The Puranic tradition. - The Jaina alternative. - The eastern tradition and Ranajit Malla's Krsnacaritranataka.


A pious Madhvaite explanation of the matter I found here (the passage is quoted in blue below):

The Background for Kamsa killing the children
[Mahabaratha Tatparya Nirnaya - Introduction by Prof.K.T.Pandurangi Chapter XII]

For the episode of Kamsa killing six children of Devaki, there is an interesting
background. They were six sons of Marichi. They laughed at Sage Devala, as he was very
ricketee.He cursed them.They were born as the sons of Kalanemi. They became known as
Sadgarbha They used to remain in the water at Patala loka performing penance to
obtain immortality. Brahma granted them immortality. However Hiranyakashipu became
angry at this. He did not like his brother's grandsons obtaining a boon from
Brahma (Kalanemi was the son of Hiranyakashipu's brother Hiranyaksha).
Therefore, he cursed them to be born again and be killed by their own father.
Accordingly, they were born as Devaki's children and were killed by their own
father. Kamsa as Kalanemi was their father in their earlier birth. The boon
given by Brahma to be immortal and the curse given by Hiranyakashipu to be
killed by their father were reconciled by Durga.
Durga used to keep each one of these in a cave and make them sleep for one full year.
She used to take the jiva of each one and put it in the embryo of Devaki, thus acquiring a
new body. It used to be killed by Kamsa. Durga used to take back this jiva and put it in
the sleeping body again. Thus, they were killed by their father Kamsa i.e. Kalanemi and
were also immortal. Durga performed this trick as per the direction of God.


Apart from the Harivamsa the story is also mentioned in the Devibhagavata:

7. Thus the six sons were born to Devakî; and Kamsa, too, killed those six sons consecutively as they were born. These six sons named Sadgarbha, were killed just after their births, owing to their having been previously cursed.

8. O King! Hear why they were cursed before. In the reign of Svâyambhuva Manu, were born to Urnâ; the wife of Maharsi Marîchi, the six powerful sons, all of a virtuous disposition.

9-11. Once, on an occasion, the Prajâpati Brahmâ, on seeing his daughter, became passionate, and was ready to hold sexual intercourse with her. At this, those six sons laughed at him. Brahmâ cursed them saying “You all go quickly and take your birth in the wombs of the asuras.” Therefore those six sons became the sons of Kâlanemi in their first birth. At their second birth, they became the sons of Hiranyakas’ipu. This second time they had the fear of curse in their minds and therefore were born endowed with knowledge.

12. In this birth they became peaceful and, collecting all their energies, they began to practise austerities. Brahmâ was pleased at this and asked the Sadgarbha to take boons.

13. Brahmâ said :-- O my sons! I was very angry to you before and cursed you; now I am very much pleased with you; ask boons from me that you all desire.

14-15. Vyâsa said :-- Hearing Brahmâ’s words, they were very glad and becoming very anxious to secure their objects of desire, said :-- O our grand
sire! Today thou art pleased unto us; now favour us with our desired boons. That we may be invulnerable to all the Devas, human beings, the big serpents the Gandarbhas, and the Lord of Siddhas, (semi-divine beings supposed to be of great purity and holiness and said to be particularly characterised by eight supernatural faculties called Siddhis).

16. Vyâsa said :-- Brahmâ told them “What you have asked, you would certainly get; O blessed ones! better go now; my words will be found to be literally true. No doubt in this.”

17-19. Granting them boons, Brahmâ went away; they then became very glad. O best of Kurus! Hiranyakas’ipu began to think “My sons now have pleased the Grandsire Brahmâ and are now regardless of me” and got very angry and said :-- You all are become very proud on account of receiving boons; and since you have ceased your good feelings towards me I also henceforth cut off my connection with you. Now better go to Pâtâla; you will be known in this world as Sadgarbha.

20-21. At present you would be always involved in deep sleep and remain in Pâtâla for many years; and when you will be born one after another in the womb of Devakî, then your father Kâlanemi of previous birth will be born as Kamsa; and he would be cruel hearted and surely kill you all, no sooner you be born.

22. Vyâsa said :-- Thus because they were cursed, they took their births repeatedly and Kamsa, too, being urged on by the same curse, killed those sons of Devakî, the Sadgarbha, no sooner they were born.

________________________________________________________________________________
___

And here, for the true connoisseurs an ecstatically garbled OCR scan of MANMATHA NATH DUTT'S English translation of the relevant Harivamsa passage:

[quoted from here]

Vishnu began to think (g). " Bhoja's descendant Kansa will destroy the first seven children of Devalti. In her eiy6th

conception I shall leave to live in her womb" (to). While thus meditating his mind flew where the Saragarbha DAnavas,

F , "J nlt(11Py Ila;i.ca, SL1L'lkl-r'ttlta,D3I111na, IZII?Vil7ardafla, tired

248

HARIVADIS1iA.

Krodhaharta were living in the water (t i). These immortal= like Saragarblras, the sons of -Kalanemi, $were powerful like tile celestials, were of effulgent persons and experts in battle (t2). Leaving their own grand-fattier Hiranyakasipu and wearing manned locks those Saragarbha Daityas worshipped the Grand-father of all, Brahma, with hard penances who, being pleased, conferred oil them the tollowing boon (r3-t4,.

BRAHMA said :-` 0 ye foremost of Danavas, I have been greatly pleased with your ascetic austerities. Express to me clearly your wishes, I shall grant them to you all." (I5).

Encouraged by Brahma's words the Daityas said "0 lord, if thou art pleased with us do thou confer upon us this best of boons. 0 Brahman, if thou art ready to confer upon us a boon, do thou grant us such a one as may render us unslayable by the gods, the huge Uragas, Yakshas, Gandharvas, Siddhas, Charanas, men and by the great Rishisever engaged in penances, whose weapons are their curses"

(t6-i8).

The Grand-fatPier was greatly delighted at heart with their ascetic observances and therefore affectionately said to them :-'`What, you have prayed for, will all be accomplished." Having conferred this boon on Saranarbhas the self-born repaired to the celestial region.

Thereupon Hiranyakasipu addressed them in angry words saying (r9-2o). " By your disregarding me and praying for a boon to the lotcas-sprung Brahma, you have become my enemies. I therefore have no affection for you and forsake you all. That father, who has given you the highsounding name of Sayagwrbha, will kill you all while in embryo (21-22.) 0 ye great Asuras Saragarblras, you all six will be born in order from Devaki and Kansa will kill you (23),»

VAISHAMPAYNA said :-Thereupon repairing to the nether region Vishnu arrived where Saragarblra Asuras, on accoufi~

4P 'IMMIMP-

HAl7tVAMSHA.

of the- imprecation of I-Iiranyalcasipu, were living in the womb of water. He saw them lying there possessed by

death-like leep (2q.--25). Thereupon entering into the body of the Saragarbhas in a state of dream, Vishnu, having truth for his prowess, caught hold of their vital breaths and con-

signed them to the care of sleep. He said "O sleep, by my command take the vital airs of all these leading Danavas Saragarbhas and place them in order in the womb of Devaki (z6-23). They will be born of her womb and proceed to the abode of Death. Kansas efforts will be baffled and Devalci's labour will be crowned with success (2g). I wit show you such a favour that like me you will be powerful on earth and adored of all creatures (30). Thereupon when my gentle portion will be conceived by Devaki in her seventh conception, take that eldest brother of mine in the seventh month and place him within Rolini's womb (3I),

[Brainiac]

Thanks to everyone for their great and insightful comments, especially Ek! That was some wonderful info. It's amazing what a bit of 'mental gymnastics' and revisionism will do to iron out all the kinks in the stories.

It's fun to go through these stories for old time's sake as Zanardi mentioned. It can only make me think: How did we ever believe this stuff?

Next time I get approached by a Harry, I think I'm gonna tell him all this stuff. I won't laugh at him though. It's worse than incest.

[Dhyana]

Dhyana, you just revealed why so many in our former institution are so hell bent on "preaching", "going out", "distributing books" etc.  Being the sole distributors of the absolute truth we just had to go out and use our "fantastic selling lines" in order to convert as many as possible to join our ranks. 

How did the trick work? Let us calculate.  After having sold alltogether about 700 000 books here in Finland, there is now a bit more than 70 registered members in the movement.  Today, less than 20 fulltimers.  That is after 25 years of hard work. 

Of course there is a bunch of people who practice their brand of vaisnavism, outside of Iskcon,  and I do not see the invisible.  Still, do the math.

Well, that just shows that Finland is a very demoniac place. Only 25? So what? We are selling diamonds, not many can buy. (paraphrase of something SP once said)

[Dhyana]

It's fun to go through these stories for old time's sake as Zanardi mentioned. It can only make me think: How did we ever believe this stuff?

As Ek and I found ourselves meditating on the story of Devaki's eight baby last night, we came to wonder: If Kamsa wanted to avoid being killed by Devaki's eight child, why did he not consider imprisoning her alone, without Vasudeva? (And no access to the guards...)

He wouldn't have to kill any babies. Everything would be fine and dandy.

[Gerard]

Just curious. Isn't there anyone of the above posters who never ever considered that there just might be some deeper meaning to these stories? I am glad that those stories are so amusing to you now - at least you are getting some fun out your Iskcon past - but have you ONLY been fundamentalist literalists then, has there never been a hunch, a feeling perhaps that there was something to these stories? Not that I know what these stories mean of course, just wondering how you were living all those years in Iskcon.

[ePiTau]

Just curious. Isn't there anyone of the above posters who never ever considered that there just might be some deeper meaning to these stories? I am glad that those stories are so amusing to you now - at least you are getting some fun out your Iskcon past - but have you ONLY been fundamentalist literalists then, has there never been a hunch, a feeling perhaps that there was something to these stories? Not that I know what these stories mean of course, just wondering how you were living all those years in Iskcon.

Deeper meanings in general were viewed with suspicion by Prabhu Foot. They smacked of mental speculation, were declared maya and rejected. Only one single chapter in BhP was officially allowed to have a deeper meaning. Ha ha, any one knows?

[Dhyana]

Just curious. Isn't there anyone of the above posters who never ever considered that there just might be some deeper meaning to these stories?

Not "deeper" in the ISKCON sense, but some of the stories spoke to something in me. It didn't seem to be about the nature of God, more often about our humanity. It was the stories' way of conveying emotions -- if one allowed oneself to visualize.

If anyone ever takes those up, I won't be joking.

But it was often hard to be touched by stories that were so full of weird twists and turns and strange ethics.

Apart from that, ePiTau's point is important.

[0Aran0]

Deeper meanings in general were viewed with suspicion... They smacked of mental speculation, were declared maya and rejected. Only one single chapter in BhP was officially allowed to have a deeper meaning. Ha ha, any one knows?

This was not - thank God - the case with Sridhar Maharaj (one of the reasons the GBC hated him and branded him as an 'impersonalist'.

Softbrain's question (and your response) intrigues me, are you admitting, ePiTau - excuse the audacity of my enquiry - to having only lived (in ISKCON) as a literalist, without having any deeper personal experience(s)? This is something I find quite hard to fully believe.

Please don't take this post in the wrong spirit. I too am 'curious'.

[zanardi]

Just curious. Isn't there anyone of the above posters who never ever considered that there just might be some deeper meaning to these stories? I am glad that those stories are so amusing to you now - at least you are getting some fun out your Iskcon past - but have you ONLY been fundamentalist literalists then, has there never been a hunch, a feeling perhaps that there was something to these stories? Not that I know what these stories mean of course, just wondering how you were living all those years in Iskcon.

Deeper meanings in general were viewed with suspicion by Prabhu Foot. They smacked of mental speculation, were declared maya and rejected. Only one single chapter in BhP was officially allowed to have a deeper meaning. Ha ha, any one knows?

This suspension is killing me! Where was that wild act allowed? And more importantly, what happened to those who let their mind and brain search for a "deeper meaning"?

[angrezi]

I think its kinda sweet that ek and dhyana still discuss Krishna lila together!