Trolls and Stalkers Options

[Ananda]

Do you have experiences with trolls and stalkers who try to make your new soup sour with incredible persistence and obstinacy, having left the cult folds?



http://www.halfsatori.com/2008/08/neurotic...ound-choir.html

This ode is dedicated to the whole grand family. I find the phenomenon immensely fascinating in terms of psychology, even if I don't care to give it day-to-day attention.

[Ananda]

Tapati had some very good comments here.

Tapati said...

    I am amused at the number of people (apparently) who feel a need to follow you around the internet because they disagree with you or want to find fault in you. It's clear to me that envy and insecurity are involved. One enterprising fellow even has a blog just to reflect on your blogs. Even if you were the most egotistical and arrogant guru wannabe on earth, these activities in pursuit of busting you for false beliefs are just a huge distraction from anyone's spiritual life. I'm amazed that people are wasting their valuable and limited time in this way.

    I recall a discussion I was involved in a few months ago where instead of directly addressing my points on Vaishnavism and sexism, one of the forum members kept latching on to anything I might indicate about my own path and started posting text showing the sexism that might be present in that tradition. Since I follow no established tradition that fell rather flat. (I had a Buddhist-related signature line, though.)

    Following your own bliss confuses people, especially when you are apparently happy doing so.

And more in the comments that followed.

[angrezi]

back before the days of internet you could just tell someone to f*ck off. Now everything has become so complicated.

[Ananda]

back before the days of internet you could just tell someone to f*ck off. Now everything has become so complicated.

And they would usually get the point and stay off your face... Ah, but the distance and the anonymity of the internet provides such wonderful avenues for psychologically disturbed individuals.

[Dhyana]

Do you have experiences with trolls and stalkers who try to make your new soup sour with incredible persistence and obstinacy, having left the cult folds?

Not quite that way but related. Back in 1999, after I wrote a couple of Prabhupada-critical texts in Topical Discussions (on PAMHO), some senior devotees leaked these texts. Articles were written in various places of the net, by various people. Most of them could not even get the spelling of my name right, but all of them carefully reproduced a couple of my statements they found most horrendous. As if they couldn't tear their minds apart from the horrors like "I have trouble trusting people [like Prabhupada]." Or maybe it gave them pleasure? The amount of free coverage amazed me.

[Tapati]

from a famous troll:

Weeks later, after talking to his friend Zach, F------y began considering the deeper emotional forces that drove him to troll. The theory of the green hair, he said, “allows me to find people who do stupid things and turn them around. Zach asked if I thought I could turn my parents around. I almost broke down. The idea of them learning from their mistakes and becoming people that I could actually be proud of . . . it was overwhelming.” He continued: “It’s not that I do this because I hate them. I do this because I’m trying to save them.”

The page is down where I got this quote--possibly the trolls didn't like the way they were depicted and took it down. Here's the url in case it starts working again:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magazine...gin&oref=slogin

I thought it was interesting that when pressed, this guy claimed that what he was doing was for people's own good, to make them less thin-skinned. The Green Hair reference is to a tactic like my own pink hair reference. You demonstrate to someone that criticizing something they KNOW they don't have--green or pink hair--causes no distress or defensiveness and gets laughed off. Then you point out that what hurts about others' comments is that part of us buys into the insult and thinks there is at least a grain of truth to it. If we could stop doing that, we'd be immune.

Easier said than done. My argument to this troll/hacker dude who has done some real harm to people's lives is that any day you pick to taunt someone might be the day they are teetering on the edge of being suicidal. You can't "help" them if they kill themselves! These people are messing with dynamite like it's a firecracker.

This weird kind of spiritual troll-ism to "save" us from our wrong-headed path is just bizarre to me. All I can say to such people is that this is my life and if I choose badly and suffer in the future, that's my responsibility. I don't need you to be my spiritual nursemaid. Take that time and attend to your own spiritual path.

ETA: another example of "saving someone" by haranguing them:

Mi Vida Loca

This post has been edited by Tapati: Aug 5 2008, 10:07 PM

[Tapati]

And by the way, wasn't it Tarun who wrote the following?

'Follow your bliss', Tapati? There is something called responsibility, a practice Ananda is hardly a champion of. For all these years he experimented with different groups and individuals, and with each experiment he knew things were not as his readers might perceive they were. But he never bothered, until the last minute, until he had in fact already abandoned yet another ship, to give so much as a hint of what was going on with him personally. And so, even as passengers in the background were left to drown, for all he cared Ananda was 'following his bliss', the latest his escapade to Neverland to frolick with the pixies and to razz The Captain. O yeah sure, he dedicated years of his life to everyone's cause, putting up websites and media whatnots on his own dime. But had anyone suggested he might get objective support if he actually did something needed, he would not hear of it. He played as he decided, with the toys of his choices. And when things ceased to be fun, he simply equally walked away from friends and foes as if these were the same in consequence. Something Ananda knows well is that following and being deceived are two very different things. It is his responsibility to talk about that now, and not, irresponsibly again, opine that whatever anyone is doing is fine so long as he is still widely visited, so long people keep talking about him.

July 31, 2008 7:20 PM
Anonymous Honest Abe said...

I personally feel no bitterness towards Ananda baba for his life choices or renouncing Gaudiya Vaishnavism and all the Vaishnavas.

But, it does appear that in the process of changing his stripes that he wanted to hurt as many Vaishnavas as deeply as he could on his way out.

Otherwise, he would have just vanished into thin air without leaving a trace of his whereabouts or any links to his new blog and diary.

If he were not intent on breaking as many hearts as he could and hurting as many devotees as he could, he would have just vanished without a trace.

But no, he wanted to make sure that all those following his life and his works were hurt as badly as possibly as he became a spiritual suicide bomber within the Vaishnava community.

So, Ananda is not really a nice guy. He is malicious and ill-intentioned. He wants to hurt as many Vaishnavas as he can on his way out the door as he embraces atheism in the form of Buddhism.

Ananda, just shut it all down and disappear. That is the only honest, noble and decent thing to do.

Not only did you stab so many Vaishnavas in the heart but you took the knife and twisted it vigorously with your proud and shameless boasting about having become an atheist.

Just disappear.
Leave not a trace.
That is the only decent thing to do.

It's not for me, because I really don't care.
You can't hurt me.
It is all the simple and sincere Vaishnavas that you are hurting that I am pleading for.

Just vanish.
Find your happiness in your new found friends and Buddhist bullshit.

Don't leave links, trails and traces to the Vaishnava community.

Just vanish...... poof..... be gone.

Your only purpose in linking this blog to your old web site is for the purpose of insulting, hurting and discouraging the many devotees who had regard, respect and love for you.

Get lost Baba.
That is really the right thing to do for you.

August 1, 2008 5:30 AM

Nice to know he's not bitter or anything...

[Kalisurfer]

Do you have experiences with trolls and stalkers who try to make your new soup sour with incredible persistence and obstinacy, having left the cult folds?

In my experiences and opinion, It does seem that trolls and stalkers can exist and be a common occurrence in political or religious groups who are out to change the world with a worldview that is inclusive and messianic in various ways. The angry protectors of the creed do not take kindly to people leaving the nest to fly solo, especially if they see them join or take on ideas of an opposing group. This is when you are branded a traitor and all types of theories emerge to how mistaken or confused the departed are. It is in the interest of the true believers left behind who may have self esteem problems or hidden doubts themselves, to make the one who left look damaged, unintelligent or misguided, mainly in order to shore up their own belief system, that may not be fully realized and based on putting all their faith onto a leader or system of instructions that give them security, and soothes their fear of anything that lies outside their true belief thinking system.

Usually those left behind that are mature and grounded in their beliefs will really wish those who leave the best in following their personal path, in whatever direction it goes.

You are undoubtedly dealing with people not really grounded in their faith and beliefs, and somehow their insecurity is finding a voice in being vindictive and angry, which they somehow think is the best way of defending their faith.

Because you are making your spiritual journey public on blogs and websites Ananda, you are in the public domain and in the crosshairs of the insecurity-ites. It takes a thick skin and perhaps it’s best to ignore the criticism and keep going on with your journey as best as possible, or else just take a break from being so public for a while. The web allows for a dark hidden place where the fearful, vindictive angry ones can hide and attack in an anonymous way, which is nice way in saying, it's a comfy home for cowards. It can be a safe haven for people to do things they would never do in person, in fact, the web can be a very impersonal place for supposed religious personalists to show their skin deep realizations, allowing the dark hidden nature of humankind to become visible while they are in the guise of a professional religionist.

Stay strong and true to your vision and journey, and if possible, pay as little attention as possible to the immature angry ones left behind.

[Tapati]

Here's yet another perspective on how people turn on you if you leave their movement:

Deepak Chopra and the Maharishi

Chopra: "In some people's eyes I dropped Maharishi in order to launch myself. This perception has led to recriminations in the TM movement. One is faced with the sad spectacle of people striving to gain enlightenment while at the same vilifying anyone who dares to stray from the fold. Nothing I did after leaving Maharishi was premeditated."

Response in comments:

What is Chopra"s motivation to sell me his self-absorbed, self-serving, and self- promoting story at the delicate time of Maharishi"s passing. Why does he need an audience to hear him degrade Maharishi as a petty and jealous man, whose ego and pride feels competitive and threatened by Chopra, and at the same time promotes himself as the glorious hero. It sounds like Maharishi knew Chopra better than he knew himself after all.

Clearly in the simplest of terms, Chopra"s own heart and pride is being reflected back to him. This is what happens. He hints at it, but is unwilling to accept it. He instead blames it on Maharishi and leaves. For someone else with a different make up, their emotional baggage might come up for them too, but it would be different stuff according to who they are. For Chopra it was jealousy, pride, and ego. I have seen many "Chopras" come and go in the TM Movement. It is a difficult position. When you are close to Maharishi, you willingly step right into the fire of purification. In addition like Maharishi, your sole focus around the clock with unending hours and very little sleep is to serve humankind without any personal profit. There are only a handful of rare individuals that have continued to serve Maharishi in that kind of intense capacity.

It is interesting that Chopra voices concern about the opinion of millions of TM meditators who may think he "dropped Maharishi in order to launch himself" and at the same time calls them a "sad spectacle of people trying to gain enlightenment."

The only sad spectacle that I see is someone still stuck in their own crap of fifteen years ago and still blaming it on someone else.

To quote Maharishi: "The world is as we are."

[Milla]

Ananda, you must have some internet charisma or X-factor, although I can't really picture you as a wannabe guru. But, having read your blog a bit, I am wondering if you are an only child.

[Ananda]

Ananda, you must have some internet charisma or X-factor, although I can't really picture you as a wannabe guru.

Oh, we are working on a kick-ass cult as I speak. Subgenius and Ron L. will go down the drain of history as small-timers...

But, having read your blog a bit, I am wondering if you are an only child.

Oh, I dearly hope so!

[Ananda]

Ananda, you must have some internet charisma or X-factor, although I can't really picture you as a wannabe guru.

Oh, we are working on a kick-ass cult as I speak. Subgenius and Ron L. will go down the drain of history as small-timers...

But, having read your blog a bit, I am wondering if you are an only child.

Oh, I dearly hope so!

Oh, I'm sorry — I misread you! I read "If you are only a child"... I actually do have a younger sister, by four years, but we've lived separately ever since our parents' divorce when I was 10. I lived with my father, she lived with my mother, and we met on weekends on kids-only visits to the other parent's house.

[Ananda]

U ja ja, how deep down the pits some of these minds are...

[0Stribor0]

Just really makes me feel silly reading some of the posts above from the people after Anandajis departure. It seems to me that he was idolized like a Guru and some pop icon. For myself, he was my then gurubrother (now and always a friend) and a person with advanced knowledge of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Some who looked upon him as some sort of a Guru, and were most of the time just really cheesy with him, pretending to be his friends, were exactly the ones to turn against him when Madhava became Ananda and ultimately left behind Gaudiya institutions and his old beliefs. People who still are his friends, like Franz and Dave, were always honest and straightforward people.Those two i personally view as the very rare devotees and personalities who recognize spiritual over material matter.
It is very easy to throw stones at somebody, but it is sad not to see and recognize your own dirt in the heart first.

[angrezi]

why do GVs seem to always be looking for someone to idolize and guide them? Are other religions this syncophantic ?

[Tapati]

why do GVs seem to always be looking for someone to idolize and guide them? Are other religions this syncophantic ?

Well, look at the Pope and the various Protestant leaders that got idolized like Fallwell and Robertson. But perhaps Western disciples are particularly insecure about their place in the GV world and cling more to the guru model than they should.

If you truly become what you think about at death, will there soon be Ananda clones around the world?

[Brainiac]

"Using toilet paper is very good. Because, Mayavadis become trees and toilet paper is made of trees. So, when you wipe your ass with toilet paper you are wiping your ass with a Mayavadi. I think that is a good thing."

- Kshamabuddhi das ACBSP @ HalfSatori

[zvs]

Ananda, I read your Vraja-journal, and found it ever so disheartening that when you left Radha-kund and GV, you encountered the same angry attacks on your character, motivations, choices, etc., and the same snide bickering, as I did when I left ISKCON. I had always hoped it was different somewhere...

[Ananda]

Ananda, I read your Vraja-journal, and found it ever so disheartening that when you left Radha-kund and GV, you encountered the same angry attacks on your character, motivations, choices, etc., and the same snide bickering, as I did when I left ISKCON. I had always hoped it was different somewhere...

Yea, it's the same old everywhere, in different flavors. It incidentally also happened to me in Gaudiya Math. Wherever there are absolute beliefs and fundamental values, this response pattern seems to be integral.

[Brainiac]

Yea, it's the same old everywhere, in different flavors. It incidentally also happened to me in Gaudiya Math. Wherever there are absolute beliefs and fundamental values, this response pattern seems to be integral.

Mind you, and I always meant to ask, much of the criticism you received after leaving TGV came from IGM-types, did they not? If not from some Western-oriented TGVs themselves. How did the Vaishnava community at Radhakund itself treat you or react to your leaving?