Did Srila Prabhupada chant his rounds properly?, What about the apparently missing sounds Options

[evakurvan]

hahahaha interesting post
i too think chanting it out loud especially with other people in the room chanting it out loud at the same time all at difference speeds and textures, moving each in different directions, each skipping their own individual syllables is some kind of recipe for mind implosion.

[Prisni]

Chanting the maha-mantra aloud always made my mind race in a disturbing way and gave me a sensation like my blood pressure was rising. About a year or two into the practice chanting would inevitably induce in me uncontrollably dark, self-destructive thoughts. I pray the Catholic Rosary aloud and it never has this effect; I always feel peaceful and content while I'm doing it. Back in my Vedanta Society days I did mental japa with a mantra I was given and that never induced mental racing or any negative sensations. It seems then that it's the combination of maha-mantra specifically and doing it aloud that drove me into aberrant mental states. I've since often wondered if the devotees' natural inclination to slack off and NOT chant their rounds is in fact a survival instinct being activated, that it's the healthy mind's effort to restore balance and not go insane.

After having left ISKCON, I could not use the hare krishna mantra for anything. It brought about flashbacks just by saying it once. And yet, I like the mantra. That's how I started to meditate quiet, in the mind, since that did not bring flashbacks. Then, after a while, I figured that I did not need to throw away the baby with the bathing water, but I could just throw away the dirty water and keep the baby. I did not come to ISKCON to find any spiritual path, I came specifically for the path of bhakti. If I am angry at ISKCON it is for turning it into something else, and saying that they have it, but actually have not.

What turned me back to the mantra was that I learned to understand how it expressed the bhakti I wanted, so everytime I say it, or think about it, I get reminded. That I find is something else than mumbling "my rounds" just because someone says so. If I chant, or meditate, as soon as I loose my focus, and fall into the ISKCON mumbling mood, I stop and either bring my focus back, or do something else. I never chant "rounds".

It appears that there is a certain "ISKCON mood", and being there one learns to get into that mood, with the help of the mantra and the particular style they have. The mantra is not mean for that at all, it is meant for getting into a deep loving mood. But they twist everything. Maybe I, like you, can still get into the agitated ISKCON mental state by chanting the mantra in the ISKCON way. So I don't.

[Milla]

Very well said, Prisni. Preyo, I like your points as well.

[angrezi]

my mind was conditioned in iskcon to space out as soon as I chanted the first mantra. it still has the same effect. its just too long in my opinion, at least for my brain. I think 5 or 8 syllable mantras better for japa

[Tapati]

Btw, Dave is selling another photo of Prabhupada, receiving a massage in New Vrndavana, on eBay.

You can see a better copy in our gallery here.

[0Seeking Truth0]

I was always told I was "imagining things" when I expressed that I found it disturbing that Prabhupada seemed to skip parts of the mantra in his chanting. I'm just starting to recover from this dysfunction and find it validating that others heard it too.

[0k_k0]

Since the fun is over on the other thread, I thought I'll look around for something else controversial, hence I ended up here.



On the serious note, I once met a disciple of Srila Prabhupada who was there at the time when that recording was made.

From what he explained, it wasn't recording of SP's japa (meaning private meditation with beads), it was rather recorded at the fire sacrifice, where SP was waiting for the priest to light fire or something and started chanting for short while.

Which to me slightly changes the angle of the discussion. We are not discussing any more SP's japa, rather his 'casual' chanting in the middle of something else.

But still, I had hard time understanding why would SP miss out on some syllables. To make that clear, I think its fairly insane to say that you can hear him chant the full mantra on that recording.

I opened my mind to Kripamoya pr, whom I always respected for his good sense of reason and balance. To my amazement, he actually managed to demonstrate how SP could have been chanting. It sounded exactly like SP on that tape, and unless you were looking at his LIPS, you could swear with your life that he is missing out on some syllables. The fact is that he didn't chant this few syllables loudly, but his tongue and lips moved. I couldn't believe it was that simple.

So did SP actually pronounce the syllables silently as Kripamoya has demonstrated, or he actually totally missed them, no one can tell for sure.

To me personally, without trying to impose that upon anyone else, he embodied the person who reaped the results of pure chanting - a pure lover of Krishna. He thought me how to do it, and after 15 years of doing it when I look back at myself when I started, I can see a huge progress I made. That opinion of mine is based on personal experience rather than on blind following of some dogmatic preaching about SP's greatness.

After all, that is what bhakti yoga is meant to be - pratyaksa avagamam dharmyam - understood through direct experience. As opposed to blind following.

Enough of serious stuff now. Need an advice. How much I should ask for (or what I should ask for) from GBC for this explanation? It looks like my lifetime opportunity!

[Dhyana]

Enough of serious stuff now. Need an advice. How much I should ask for (or what I should ask for) from GBC for this explanation? It looks like my lifetime opportunity! 

My respects to Kripamoya for not shifting the focus from your question to your (possible) offensiveness in asking it. I am afraid, though, that you won't get any money from the GBC for this solution (you would of course give it to Kripamoya as dakshina, credit where credit is due!).

The GBC won't value a solution since they do not acknowledge the problem it solves.

[amberline]

Oh, I wanted to vote here since registering, but couldn't find the thread.
This is the question I was also asking about my guru's chanting which sounded (on tape) as if he were skipping a lot of words. After being silenced from asking such "nonsense", I concluded that it's better to keep my mouth shut (unless I was chanting ). Nowadays, although I don't really care, I voted for the last option, with a disclaimer: be they pure devotees or not, what's in it for me to know whether they chant all or not? and even if they do, isn't hearing the important part ?

What I hated about chanting was that I was first introduced to its sloppy, Sunday Feast version chanted in darkened corners, or madly pacing to and fro -- and what I've seen in my 14 years was that's considered a general standard. In my experience, most devotees most of the time chant just to "finish off" their rounds, regardless of the quality, and I still bear grudges that this was not given the proper care, making new devotees feel it was ok to do so themselves.

Hope this makes sense, I'm writing in a hurry.

[metamorphosis]

Again my experience was perfect for time and place. I see your point Amberline, i would have reacted similarly.

But when i moved in an older Babuji of a Brahmacari took us (i arrived w/2 others) under his wing and he was really into it, and all the Brahmacari's were too. The older guy, who i was able to contact again recently after 30 years, chanted 64 daily.

Another time i chanted extra with a friend, when i was just lonely and new, the other friend had to make up some from Haying did not give him time. It was good.

[zvs]

I must confess that I never got anything out of chanting - in fact, I found chanting to be a miserable proposition. I was not fond of the idea of chanting while doing other things, and I genuinely made an effort to concentrate. I could not do it. I simply could not do it. I did not enjoy the syllables on my lips, in the back of my throat; I did not enjoy the sound of the mantra coming out of my mouth. (Obviously I was not conscious of that at the time; it's obvious upon reflection.)

In fact, for whatever reason, it was during japa that my mind would take off on its wildest, most damaging flights, which I could not stop nor control no matter how hard I tried. I had the worst, most severe, most psychologically troubling thoughts while chanting. It got to the point where I just didn't want to do it anymore - my lips felt strange, the sound bothered me, the thoughts destroyed me. And yet I had a vow to fulfill...

[amberline]

I had a similar period of distaste, at the time humbly attributed to my inattentiveness. I still find it quite unsavory to chant... but this is perhaps for the other discussion on our own chanting. Anyway, I think it would have had a better effect if ACBS put more stress on quality than quantity. And not only in chanting.

[Kalisurfer]

I must confess that I never got anything out of chanting - in fact, I found chanting to be a miserable proposition. I was not fond of the idea of chanting while doing other things, and I genuinely made an effort to concentrate. I could not do it. I simply could not do it. I did not enjoy the syllables on my lips, in the back of my throat; I did not enjoy the sound of the mantra coming out of my mouth. (Obviously I was not conscious of that at the time; it's obvious upon reflection.)

In fact, for whatever reason, it was during japa that my mind would take off on its wildest, most damaging flights, which I could not stop nor control no matter how hard I tried. I had the worst, most severe, most psychologically troubling thoughts while chanting. It got to the point where I just didn't want to do it anymore - my lips felt strange, the sound bothered me, the thoughts destroyed me. And yet I had a vow to fulfill...

It's too bad that some type of in depth teachings concerning japa were not taught at the time, for we were given the mantra and a set of beads attached to a vow to chant them a certain amount of times every day, then let go freely into the complexities of tackling the ever active mind during those two hours every day. Morning japa time was also a time to do things for the deities and kitchen, or prepare for some type of service of the day, it was unusual to have that time totally free to chant once one became an initiated devotee, then making it necessary to squeeze it in during another part of the day, which lead to always seeing devotees moving their fingers inside their bead bag while having conversations with others or focused on doing something other than the chanting itself. It was always a huge frustration for myself, and I agree with many others that the emphasis on quality instead of numerical quantities would of made much more spiritual sense.

Your personal experience with japa sounds painful ZVS. Doing something mandatory every day considered the height or essence of a spiritual practice, and having it produce the worst negative thoughts one could have is torture. To do this repeatedly, having the same results of negative thoughts would drive anyone into a state of despair, so of course why would anyone want to stick with such a thing. Being inside our heads and dealing with constant thoughts should not be the only thing a person doing japa or meditating should be consumed with, for at some point, finding a sense of transcendence or state of well being or restfullness would be a refuge from the pressure of daily activity or thoughts, especially negative ones.

[Kalisurfer]

The emphasis of saying every syllable correctly and out loud was something that I really had a hard time adjusting to after years of silent meditation on a mantra before becoming a devotee. I would usually chant very softly when in the temple room, and on my own, usually silently, listening to the mantra in my mind. I always found silent chanting so much more easier and more pleasant to do, it felt more deeper and connected to something that lay in the inner recesses of being, instead of always pushing something to the outer regions of awareness, like speaking to my skin or sending verbal messages to the ceiling above my head. Their was also the peer pressure to conform and chant out loud, joining into the euphonious sound vibrations that a full temple room could create. I could easily groove on the combined sound everyone made in the temple room, the cadence of incomprehensible syllables, much like the sound of cicada’s at full bloom in late summer trees, yet having some type of overall effect that was more attractive than having to think about saying the words correctly out loud and paying attention to the meaning.

My prior years of silent meditation made thoughts very conspicuous and easy to hear and see, so I always had a tough time dealing with the teachings that one must be so outer with all manners of devotion, as if silent thoughts were prohibited and contraband, treating silence like mushrooms, onions and chocolates. Perhaps no-silence or stillness should have been the 5th regulation, encouraging basic outwardness of action, behavior and dress, while making the sublime inner mysterious experience of spirituality, being present in the moment a no-no or something garnered as cheap, ineffective, unwanted and a sign of doing it all wrong.

I kind of view the idea that Prabhupada may have not chanted every syllable correctly as a positive thing really, for it shows some type of humanness and the possibility that perfection is something those encased in the flesh can do without and not be expected of, but having such thoughts is why I am writing here and not an active member of GV anymore.

[zvs]

Very well-taken thoughts, Kali.

I rather think silent/internal chanting would have been perfect for me, and from my understanding, some Gaudiyas do this. The internal nature of it, I assume, would automatically accomplish the task of reining the mind in to a state of focus; after all, all conscious thoughts are produced in focus. If we're working on a thought, there's no room for other things to creep in; if they do, we brush them away for the time being.

On the contrary, when you're reciting something out loud - something that requires absolutely no effort of mind for you to remember or pronounce, because of the sheer amount of times you've said it - then focus becomes absolutely obsolete. I could have been chanting "Yo quiero Taco Bell" - it was just words, just sound, a catch phrase, pouring out of my mouth without thought, while my brain went off uncontrollably on flights of dark fancy, because there was truly nothing to focus on, nowhere to hinge myself.

The constant, daily repetition of that "K" clicking in the back of my throat, that wet "sh," followed by a gently, unpleasantly buzzing "n"... if I'd heard it all in my mind, it could have been so much more. As it was, it made me want to cringe to pick up my beads. I still can't recite it, I've tried; and when I went to a ratha-yatra this past summer because a friend needed me to drive him, and found myself forced to join in lest I be an obvious detriment to the celebration, I felt physically ill, my head spinning with dissonance, my lips and tongue fighting with me over whether or not to produce the sounds, my voice sounding like someone else's entirely... someone else who looks and talks just like me, even has the same birthdate, but suddenly disappeared one day in 2003 never to be seen again.

When I think of the amount of names that Mr. Ananda recited in Vraja, I literally shudder with horror.

[ras]

I was just listening to some talks by an ISKCON sannyasi who lives in Vrindavan all about how everything; all Krishna-lilas, all realization of your siddha-deha and everything in the revealed sastras is all included in the syllables of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra. It seemed that from this angle of view, the whole reason for studying sastra, etc. was simply to be aware of what is included in the holy name. It sounded great for awhile, you're so used to hearing "simply chant" and "this is the only process as recommended in the Kali-santarana Upanishad and Sri Chaitanya for the age of Kali" etc.

As I kept listening the problem I developed was the requirement for "chanting without offense" and that "unless you follow every single instruction of the guru in the shastra you are committing offense". I remembered that this same viewpoint is fully supported in Srila Prabhupada's books. If you chant with offense, you cannot make any progress, you are like a car stuck in neutral. "All your progress is neutalized", or so sayeth the swami.

So all of a sudden everything is about "instructions" and "books". Oh, but chanting is the only process recommended for THIS age. "In the age of Kali men are lazy, unlucky, misguided and always disturbed". And in that state, I guess they will be able to remember as well as follow 60 or 70 volumes of Vedic books. Statements like "unless you LIVE with the devotees you are not following and committing guru-aparadha".

I loved chanting when I first started. That was before I got hit over the head with a load of bricks!

[metamorphosis]

Yes the offenses, but the best medicine for the disease of offensive chanting is more chanting!

[ras]

Yes the offenses, but the best medicine for the disease of offensive chanting is more chanting!

It sounds like you just said that the cure for the disease is more of the same disease.

Or were you just kidding?

[zanardi]

I remember going to our first ever sunday lecture in Korsnäs. Jnanesvara explained how chanting has virtually no effect whatsoever until one is properly initiated by a professionally proper spiritually mastered spiritualist and given the HK-mantra via his lips and fingers to them beads. My brother got very angry hearing that and thought it was nonsense. So little respect had he. No wonder he fell away so soon from the devotional pathway to heaven.

[Dhyana]

Yes the offenses, but the best medicine for the disease of offensive chanting is more chanting!

It sounds like you just said that the cure for the disease is more of the same disease.

Or were you just kidding?

Yes, this one p*ssed me off as well. The cure for offensive chanting is even more offensive chanting. And the more rounds one has to chant, the greater the risk they will be chanted half-heartedly, mechanically and with guilt feelings, squished in between other chores.