Ghost in the Machine? Options

[Kalisurfer]

A Kansas City Gym’s security camera goes off 9 times when motion detectors activate it due to something in the gym triggering it between 2 and 4:30 am in the morning. The cameras show nothing more than a white orb going around the gym, which is the only thing seen on the security tape.

Do you believe in the possibility of ghosts, spirits or disembodied souls? What do you think is on the video tape?



Kansas City Gym Spirit

[rhapsodieff]

A Kansas City Gym’s security camera goes off 9 times when motion detectors activate it due to something in the gym triggering it between 2 and 4:30 am in the morning. The cameras show nothing more than a white orb going around the gym, which is the only thing seen on the security tape.

Do you believe in the possibility of ghosts, spirits or disembodied souls? What do you think is on the video tape?



Kansas City Gym Spirit

looks like someone is shining a torch through a window...

[angrezi]

its obviously the ghost of some fitness nut still trying to tweak his abs

[Kalisurfer]

I know of friends who believe that spirits manifest as orbs that are prone to show up in photos and videos. I've never seen an orb floating around, but I have shot photos with them appearing. I have always thought of them as some sort of light refraction through the lens. I do believe in the possibility of spirits and subtle beings though, but have no way to prove the matter, therefore it becomes a matter of belief in possibilities of the unknown that is beyond logic or reason. There are a lot of people really into these type of things, and Theosophists and Spiritualists have been teaching such things for many years now in the West.

[metamorphosis]

I lived a year in a Haunted house. We had incredibly strange things happen daily. From the Piano playing by itself to my Piggy Bank jumping off the shelf. Some people after us who lived there saw a man once. I am a believer.

[Brainiac]

I know of friends who believe that spirits manifest as orbs that are prone to show up in photos and videos. I've never seen an orb floating around, but I have shot photos with them appearing. I have always thought of them as some sort of light refraction through the lens.

It is also due to dust particles on the surface of the lens. I've shot many such orbs too. Clean the lens and you'll never shoot them again.

As to the other question, I am highly sceptical as to the existence of ghosts and other types of "disembodied entities". I enjoy the idea of them only in classical art, literature and "urban myths", such as the belief that Anne Boleyn's ghost still haunts Hampton Court. But I no longer believe that such things exist, no.

[Kalisurfer]

I know of friends who believe that spirits manifest as orbs that are prone to show up in photos and videos. I've never seen an orb floating around, but I have shot photos with them appearing. I have always thought of them as some sort of light refraction through the lens.

It is also due to dust particles on the surface of the lens. I've shot many such orbs too. Clean the lens and you'll never shoot them again.

Dust can be the reason in some instances of photo orbs, but dust on the lens will have constant results in photos, showing up in a series of photos and all in the same place and order. They can also be the reflection of light when using a flash on flying insects and larger dust or moisture particles that float in the air. They can also exist due to aberrations in how digital sensor chips that exist inside many smaller digital cameras read light and shadows. Most likely most orb photos can be explained away, but sometimes not. I think its nice to have mysteries out there that cannot be explained by either science or religion...seems to make life that much more adventurous and full of potentialities yet to be understood.

As to the other question, I am highly skeptical as to the existence of ghosts and other types of "disembodied entities". I enjoy the idea of them only in classical art, literature and "urban myths," such as the belief that Anne Boleyn's ghost still haunts Hampton Court. But I no longer believe that such things exist, no.

You seem pretty sure in your conviction, are you 100% convinced that all things considered paranormal or metaphysical that we experience can be explained by logic and science? I find it interesting to find people who are 100% sure, without a doubt, that either science or religion can explain everything we experience that has a sense of mystery to it.

[0Aran0]

I find it interesting to find people who are 100% sure, without a doubt, that either science or religion can explain everything we experience that has a sense of mystery to it.

I am not speaking of Brainiac here, as he is yet to answer, but, It has always seemed to me that this type of 'conviction' is born of fear.

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Admittedly, I intuit that there is - and this is, oddly enough, a rather 'religious' view of the problem - an even deeper animating force at work in all of this, which is more concerned with locus and dialogue, and how these relate to existence.

This, for me, makes it even more sad that both the religious and scientific quests frequently seem to end in philosophical torpor.

I therefore believe that for the most part they mean well but, undoubtedly, could do much better.

[Brainiac]

Dust can be the reason in some instances of photo orbs, but dust on the lens will have constant results in photos, showing up in a series of photos and all in the same place and order. They can also be the reflection of light when using a flash on flying insects and larger dust or moisture particles that float in the air. They can also exist due to aberrations in how digital sensor chips that exist inside many smaller digital cameras read light and shadows.

This could be true also. I can only speak of my own experience of course. I once shot a (digital) photo of my Dad in which a spooky orb appeared near him. I noticed it immediately and took another shot, and the orb seemed to have moved near the ceiling. Further shots didn't show any orb. Like anyone else, I thought I might have captured something 'interesting' on camera, an orb that floated away (I was even going to post the picture here when that happened.) Of course something nagged away at me that it could also be possible that the orbs showed up because of the exact and precise angular location of the camera/shot against all possible light sources which couldn't be replicated again for obvious reasons.

Some time later I attended my cousin's wedding reception and shot some photos of the happy couple, and those orbs showed up again. This time I knew I had left my camera lying around and promptly wiped the lens with a tissue. I now regularly clean my lens and have never shot an orb again, ever. It's funny how these orbs are round, the shape of dust particles. Interestingly, magnification of those shots showed that an individual dust particle had an intricate internal structure, rather like snowflakes. Now that you remind me, I have a few professional photographer friends I can ask if they have had similar experiences.

You seem pretty sure in your conviction, are you 100% convinced that all things considered paranormal or metaphysical that we experience can be explained by logic and science? I find it interesting to find people who are 100% sure, without a doubt, that either science or religion can explain everything we experience that has a sense of mystery to it.

Well I did say it was my belief that such things don't exist. But yes, because I have become more and more conversant with science with every passing day, I am sure that everything can be explained in terms of logic and science. If not now, then in the future. Maybe not 100%, but 99.99%. I don't think there is anything that can be considered truly metaphysical or paranormal. I have seen a lot of "miracles" during my travels in India and other places. The biggest one I ever saw or heard of relates to "psychic surgery" where surgical operations are carried out under trance. Every one of these miracles I have seen replicated by magicians or rationalists, so someone is really gonna have to pull something out of their hat (pun not intended) to get noticed. In fact, it wasn't so long ago that PC Sorcar's daughter cycled over a lake. This is the guy who made the Taj Mahal (the real one) "disappear" once. I used to believe in all these things, but not anymore.

As for fear (Aran's proposal), why would non-belief in ghosts etc be based in fear? I think I would be much more fearful if ghosts did exist, haunting us all over the place, and we had no way to combat them (given their supposedly extra-corporeal nature). I feel much more comforted and confident by their non-existence.

[0Aran0]

As for fear (Aran's proposal), why would non-belief in ghosts etc be based in fear?

In my opinion, the need to be certain is grounded in fear - as, perhaps, indicated here:

I feel much more comforted and confident by their non-existence.

[angrezi]

also Brainiac can you prove that the 'dust' on your lens wasn't actually sentient beings (or ghosts) in the process of evolution?

[ePiTau]

In my opinion, the need to be certain is grounded in fear - as, perhaps, indicated here:

For how long needs a feeling of certainty to persist to accomplish fear removal?
Is a series of short certainty bursts as effective as a continuous feeling of certainty?
What is the duration of the longest, continuous period of certainty felt by or postulated to have existed in a human being?

[Brainiac]

In my opinion, the need to be certain is grounded in fear

Oh right, I understand better now.

Well, I wasn't really fearful of ghosts when I did believe in them. I don't scare easily, which is why I can't enjoy horror movies as much as others and it is my favourite genre. So it doesn't really make much difference to me if they existed or not, fear or certainty notwithstanding.

Angrezi, you have a point there lol..

[0Aran0]

[center] .

A Warning To The Curious...

In my opinion, the need to be certain is grounded in fear - as, perhaps, indicated here:

For how long needs a feeling of certainty to persist to accomplish fear removal?
Is a series of short certainty bursts as effective as a continuous feeling of certainty?
What is the duration of the longest, continuous period of certainty felt by or postulated to have existed in a human being?

Sir, you appear to have misunderstood me; I do not hold to the notion that certainty ever can or will bring about 'fear removal'.

Indeed, I suspect that this and your other queries are motivated by the very need for certainty that you apparently (one can never be sure) wish to escape. Beware!

[jean]

I've never seen a ghost but felt their presence many a time especially in the Soho St. temple which was an old brothel in Victorian times and beyond. I had never been exposed to anything quite like it and before I joined I did not beleive in ghosts, bit in the ashram there was a nightly tirade of weird sounds, punches in the gut, being paralysed, voices, footsteps and loads more was the creepiest place ever.

[angrezi]

I've never seen a ghost but felt their presence many a time especially in the Soho St. temple which was an old brothel in Victorian times and beyond.  I had never been exposed to anything quite like it and before I joined I did not beleive in ghosts, bit in the ashram there was a nightly tirade of weird sounds, punches in the gut, being paralysed, voices, footsteps and loads more was the creepiest place ever.

I was only in the Soho tempel once on a layover to India. I took an exhausted nap on the floor of the bramacherry ashrama to awake in a semi-conscious state an hour later to a chubby begali brahmacherry clad only in a kaupin doing some kind of aerobic excercize, or perhaps some kind of mating dance, about 3 feet away from me. It was much scarier than a ghost.

[Brainiac]

Haha Jean, that's amazing. I go to Soho St all the time and I've never heard about it being a brothel or haunted.

[Kalisurfer]

Well I did say it was my belief that such things don't exist. But yes, because I have become more and more conversant with science with every passing day, I am sure that everything can be explained in terms of logic and science. If not now, then in the future. Maybe not 100%, but 99.99%. I don't think there is anything that can be considered truly metaphysical or paranormal. I have seen a lot of "miracles" during my travels in India and other places. The biggest one I ever saw or heard of relates to "psychic surgery" where surgical operations are carried out under trance. Every one of these miracles I have seen replicated by magicians or rationalists, so someone is really gonna have to pull something out of their hat (pun not intended) to get noticed. In fact, it wasn't so long ago that PC Sorcar's daughter cycled over a lake. This is the guy who made the Taj Mahal (the real one) "disappear" once. I used to believe in all these things, but not anymore.

Sometimes I do think that everything in one way or another exists mainly because we believe it does. Science currently says that the entire universe contains only 4% visible matter and energy while the remaining 96% is classified as dark matter, some mysterious hypothetical stuff whose presence can only be inferred from gravitational effects on matter that is visible. This invisible field is pretty huge and contains or non-contains much we have very little info on. So when one thinks that 96% of all that exists is empty space or Dark Matter as they call it, there is a lot of mystery that exists in the observable universe, as we know it. This does open up the possibility of much that we just cannot explain or know, which to me is very exciting stuff to contemplate and may indeed be an area where much of what is called paranormal can take place or exist.

I do believe that many people set up mental boundaries when it comes to science and spirituality. On one side is theoretical science, which has methods of investigation, and proof of material elements and on the other side is the realm of non-physical paranormal possibilities that is inundated with the cultural baggage of religion and superstition. Many choose to live in either one side of the boundary or the other for the certainty that takes away the angst of existence to a certain degree.

Quantum Physics seems to be bridging this artificial boundary that many draw between science and the paranormal, investigation into the sublets elements has discovered a world that to many would seem like science fiction. Wave Particle Duality, Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle and the Unified Field Theory puts conventional thinking toward what a physical object is and how we perceive it on its head.

Once you start investigating consciousness itself, it gets pretty interesting indeed, the land of the mysterious comes to the forefront, and science is left with many speculations and theories, much like religion, where faith in philosophy, practice and method become paramount, but little certainty exists, unless you count that which exists in the mind and heart of the true believer on either side of the science/spiritual divide.

May the ghost of Schrödinger cast his every living light on us all, you know, that stray particle that becomes mere dust on my camera lens in search of a home in String Theory existing within a parallel universe where someone exactly like me is writing this to someone exactly like you at the exact moment anyone reading this has their parallel twin doing the same!


_ _

[Brainiac]

So when one thinks that 96% of all that exists is empty space or Dark Matter as they call it, there is a lot of mystery that exists in the observable universe, as we know it. This does open up the possibility of much that we just cannot explain or know, which to me is very exciting stuff to contemplate and may indeed be an area where much of what is called paranormal can take place or exist.

But I don't see how paranormal possibilities follow from "unknown" Dark stuff. Dark Matter and Dark Energy are devices used to explain (or attempt to explain) mass. Beyond that, they are attempts to explain angular fluctuations in the cosmic microwave background and also the formation and properties of galaxies, and also why the universe is expanding. In other words, DM and DE explain very material functions of the universe. The idea behind the paranormal is in its name, paranormal. Or perhaps, anti-normal. Or spiritual, if you insist on going that far, which implies that the whole notion and concept of paranormality is antithethical to materialism. But unfortunately "paranormal" is pseudoscience and not 'proper' science. Astrophysics isn't really my field though so I don't know much about it, although I recently discovered that one of my high school friends is an astrophysics teacher and research fellow at Oxford.

I do believe that many people set up mental boundaries when it comes to science and spirituality. On one side is theoretical science, which has methods of investigation, and proof of material elements and on the other side is the realm of non-physical paranormal possibilities that is inundated with the cultural baggage of religion and superstition. Many choose to live in either one side of the boundary or the other for the certainty that takes away the angst of existence to a certain degree.

The crux of the whole problem is this unsubstantiated idea that science and spirituality are on an equal footing. They sadly aren't. The scientific model doesn't just stand for formulating hypotheses and investigating their 'trueness' or 'falseness', but has the amazing ability to make predictions. This is why there is some solid ground assured by science which can say that things occur and take place, because not only can the result be predicted but replicated too. In sharp contrast, "paranormal" experiments (testing various 'abilities' through a variety of methods) have consistently reported variable results at best. It has been shown to be a hit-and-miss enterprise along with some outrageous instances of fraud, which is why it is unreliable. Parapsychology as a field is pseudoscience.

The idea that there is some kind of war between science and spirituality is a false dichotomy as they simply aren't on an equal footing. It is unfortunate but that is the reality. The reality is that science is too big, exciting, and far more exhilarating and interesting for the small-mindedness of spirituality. In fact, I recently read an excellent editorial by Lawrence Krauss that discusses and expands on this very premise. The article at New Scientist is subscription-only, but I have copied it on my blog. I heartily recommend it.

Once you start investigating consciousness itself, it gets pretty interesting indeed, the land of the mysterious comes to the forefront, and science is left with many speculations and theories, much like religion, where faith in philosophy, practice and method become paramount, but little certainty exists, unless you count that which exists in the mind and heart of the true believer on either side of the science/spiritual divide.

The analogy isn't quite correct. I studied a consciousness module as an undergraduate and while it is true that multiple theories abound to explain certain phenomena, it is important to remember that there are (or were, in the case of discarded theories) extremely good reasons for why the particular theory was proposed in the first place. The reason why theories are discarded along the way is because of experimental investigation that turns up results that support or invalidate the theory. The theories that hold sway today are so because there is substantial experimental support for them and which hold the possibilities for future research along those guided directions.

For example, the post-Freudian and Jungian era was overtaken by behaviourists (led by B. F. Skinner), who held that mental states could be discerned purely by people's behaviour alone. An absurd idea but there you are. The idea of emotions and consciousness was negated, it was regarded as an unexplainable embarrassment fit to be ignored. However, it was eventually overthrown when the noise created by eventual experimental investigations became loud enough to deafen the ears of behaviourists and everyone else, and when the evidence for the existence of emotions and consciousness was too loud to be ignored. I can give similar examples if necessary, but I trust the point is clear about how evidence-based methods are of great importance. In this regard you might like to read this blog by Dr. Steven Novella.

Unlike religions, where multiple theological and ideological systems compete with each other for supremacy, where the believers of the same are ready to slit their opponents' throat at a moment's notice, and where it is all a lie considering the elephant-in-the-room lack of proof of any substance to any of their ideas, science advances through trial-and-error in which progress is ultimately assured.

May the ghost of Schrödinger cast his every living light on us all, you know, that stray particle that becomes mere dust on my camera lens in search of a home in String Theory existing within a parallel universe where someone exactly like me is writing this to someone exactly like you at the exact moment anyone reading this has their parallel twin doing the same!

 
  _ _

I am fascinated with the theories of parallel universes. I was flicking through Hawking's A Brief History of Time the other day, and came across a passage in which he mentioned that if you happen to ever meet your anti-self, you had better not shake hands or both of you will disappear in a flash of light! Fascinating.

[Brainiac]

This all doesn't mean that science is perfect, though. There are a number of crackpots out there too, with studies that present ideologies in scientific language. The Creationism or Intelligent Design proponents (IDiots) are an example of this.

This is why the peer-review process is very important.