ISKCONy Habits Options

[rhapsodieff]

I'd rather follow the men.....

[babu]

One cultural ISKCON leftover in me has to do with my behavior around men (friends and work colleagues excepted). I still have to brace myself to accept it when a man holds up a door for me. I'd rather they went ahead and left me behind.

Also, I gaze downwards or fix my gaze at infinity when in proximity of scantily dressed men. At the gym, for instance. I keep eye contact very cursory with male strangers, even in contexts that are perfectly neutral and safe.

You wouldn't believe it, coming from a lusty woman like me! 

Beware of those lusty men lurking in the gyms! They are always looking for their next victim. You are doing right by not looking at them, because they would immediately translate your shy-Dhy gaze into a tempting message to follow you into the shower.

That is going on.

i have a simpler solution, don't take showers with the men

[zvs]

It's funny: Pretty much immediately after leaving K.C., I went back to my "old ways." It's not that they were seething underneath the whole time, like I was just dying to go back to them or something. It never really made sense in the first place to me to follow standards of Indian culture so wholly. I always got the idea that in iskcon, "Indian" equalled "spiritual." I didn't buy that, so I now happily eat however I like!

However, I'm wondering from this: Did any of you contract any deeper problems, beyond just mild conditionings and habits? There were certain things that completely got under my skin and wouldn't come out for years; bad, bad habits, but more on that another time.

[Apres Laulyam]

It's funny: Pretty much immediately after leaving K.C., I went back to my "old ways." It's not that they were seething underneath the whole time, like I was just dying to go back to them or something. It never really made sense in the first place to me to follow standards of Indian culture so wholly. I always got the idea that in iskcon, "Indian" equalled "spiritual." I didn't buy that, so I now happily eat however I like!

However, I'm wondering from this: Did any of you contract any deeper problems, beyond just mild conditionings and habits? There were certain things that completely got under my skin and wouldn't come out for years; bad, bad habits, but more on that another time.

Well zvs, it might seem on first read that I am 'through the hoop' so to speak. I was only in ISKCON for 8 years, from the time I was 22 or so to 30 or so. And that was 20 or so years ago. I nosed around on GR back in 2005, registered, but didn't really take part until recently. So on the face of it it was a done deal a long time ago.

But, I'm nosin' around again, for many reasons, not the least of which is that a good friend of mine found me here and tacked a message on the GR lamp post, so here I am. What fetched me about your question above was 'Did any of you contract any deeper problems, beyond just mild conditionings and habits? ' I will say that, PART of the inheritance to having been 'a Hare Krsna' is that I developed a habit of 'leaving worlds'. This is something that I am still dealing with today. I call it permanent culture shock, which I take to be an advantage, but it also leads to a feeling, just a feeling, of never fully casting in my chips in a way. Having lived through a sort of, hodge-podge of cataclysm of identity, and re-entry, I feel a bit always an exile. If I can leave one world, I feel well equipped to leave any world. Does that make sense?

I'll let you add your 'more on that another time'. For now though, your question is valuable to me because it let me know, upon reflection, that I am not making this up for drama's sake. (although I am able to make up some things for drama's sake, and I know it. ) After all, I jettisoned my family of origin, quite easily, for years. What else am I able to jettison then? I think, quite alot. This I call a habit of mind.

It is a puzzlement, there's pros and cons to it.

[la dique]

I think that many ISKCON/Indian habits are reasonable, that's why some people tend to follow them.
Like taking off shoes at home after walking around dirty pavements, washing hands
or not licking the spoon while preparing the meal.
Other are simply cultural habits internalized by some as members of a particular group.
For example, I've been taking shower or changing cloths, if the former was not possible,
after each 'longer' visit in lavatory. It's so deeply ingrained in me that I don't think of reasoning it.

[metamorphosis]

I think that many ISKCON/Indian habits are reasonable, that's why some people tend to follow them.
Like taking off shoes at home after walking around dirty pavements, washing hands
or not licking the spoon while preparing the meal.
Other are simply cultural habits internalized by some as members of a particular group.
For example, I've been taking shower or changing cloths, if the former was not possible,
after each 'longer' visit in lavatory. It so deeply ingrained in me that I don't think of reasoning it.

I agree, many of the habits are just good practice. Like using a Lota or water to wash after pooping, instead of smearing. I am pretty sure that my step dad would not have hemorrhoids of he did so.

At work many of my clients know that i am a Hare Krishna to some degree. One even sees me, and says Krishna! But he is really into Rastafari, so we have this chant. He says Krishna Rastafari, and i say Jaya!

[zvs]

At work many of my clients know that i am a Hare Krishna to some degree. One even sees me, and says Krishna! But he is really into Rastafari, so we have this chant. He says Krishna Rastafari, and i say Jaya!

That is classic. Rasta was kind of my comedown or "cool-off" after I left KC. I had left ISKCON in '02 or so and with so much depression about that organization and problems in my personal life bearing down, my 'sadhana' slipped greatly. As I alluded to, I then became involved with Narayana Maharaja. This was thanks to a girl I became engaged to at that time, who is his disciple. I started to feel really inspired all over again, but after a couple months, something just didn't seem right. I felt like I was faking it. I felt all the discomfort come back, even though I wasn't in ISKCON anymore. So I hung it up.

I still really believed in Truth and a higher reality and finding the meaning of life and not wasting my precious human form, etc etc, though. I started listening to a lot of dub/reggae around that time so the Rasta mood (rasta-rasa?) helped me out quite a bit for awhile. I never adopted any Judaic beliefs (never been a great fan of the bible) but I found such an appealing mysticism in reggae music and "Jah love" that I guess I was a quasi-white lion for awhile.

And then I lost my faith altogether, but once again... another story!!!

[zvs]

I'll let you add your 'more on that another time'.

What I'm referring to is Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, the most damaging and lasting effect of my time in ISKCON.

I could write a whole book on this, and have even taken steps toward doing so, but for now I will just touch on the important points.

I've always had "habits" or "tics." Like, when I was a little kid, I used to twitch my nose all the time. It drove my parents crazy, but I couldn't stop it. These habits would just come and go. So I probably had some neurological pre-disposition toward anxiety-based disorders. But it wasn't until ISKCON that it reached full blossom.

I think the first signs were when I read something in an ACBS book about how one should always chant the names of Krishna. I had already been doing 16 rounds and the whole bit then, but when I read that I felt an overwhelming sense of responsibility to fulfill it. So I started chanting under my breath at all times. I remember I needed some new clothes, and I was shopping at Kohl's, reciting the mahamantra over and over again, customers eyeing me cautiously - I felt I really had to do this. I later went to an evening program in Cleveland, and tried to bring up the topic of real devotion vs. doing "devotional" things because you're told to - or out of habit. I didn't fully understand my problem yet at that time, but I knew something was very wrong with my impetus. I cited this chanting habit, and everyone was floored. "Prabhu, I envy you!" "I wish I could always chant the names of Krishna." "You must be really advancing"... Nobody got that I was suffering from an irrational compulsion that I was forced from somewhere deep within to obey, even though it felt wrong to me.

I also remember, every time I made prasad, asking my parents if they wanted any before I ate. I read something in an ACBS book about the custom of offering your neighbors food before you eat. From then on, I positively had to obey this custom. I would go outside and stop my dad from working on his motorcyle in the garage to offer him a glass of hot milk - I felt so incredibly embarrassed and weird, but I absolutely had to do it.

Later would come more very severe forms. I will talk about them in my blog in the near future. For now, I'll say that I entered into a period where I constantly felt that I was unclean in the eyes of God and had to constantly ritually purify myself. (A verse from the Bhagavatam kicked this off, along with all the "brahminical" standards of bodily purity I learned in the temple.) If I didn't complete this purification, by way of long, intense showers, multiple times a day, then everything I did would be tainted. People I talked to would be hurt or contaminated, songs I wrote would cause problems for those who heard them, Krishna would reject my service. I used to stand in the shower for two hours, unable to "get clean," crying and screaming, beating my fists against the walls and yet unable to shut off the water and get out. If I were in public or with others and suddenly felt "unclean," and couldn't leave and take care of it, I would completely withdraw from all activities and conversation around me, lest I contaminate it all.

This lasted for long after I left ISKCON and KC. In fact, I did not overcome it until 2004, and I only did it by losing faith in God. Before then, I had reached a near-suicidal point with it, and had taken to spending as much of the day as possible in bed, only getting up when I had to meet somebody or do something, for fear that if I got up earlier I would become "unclean" in the interim and have to take another shower to fix it.

Unfortunately, once I overcame it philosophically, my brain said, "Well, I still have a disorder, so now I'll have to affect you some other way." So then I came down with crippling anxiety disorder. I would constantly worry about nothing, to the point of physical sickness. It got so bad that I couldn't concentrate in class, and had to drop out of college.

[Brainiac]

That's an amazing story, ZVS, thank you for relating it. I will look forward to your further writings but I wondered if you have attempted to get some form of help for it?

And how sorry I am that you felt you had to drop out of college. Your story confirms some things that I have been thinking over for a long time. When I read all of that above, I found it interesting how you say your "attacks" were brought about by certain scriptural injunctions or devotional practices, I'll have to agree with that because I have also found that religion has this peculiar effect of installing these types of completely unnecessary anxieties and neuroses such as ritual cleanliness in people, as well as other things that are alien to their nature. And how you felt rejecting it all was the only way you could retain control is also greatly interesting.

To answer your earlier question about repercussions from ISKCON practices, in my own experience I could say that Ekadasi is also one of those anxiety-producing practices when practised in it's pure form. I wonder if anyone found out how the observation of Ekadasi should be undertaken, instead of the heavily compromised way they do it in IGM? Just reading the rules alone will sink the heart. And I'm not even going to start on the guilt it produces when the occasion is missed. I just about managed to complete the whole vrata after a fair bit of practice. And the absolutely ridiculous thing they say that it is a day to spend all of your time in remembrance of Krishna when it takes all you can muster just to abide by the millions of rules? That if you fail, you, your family, your entire dynasty (well, ten generations or so) will be condemned to the most extreme forms of excruciating torture for eternity? Christianity much? No wonder the Upanishads say that walking the spiritual path is like walking on a razor's edge, no sane man would thus walk on it.

[Apres Laulyam]

zvs, that is harrowing, and yes, thanks for telling it. It really helps (me) to understand that whatever permutations and repercussions we have, they may either take years to surface, or years to heal.

I was also struck by the thought that trying to be a devotee of Krsna did not happen in a vacuum, that there may have been some personal characteristic or strength or weakness, and this 'joined in' with our feeling attracted to KC, or may have joined in to our KC experience in such a way that it was exacerbated. I'm thinking of devotees with epilepsy for instance, or diabetes, or any other kind of fear or burdern or proclivity to dis-ease.

I don't mean to say that only dis-ease was brought to the fore by our practices; could also have been a flowering of scholarship or reading and loving the poetry of some scriptures. Or being musically inclined, or making friends easily, and finding out this melded in with 'doing sankirtana/sales/the pick, what have you.

I mean to say, that your telling of how your compulsiveness, dove-tailed with the admonition to 'wash' and 'purify' yourself. I do not take it lightly that you describe your leaving off God altogether as a moment of anguish and crisis but certainly also faced, a sort of cohesive effort to 'save yourself'! This resonates with me, although I didn't at the time of leaving have a diagnosable illness. But I think it was a time of 'individuation', to get myself away and regroup, and that is how, in part, I take what you have said. It was manifesting in you from all sides, spiritual, physical, mental, and all these aspects 'came together' when you parted a ways.

Ahm, I'm going to go out on a limb here, (something that didn't always serve me well in ISKCON), and if there is a Krsna, (of which I'm not sure), then I can't see how there can be any sin, any ultimate sundering, of relationship, if we must dance away for a time, or withdraw from something that confounds our relationship with ourselves.
This happens all the time between people, and if God is a person, we can only meet her or him or them or it, as wholly as we can at any particular time. Whatever we have to do to preserve a relationship whether it be to anyone, God, whatever, if the experience of coming close, however we do it, or THINK we're doing it, or want to do it, this coming close to people is the same whether it's to God or Goddess or boinking off the brahma-jyoti for a few millennia, as it is when we come close to people our size, in our dimension. If we must, or THINK we must, tear ourselves apart to relate, then maybe it's just time to dance away, and see what that's about, without fretting that we're doing wrong or losing someone forever. After all, we are just as essential to the relationship as that other is.

I'm sorry but I'm reminded of Ginger Rogers dancing with Fred Astaire; 'backwards and in high heels'. Something about reciprocity, and perfection, and trying not to step on anyone's toes. Pah!

[Apres Laulyam]

As far as little things go:

I wear mismatched socks.
It would not shock me to see someone eating halava out of tin foil at a laundramat.
I take my shoes off when I enter someone's home, no matter if they do or not. I just like it.
I will always be drawn to (good) incense, pictures of Krsna or his whatever, all of it, aall his manifestations. Indian restaurant, picture of Ganesh by the cash register, like it. Feel right at home.

I still think saris are among the most beautiful garments ever thought up. I'll never wear one again. My gut reaction is to think people in dhotis must know something. ('a well dressed man', it's a weakness, I"m often disappointed.)

I still say 'Hare Krsna' if I kill a bug.

If I hear a kirtan or bhajan I feel confused.

I respect people's altars, I like altars, I'm attracted to them, no matter what is on them.

I still think dawn is one of the best times to be awake. But I HATED getting up early most of the time in iskcon. But now I like it. Just give me time, don't get in my face and don't rush me.

At first I loved having a 'schedule', every single thing had a time and a place and I was on the bead all the time, doing the existential best.
At first. Now I still have trouble with 'free time' but I guard it jealously none the less. I'll figure it out.

I still can't believe any deities were actually dressed in tartan. That was a precious moment. Very funny and strange.

Prabhupada's Bengali, syntax and speech patterns have forever bled into stuff I say or write, sometimes without realizing. It has flavoured my speech for years, but there was nobody to notice. hahaha

If someone offers me something I shouldn't really have but I want I sometimes say 'never again will I eat mango' and it just goes by.

I don't like to hear people who were never in ISKCON disparage it. But I don't flinch from anything I read, concerning ISKCON, from a former/or present devotee. I recognize that this is the same dynamic that takes place within many other sub-cultures. People appropriate meaning in a lexicon of happiness, or bitterness, that has a special sting from the inside. That's just the way it is.

I second guess myself alot; maybe I had that before, but I certainly do have it now. It's not a bad thing, but it wars with my impulsiveness, or should I say, spontaneity. Like, 'when's the penny gonna drop'. It is an oscillation, and maybe if I live long enough I'll come out like Emily Dickinson, OR Chuck Bukowski, OR both at the same time, healthy, jolly and whole.

I still think drinking pints of honey if you're trying not to, have or be a sex, is a foolish idea.

[zvs]

That's an amazing story, ZVS, thank you for relating it. I will look forward to your further writings but I wondered if you have attempted to get some form of help for it?

I did. After many years and attempts at various medications, including one that caused convulsions and loss of equilibrium, I found that a small daily dosage of Zoloft (sertraline) keeps my brain more or less in order, without instilling any personality changes or other side effects, apart from the occasional attack of severe heartburn.

I still harbor some less dire forms of the disease; for example, I often have to repeat certain phrases in my head and tap on surfaces a certain number of times. I often have to do things in balance (IE, what the left hand does, the right hand must copy). I can't stand the number three or any of its multiples. I do other weird things, like blinking my eyes rhythmically, moving my head in a swooping motion, etc. I have been made fun of for it. None of these habits existed until my introduction to a highly ritualized religious organization. Which brings me to:

Your story confirms some things that I have been thinking over for a long time. When I read all of that above, I found it interesting how you say your "attacks" were brought about by certain scriptural injunctions or devotional practices, I'll have to agree with that because I have also found that religion has this peculiar effect of installing these types of completely unnecessary anxieties and neuroses such as ritual cleanliness in people, as well as other things that are alien to their nature.

All the available literature on OCD states that a vast, vast majority never seek treatment, largely out of embarrassment or fear of losing the security of the rituals. I personally believe that highly ritualized religious environments must be breeding grounds for this disorder. I don't believe that they could create it in a person with an otherwise healthy brain, but for someone with pre-existing anxiety or seratonin deficiency, I think it's the final kick to making something really bad happen. I'm guessing, in accordance with the general stats on OCD, that most religious people who have it have never said anything, or worse yet, believe their neurosis to be a valid part of their spirituality. I tried to explore this topic further in the past, and even wrote a sociologist who did a study on ISKCON devotees and found that they had a high level of compulsiveness. He disagreed with me that this compulsiveness reached the level of OCD, though; he just felt that the movement either attracted or encouraged compulsive personalities that weren't compulsive in a disorder-ly sense. I have an innate conviction that he missed something, but alas, I'm not the one with the Ph.D.

And how you felt rejecting it all was the only way you could retain control is also greatly interesting.

It was a gradual process; I didn't kill God in order to save myself, per se. My desire for truth and devotion was (and, somehow, still is) ridiculously strong. I would have accepted all the pain of any disorder coming to me before I sacrificed my beliefs to mitigate the pain. It was losing my faith - independent of any consideration of my problems - that lead to my ability to overcome the OCD. After that seismic shift in thought, I had an epiphany that went something like this:

1. I no longer believe that a supernatural entity is observing or influencing my life.
2. My obsessive compulsions pre-suppose the existence of a supernatural entity; otherwise, how would the results of the rituals be enforced.
3. Wherefore, my OCD is an entirely meaningless, silly ruse.

But that's still not enough to overcome such deep conditioning and fear, so I had this one, too:

1. I believe in freedom.
2. I believe in standing up for myself.
3. My OCD is restraining me, and victimizing me.
4. Wherefore, my having OCD equates to me being a weak hypocrite.

After that, I never took another ritual shower again. Voila. The mind is higher than the brain after all, perhaps?

[zvs]

A story about the onset.

[Homer]

After that, I never took another ritual shower again. Voila. The mind is higher than the brain after all, perhaps?

At one stage while performing deity worship I was taking something like twelve showers a day.

One time I forgot to shower after taking a small bite of prasadam and after I finished my service I recalled my lack of showering and wondered what reaction I was supposed to fear.

Hell of a way to make a living.

[Brainiac]

It was a gradual process; I didn't kill God in order to save myself, per se. My desire for truth and devotion was (and, somehow, still is) ridiculously strong. I would have accepted all the pain of any disorder coming to me before I sacrificed my beliefs to mitigate the pain. It was losing my faith - independent of any consideration of my problems - that lead to my ability to overcome the OCD.

I'm sure, and that is what I find so interesting. Perhaps I should qualify my earlier comment: I find it interesting how you managed to find a course of action (losing faith) in order to get on the path to overcoming OCD. I wonder if other OCD-sufferers are capable of this; able to identify the root causes of their problem and then arriving at a solution for it, with a fair amount of courage necessary.

I'm really waiting for Dhyana to get back from her vacation, I suspect she will be very interested in these topics. My own interests lie in schizophrenia, Alzheimers and other mental disorders and I've never really considered OCD very much. In fact it was only recently that I linked to a couple of OCD-related studies via my Twitter because of a review article I recently read. So there's me having a glimmer of interest in OCD (at last!) and then you bring your own experience of OCD in a religious context. Fascinating!

A story about the onset.

For what it's worth I don't think it was overkill at all, I was left wanting more. You write and explain very well and I hope you continue.

[zvs]

I wonder if other OCD-sufferers are capable of this; able to identify the root causes of their problem and then arriving at a solution for it, with a fair amount of courage necessary.

I'm actually supposed to, at some point, discuss this very topic on a radio show with Dr. Jeffrey Schwartz, who wrote The Mind and the Brain: Neuroplasticity and the Power of Mental Force. When and if that happens, I'll post a link to the show's archive.

In fact it was only recently that I linked to a couple of OCD-related studies via my Twitter because of a review article I recently read. So there's me having a glimmer of interest in OCD (at last!) and then you bring your own experience of OCD in a religious context. Fascinating!

It's a very unique and interesting disorder, and one that more people need to understand. When I briefly studied psychology at the university, the discussion of OCD was fraught with laughter. The students thought it was soooo ridiculously funny that some guy kept becoming convinced that he had run someone over and had to keep going back and checking points along the road to make sure he hadn't. I suppose they didn't consider that because of this, he lost jobs, missed exams in college, and was horrifically depressed. I also see OCD thrown around a lot as a catch phrase or media commodity. For example, that show Monk, where the protagonist is so loveable and adorable because of his cute little quirks. Those quirks, in real life, would make him painfully embarrassed and likely deeply depressed. Or how I found "OCD soap" at some gift shop in Cleveland, or how people say things like, "I'm so OCD about my living room, I always have to keep it clean." People don't understand that OCD is a serious, debilitating disorder wherein one has a delusional, irrational fear that they know is ridiculous and yet have to abate by perfectly executing an accompanying ritual. They constantly are aware that what they're going through is pointless, but failure to perform the ritual correctly, or at all, results in an inability to do anything and an intense, piercing, pervading sense of terror.

If you study schizofrenia, you likely encounter the same frustration with people thinking it's synonymous with Multiple Personality Disorder.

For what it's worth I don't think it was overkill at all, I was left wanting more. You write and explain very well and I hope you continue.

Oh, there will be more. =)

[zvs]

At one stage while performing deity worship I was taking something like twelve showers a day.

One time I forgot to shower after taking a small bite of prasadam and after I finished my service I recalled my lack of showering and wondered what reaction I was supposed to fear.

That sounds far too familiar. Do you still have any thoughts/behaviors like this?

[Homer]

At one stage while performing deity worship I was taking something like twelve showers a day.

One time I forgot to shower after taking a small bite of prasadam and after I finished my service I recalled my lack of showering and wondered what reaction I was supposed to fear.

That sounds far too familiar. Do you still have any thoughts/behaviors like this?

I have been studying myself to discover if any remnants are evident. For many years I did continue to perch myself on the edge of the toilet seat thinking it was a better position for complete success, however I have lowered my standards and I now sit on the pot like a karmi slob.

More leftover habits might be submerged in the subliminal fog or I could be in simple everyday denial.

[Kalisurfer]

For many years I did continue to perch myself on the edge of the toilet seat thinking it was a better position for complete success, however I have lowered my standards and I now sit on the pot like a karmi slob.

Consider it sitting on a karmi slob throne, from which you can rule the world from ... well ... at least the world of magazines and other interesting reading materials.