mahayana buddhism, emptiness reconsidered Options

[Brainiac]

Buddhism has got an increasing following in the West arguably because of the activity of the Dalai Lama, and the celebrity followers such as Richard Gere, Tina Turner, etc. I never thought much about him but recently there was a cover story on him in TIME magazine. I rolled my eyes in a bored yawn and read it, expecting it to be a same-old-same-old article about the Chinese occupation of Tibet and what the DL is trying to do about it. But it was actually quite a good article about how the DL proposes "practical" spirituality and is completely unafraid of disposing of those elements of Buddhist theology/philosophy that are inconsistent with modern science. He apparently spends a lot of time discussing science with scientists, psychologists, neuroscientists, etc., and how he incorporates all this in his political strategy and leadership. The Pope and other spiritual leaders (GBC etc) can learn something from this guy. Not everything is sweetness and light about him though.

Anyway I just wanted to mention that I caught an hour-long interview with him today on NDTV (Indian news tv channel). Here's the article about it: http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story...EWEN20080045376 for anyone who's interested.

You can watch some of it on YouTube also. Oh yes, here's the TIME article too., do yourselves a favour and read the 'Print' version to get rid of all those pesky advertisements.

I'm not totally enamoured with the DL but my estimation of him has improved a little after viewing these two separate media pieces.

[Gerard]

but to say Tibetans should appreciate the Chinese takeover, where they are considered second class citizens to the new Chinese settlers that the government is pushing into the country, where they are allowed to come in and take Tibetan land and property and claim it as their own, with Chinese Law backing the ethnic Chinese over the Tibetans, is a stretch of the imagination and a total buying in of Chinese Government propaganda.

True, and the whole story of "historic rights" is BS; strategically Tibet is important and large deposits of gold & uranium were found, they also rob the Tibetans of their timber etc.
But the salient points of that article were: why did the DL say that karma is only for Buddhists, and if you believe in karma why do you protest?

[Brainiac]

But the salient points of that article were: why did the DL say that karma is only for Buddhists, and if you believe in karma why do you protest?

This is the type of thing that doesn't liberate Buddhism from the class of 'religion'. Many people (at least, many Buddhists or people with Buddhist interests that I have talked to) say that they enjoy reading about or practicing Buddhist ideas because it frees them from the guilt-trip associated with other religions such as Christianity and Islam. Because Buddhism apparently doesn't have a "god figure" that one answers to, it is supposed to be 'trendy' in some ways.

But its not theology that Buddhism needs to worry about. It still believes in silly things like karma and reincarnation.

I find it incredibly interesting that the DL would say karma exists only for Buddhists. Is that an instance of Buddhism or the DL succumbing to the type of closed-mindedness that eventually characterises every religion?

[Dhyana]

I find it incredibly interesting that the DL would say karma exists only for Buddhists. Is that an instance of Buddhism or the DL succumbing to the type of closed-mindedness that eventually characterises every religion?

My spontaneous feeling when reading that passage was that he meant he wouldn't try to "sell" the concept of children suffering from their previous karma to non-Buddhists, considering it a hopeless undertaking. That he would only teach it to those who are already Buddhists.

I very seriously doubt he meant children of non-Buddhists suffer for any other reason than karma.

[Gerard]

I find it incredibly interesting that the DL would say karma exists only for Buddhists. Is that an instance of Buddhism or the DL succumbing to the type of closed-mindedness that eventually characterises every religion?

No, I think Austin was right when he thought that the "Dalai Lama made a critical public relations error by speaking the truth too clearly and unambiguously". I don't know whether you construe that as "the DL succumbing to the type of closed-mindedness that eventually characterises every religion".

[Brainiac]

Thanks Dhyana and Softbrain.

I never thought much about him but recently there was a cover story on him in TIME magazine. I rolled my eyes in a bored yawn and read it, expecting it to be a same-old-same-old article about the Chinese occupation of Tibet and what the DL is trying to do about it. But it was actually quite a good article about how the DL proposes "practical" spirituality and is completely unafraid of disposing of those elements of Buddhist theology/philosophy that are inconsistent with modern science. He apparently spends a lot of time discussing science with scientists, psychologists, neuroscientists, etc., and how he incorporates all this in his political strategy and leadership. The Pope and other spiritual leaders (GBC etc) can learn something from this guy. Not everything is sweetness and light about him though.

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Oh yes, here's the TIME article too., do yourselves a favour and read the 'Print' version to get rid of all those pesky advertisements.

Did anyone read this article? What did you think of it?

To me, the DL seems more of a political leader than a religious one, albeit with a certain spiritual element. Methinks he fits the definition of a rajarishi...

[angrezi]

I read some of it, but there seems nothing new. He hasn't really changed his line. Any leadership role involves politics religious or not. I think he would not have sought out his world role, but China marched into the country 50 years ago with the intent on dismantling their culture (while the world didn't seem to notice), so whats a guy to do? Tibet would have likely remained a quiet (if somewhat archaic) Himalayan country like Bhutan.

Like anybody he must be judged according to what he says and does, and this dosn't sound so bad:

Always stressing that the Buddha's own words should be thrown out if they are shown by scientific inquiry to be flawed, the Dalai Lama is the rare religious figure who tells people not to get needlessly confused or distracted by religion ("Even without a religion, we can become a good human being"). No believer in absolute truth—he eagerly seeks out Catholics, neuroscientists, even regular travelers to Tibet who can instruct him—he is also the rare Tibetan who will suggest that old Tibet may have contributed in part to its current predicament, the rare Buddhist to tell foreigners not to take up Buddhism but to study within their own traditions, where their roots are deepest.

I respect madhurya bhava, kaupins, and pink dhotis, but I would rather see a figure like this on the world stage than ACBS for sure

[Gerard]

China marched into the country 50 years ago with the intent on dismantling their culture (while the world didn't seem to notice), 

I hate to say this, but the CIA did support and arm the Tibetan resistance until 1972 when the ping-pong diplomacy of Kissinger-Nixon put an end to that. Up to 1972 the resistance was able to keep the Chinese pretty much out of the country because there was only one road in, so the East-Tibetan Khamba's (who are non-buddhists, so allowed to use violence against intruders) could break up the incoming convoys.

[angrezi]

China marched into the country 50 years ago with the intent on dismantling their culture (while the world didn't seem to notice), 

I hate to say this, but the CIA did support and arm the Tibetan resistance until 1972 when the ping-pong diplomacy of Kissinger-Nixon put an end to that. Up to 1972 the resistance was able to keep the Chinese pretty much out of the country because there was only one road in, so the East-Tibetan Khamba's (who are non-buddhists, so allowed to use violence against intruders) could break up the incoming convoys.

yes, I forgot about that, I read that recently. The CIA are busy beavers. But I was under the impression, by the autobiography of Trungpa (he fled in '59) and others, that the Chinese came in quite quickly and were more or less in total control by the early to mid-1960's. The CIA, and the rest of the goons, were more interested, and commited, in Vietnam (and surrounding environs) at that time

[Brainiac]

I respect madhurya bhava, kaupins, and pink dhotis, but I would rather see a figure like this on the world stage than ACBS for sure

For real. Have you noticed how the DL is better than the Pope too? It didn't take Ratzinger long to kick up several fusses, and all this stuff about new sins being invented is all a matter of lunacy.

[kalki]

I recently met a Bon Po follower who claimed Tibetan Buddhism stole the previous shamanic traditions and that Buddhism was actually not from India as claimed by the orthodox. His master, whom I cant remember who he is, is a representative of a rare lineage. This master of Bon Po, which I dont know too much about, tells his followers to be wary of Tibetan Buddhists as they are too aligned with state and organised religion? Could they be like Catholics who Christianized previous pagan traditions? They do seem to be very friendly to the Vatican and even the CIA was into a free Tibet. But I am no expert. I personally think one can see influence and borrowings as hijacking, if one looks in a certain way and anyway one can learn from that which is hijacked about the thing which was hijacked previously anyway.

His guru may have been Namkhai Norbu who is a Bon Po master that has a place in San Diego CA I think as well as in Mexico somewhere.

Tibetan Buddhism is a lineage of the teachings from India from Shakyamuni Buddha and was brought to Tibet by Indian Mahasiddha, Padmasambhava or Guru Rinpoche. Or rather he was the one who came on the request of King Songtsen Gampo in order to defeat the Bon religion which was thought to be mixed with black magic. He defeated the gods of the Bon and made them all promise to be promoters of the Dharma in the form of Dharma protectors. Then they could all stay in Tibet.

Next came Shantiraksita who gave the teachings to the King and Padmasambhava also continued lineages and took a Tibetan consort as well as a Nepali one.

Namkhai Norbu says that historically, the teachings of a previous Buddha already came to Tibet long ago which helped to establish the Bon teachings. I think the teacher attributed to the main lineage is Shenrab Miwo. Also medicine, and astrology and Tibetan language is said to have all been developed before interaction with India. Tibetan scholars seem to discredit this saying that the Tibetan language is based on the Sanskrit language. While this is true, it de-emphasizes that Tibet already had an evolved language before Sanskrit.

Just a side comment, the bit about the Bon gods promising to be protect the Dharma is a bit like Lord Shiva represented as the greatest Vaishnava. I think in general when we see a god subservient to another god, it bespeaks of one cult conquering another.

[babu]

Just a side comment, the bit about the Bon gods promising to be protect the Dharma is a bit like Lord Shiva represented as the greatest Vaishnava.  I think in general when we see a god subservient to another god, it bespeaks of one cult conquering another.

except that shiva conquered vishnu and then the vaisnavas were sore losers and couldn't accept defeat and wrote stories with vishnu winning

[Brainiac]

except that shiva conquered vishnu and then the vaisnavas were sore losers and couldn't accept defeat and wrote stories with vishnu winning

If Shiva and Vishnu got into a fight, Vishnu would lose despite having four arms to pack four times the punch. Here is the proof from scripture.

However, if you read the part of that scripture where Krishna and Shiva get into a fight, Krishna wins. This is proof that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, even above Vishnu.

[Kalisurfer]

Hints on which values and principles that the Dalai Lama has structured his life on. I like them all very much, for they seem to simple practical common sense type of choices to structure a decent life on. I feel decent, intelligent caring people do much of this instinctually. I do wish these were the values and rules I was asked to take to heart when I was initiated as a devotee so many years ago (especially No.5), instead of the four regulation I was asked to adhere to blindly, for I think it would of motivated myself and many within the community I was living in to be more caring, compassionate, open minded, inquisitive and more fully human, allowing more interactivity with the real world at hand, but then again, all was meant to be what it was by personal choices made at that particular time and place.

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

1) Take into account that great love and great achievements involve great risk.

2) When you lose, don’t lose the lesson.

3) Follow the three R’s:
- Respect for self,
- Respect for others and
- Responsibility for all your actions.

4) Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful stroke of luck.

5) Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.

6) Don’t let a little dispute injure a great relationship.

7) When you realize you’ve made a mistake, take immediate steps to correct it.

8) Spend some time alone every day.

9) Open your arms to change, but don’t let go of your values.

10) Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.

11) Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and
think back, you’ll be able to enjoy it a second time.

12) A loving atmosphere in your home is the foundation for your life.

13) In disagreements with loved ones, deal only with the current situation. Don’t bring up the past.

14) Share your knowledge. It is a way to achieve immortality.

15) Be gentle with the earth.

16) Once a year, go someplace you’ve never been before.

17) Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for each other exceeds your need for each other.

18) Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

19) If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.

20) If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[Kalisurfer]

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‎"Compassionate action starts
with seeing yourself when you start to make yourself right
and when you start to make yourself wrong.
At that point you could just contemplate the fact
that there is a larger alternative to either of those,
a more tender, shaky kind of place where you could live."
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—Pema Chödrön
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[kalki]

I find it incredibly interesting that the DL would say karma exists only for Buddhists. Is that an instance of Buddhism or the DL succumbing to the type of closed-mindedness that eventually characterises every religion?

My spontaneous feeling when reading that passage was that he meant he wouldn't try to "sell" the concept of children suffering from their previous karma to non-Buddhists, considering it a hopeless undertaking. That he would only teach it to those who are already Buddhists.

I very seriously doubt he meant children of non-Buddhists suffer for any other reason than karma.

He definitely meant that in the sense that he doesn't want to sell it to non-Buddhists. Here is the exact quote again:

" So, are disabled children being punished for sins in a past life? "Oh yes. Of course." Suddenly, one of his entourage - dormant until now - leaps up and speaks quickly to the Dalai Lama in Tibetan. He turns to me.

"This is for Buddhists! Only for Buddhists! Last question now, please. We must hurry." Now I glance at my watch. We are meant to have more time, but the entourage is vibrating strangely, whirling around the room, and talking in Tibetan."

After the DL said that, his aid murmured to him probably that his comment could seem too pushy, and then he quickly changed it to say that it was a statement meant for Buddhists.

I have seen the Dalali Lama speak at least 7 times by now, live, so i have heard him specify this kind of thing before.