Did Srila Prabhupada chant his rounds properly?, What about the apparently missing sounds Options

[0erkel0]

This is erkels wife. He wanted me to start this poll, if it hasn't been done already.
Why can't we hear Prabhupada chant "properly"? Isn't he supposed to set the example for us all? If he appears to be skipping his parts of his rounds and we are told we just aren't qualified to hear it, and he really is chanting all of his rounds, how is he chanting the rest, with his spiritual tongue of his spiritual body? Why can't we hear him chant all of his rounds?

[ePiTau]

This is erkels wife. He wanted me to start this poll, if it hasn't been done already.
Why can't we hear Prabhupada chant "properly"? Isn't he supposed to set the example for us all? If he appears to be skipping his parts of his rounds and we are told we just aren't qualified to hear it, and he really is chanting all of his rounds, how is he chanting the rest, with his spiritual tongue of his spiritual body? Why can't we hear him chant all of his rounds?

aim klraim erkelaye namah
bold this poll is!
do you have a bodyguard?

[metamorphosis]

This is erkels wife. He wanted me to start this poll, if it hasn't been done already.
Why can't we hear Prabhupada chant "properly"? Isn't he supposed to set the example for us all? If he appears to be skipping his parts of his rounds and we are told we just aren't qualified to hear it, and he really is chanting all of his rounds, how is he chanting the rest, with his spiritual tongue of his spiritual body? Why can't we hear him chant all of his rounds?

aim klraim erkelaye namah
bold this poll is!
do you have a bodyguard?

I think she is quite safe, because she is covered by the Gopi's Dust

[metamorphosis]

Why can't we hear Prabhupada chant "properly"? Isn't he supposed to set the example for us all?

Jeb Uvaca: "Do as i say, not as i do"

[evakurvan]

this is a really good question and i really want to hear more about it. Hearing that recording i've been feeling i must be missing something in the way of chanting out loud and thinking this is how it should ideally sound?

[Prisni]

Gaudiya Vaisnavas also chant mentally, without moving their lips. One practice that for some reason ISKCON appears to have decided is wrong. Maybe since it can be confused with the very popular buzzword "mental"? Or maybe Prabhupada figured his western disciples was so neophyte, that he never told them. And now, of course, if Prabhupada never said it, and they never asked, for the next 10000 years in ISKCON, it is a banned practise.

For everyone else - it is harder. But for those of us who have forever, or until our deaths, burned in the hare krishna mantra into the neuron paths of our brains, it is easy.

[Kalisurfer]

There was a lot of emphasis put on saying the Hare Krsna mantra loud and clear, which always confounded me somewhat. One would think that the emphasis would be put more on the devotion that comes from the mind and heart, where intent with meaning would seem to be more important then the outward manifestation of the perfect elocution , which seems rather superficial.

Was it more important to look like and act like a perfect institutionalized pukka devotee that conformed to some universal norm, or was it more important to find and practice a more natural personal devotion to God that would be unique to our individuality?

As for Prabhupada, he chanted in his own personal way that expressed his individuality, and because he was (and still is to many) the perfect Spiritual Master, many feel a need to imitate his outward manifestations and personality like robots while judging the advancement of others as to how close they come to matching the guru’s look, speech and mannerisms.

It is rather ironic that the institution that taught the importance of loud and clear chanting had its founder acharya chanting in a rather rough imperfect personal way that seems to go against that teaching. Outside this irony, who is to know what is happening inside anyone who prays or chants in any manner or form, or are we just worried and concerned about the perfection of its outward superficial manifestation?

[Dhyana]

There was a lot of emphasis put on saying the Hare Krsna mantra loud and clear, which always confounded me somewhat. One would think that the emphasis would be put more on the devotion that comes from the mind and heart, where intent with meaning would seem to be more important then the outward manifestation of the perfect elocution , which seems rather superficial.

When I first learned to chant, I didn't want to count. I wanted to sing, second best was chanting softly but breaking into a kind of drone sometimes. I liked, for example, to chant pacing up and down as I waited for the bus. But then some bhaktins (senior to me by several months - seemed very senior back then!) chastised me and explained I had to use japa beads. I had nothing against beads, but I had already learned that these needed to be kept very very pure, and I was often not that pure after a day at the university. And I did not want to be limited in my spontaneity by the beads and the thought of counting. I wanted to only think of the mantra I was chanting just then, not to feel I needed to get somewhere with my chanting. Quantification ruined the experience.

They insisted, though, that the proper way to chant was to chant rounds, regularly, a minimum number of rounds every day. So I devised a system. I timed myself for a few rounds, estimated how long an average round took, and used time as my equivalent to beads. Only that I chanted a little longer than the calculated time -- to be on the safe side and not risk that my rounds were incomplete.

The two stern bhaktins couldn't approve of this, either. According to them, it was an offense to not chant the precise prescribed number of mantras in a round. Both more and less was bad. Thus my "safety margin" constituted aparadha and the chanting wouldn't be bona fide. I had a real hard time accepting this. In the end I did, for my prescribed japa. But somehow chanting always felt more attractive outside of japa and its strictures.

[ePiTau]

There was a lot of emphasis put on saying the Hare Krsna mantra loud and clear, which always confounded me somewhat. One would think that the emphasis would be put more on the devotion that comes from the mind and heart, where intent with meaning would seem to be more important then the outward manifestation of the perfect elocution , which seems rather superficial.

Was it more important to look like and act like a perfect institutionalized pukka devotee that conformed to some universal norm, or was it more important to find and practice a more natural personal devotion to God that would be unique to our individuality?

As for Prabhupada, he chanted in his own personal way that expressed his individuality, and because he was (and still is to many) the perfect Spiritual Master, many feel a need to imitate his outward manifestations and personality like robots while judging the advancement of others as to how close they come to matching the guru’s look, speech and mannerisms. 

It is rather ironic that the institution that taught the importance of loud and clear chanting had its founder acharya chanting in a rather rough imperfect personal way that seems to go against that teaching. Outside this irony, who is to know what is happening inside anyone who prays or chants in any manner or form, or are we just worried and concerned about the perfection of its outward superficial manifestation?

I think it was pretty much Prabhupada himself who set the standards. In fact, he somehwere even defined acarya as the person who sets the standards. I know there are many who like to believe that all "bad" practices came to ISKCON after Prabhupada, or despite of him, or somehow behind his back, etc. Well, I guess you all know by know that I believe many "problematic practices" originated with Prabhupada himself. He had an issue with feelings and emotions for example. One devotee said "Prabhupada, sometimes I feel...." Prabhupada cut him down, "No, 'I feel', emotions, that is not authorized." One guest once said to Prabhupada in a conversation, "Prabhupada, I sometimes, in my struggles in life, feel just like Arjuna felt on the battlefield...." Prabhupada cut right into his word, "No, this is not bona fide. You cannot feel like Arjuna. This is not authorized."

In general, in ISKCON, and starting right with Prabhupada, feelings seem to have been something suspect. It really shows in so many of their practices. So it is no wonder that japa which could not be heard by others, was suspect. "What does this devotee think he feels? Ecstasy, perhaps? Preposterous! Outrageous! Lecture him up!"

This led to a culture where "feelings" had to be authorized, approved, by a senior devotee. The feelings had to be cofirmed in some shastra, otherwise they were not authentic, fake.

I think there is a passage in CC where Prabhupada argues a long way in his purport that chanting has to be audible, on the basis of a certain word in a certain verse. His interpretation seems labored, but it could be that it comes form Bhaktisiddhanta. I would have to look it up. In the CC Prabhupada often totally failed to even translate Bhaktisiddhanta's Bengali purports correctly. It could be that things got really messed up in the transcription phase, because that CC was done in two months(!), a recipe for disaster, not a sign of empowerment.

[evakurvan]

Gaudiya Vaisnavas also chant mentally, without moving their lips. One practice that for some reason ISKCON appears to have decided is wrong. Maybe since it can be confused with the very popular buzzword "mental"? Or maybe Prabhupada figured his western disciples was so neophyte, that he never told them. And now, of course, if Prabhupada never said it, and they never asked, for the next 10000 years in ISKCON, it is a banned practise.

For everyone else - it is harder. But for those of us who have forever, or until our deaths, burned in the hare krishna mantra into the neuron paths of our brains, it is easy.

I only chant non out loud. But i know this has nothing to do with senior anteriority superiority. I am here to stomp out such vainglorious attributions for i know the only fire those of us who do so have been burning in is the mayavadi hell of prior pyres that trained us in the manner of such demoniac incantation.

[Emma]

Why is there no option for "I dont give a shit whether he chanted the mantras or not"? LOL

[Prisni]

I think it was pretty much Prabhupada himself who set the standards. In fact, he somehwere even defined acarya as the person who sets the standards.

So everyone who want to follow Prabhupada strict to the letter, should stay in ISKCON, and follow all those rules.

As for the rest of us, we can stand and watch while the sick is sinking. We can shout - But go to the pumps, the ship is filling with water and will sink.
And get the answer - Prabhupada did not tell us to pump, so we can't do it. He said that we should only chant hare krishna, stay in ISKCON and follow the GBC.
And the orchestra is continuing to play while the last part of the ship sinks beneath the surface of the sea, never to be seen again.

[Tapati]

Why is there no option for "I dont give a shit whether he chanted the mantras or not"? LOL

That's what I was thinking.

[zanardi]

I think it was pretty much Prabhupada himself who set the standards. In fact, he somehwere even defined acarya as the person who sets the standards.

So everyone who want to follow Prabhupada strict to the letter, should stay in ISKCON, and follow all those rules.

As for the rest of us, we can stand and watch while the sick is sinking. We can shout - But go to the pumps, the ship is filling with water and will sink.
And get the answer - Prabhupada did not tell us to pump, so we can't do it. He said that we should only chant hare krishna, stay in ISKCON and follow the GBC.
And the orchestra is continuing to play while the last part of the ship sinks beneath the surface of the sea, never to be seen again.

Not exactly a Titanic, eh?

[Prisni]

Not exactly a Titanic, eh?

As the biggest unsinkable Gaudiya Vaisnava movement of the west today, maybe they should keep a better watch out for icebergs.

[Dhyana]

I only chant non out loud. But i know this has nothing to do with senior anteriority superiority. I am here to stomp out such vainglorious attributions for i know the only fire  those of us who do so  have been burning in is the mayavadi hell of prior pyres that trained us in the manner of such demoniac incantation.

O best of Evakurvans! How wondrous! Indeed your empowered language and your enlightened conclusions are glorious! Sadhu, sadhu! Salutations!

[zanardi]

Not exactly a Titanic, eh?

As the biggest unsinkable Gaudiya Vaisnava movement of the west today, maybe they should keep a better watch out for icebergs.

"Row row row your boat, merrily merrily merrily gently down the stream".

[extranjero]

I haven't listened to Prabhupada's chanting carefully but it resembles a normal GM practice. Japa is a soft chanting that others can't even hear. Why then Prabhupada instructed westerners to chant japa with deafening loadness? Probably because those westerners had no previous experience about Indian tradition and often invented different deviating ideas. Thus he taught them as a strict language teacher who requires his students to pronounce all sounds very clearly and articulately even though normally spoken language has many sounds omitted. Even native speakers sometimes are so blissfully unaware that their pronunciation is different from what is taught in schools. That's why they say that one can't really learn a foreign language without real practice with native speakers.

I don't really care if Prabhupada's chanting is proper or not. That belongs to the theological discussions. The only thing that is scientifically proved is that japa indeed relieves one from stress. The study says nothing about leaving out words etc. When I get in some dangerous situation I instinctively start to chant and it seems to help. It is easier to do it on the beads but even without beads it is ok.

[Preyobrazhenya]

I think many of us have had the experience that what we are hearing with our inner ear doesn't match what others are hearing. I suspect that SP heard all his rounds, although it wasn't obvious to the outside hearer.

Often I was accused of sloppy chanting - bit I know I heard all of it. Perhaps it is better for all of us not to judge another and focus on ourselves.

My chosen religion also involves chanting on a rosary (and monastics do have prescribed rounds to chant), but fortunately, no one is busy judging you how your are doing it. It can be silent or out loud, sung or whatever. That is your choice.

[Strange Pilgrim]

Chanting the maha-mantra aloud always made my mind race in a disturbing way and gave me a sensation like my blood pressure was rising. About a year or two into the practice chanting would inevitably induce in me uncontrollably dark, self-destructive thoughts. I pray the Catholic Rosary aloud and it never has this effect; I always feel peaceful and content while I'm doing it. Back in my Vedanta Society days I did mental japa with a mantra I was given and that never induced mental racing or any negative sensations. It seems then that it's the combination of maha-mantra specifically and doing it aloud that drove me into aberrant mental states. I've since often wondered if the devotees' natural inclination to slack off and NOT chant their rounds is in fact a survival instinct being activated, that it's the healthy mind's effort to restore balance and not go insane.