Reflection and Feedback, Are you feeling stifled? Options

[Tapati]

I was sensing and now I am also hearing that behind the scenes members are feeling like we are too heavy handed and are stifling discussions.

I will be the first to admit that I am hyper sensitive to any indication of flame wars beginning, as I grew up with verbal abuse, experienced it in my first marriage, and I hate conflict. I've also been judged harshly over my religious choices, and I think I am not alone in that here. I wanted to be somewhat protective of others here and not add to whatever abuse or judgment they may have previously experienced.

Speaking for myself, I am also quite new to moderating. I can see that it is an art and it will take some time for me to learn to do it well.

So come on, let's talk about how we can create an atmosphere that is respectful without feeling straitjacketed, and what we need to do as moderators to facilitate that without getting in the way of discussion.

On my side, I also don't want things to become so heated that I start getting several reported posts per day and have to drop what I'm doing in my personal life to intervene.

So how can we find some kind of middle ground, where we are loose enough to have open discussion without personal attacks, people feeling like their religion has been judged in some way, or they are being judged for having either left GV or remained in GV, or whatever path they've chosen?

Really, I am open to suggestion as to how to accomplish this.

Also, is there a gender difference in communication coming into play here? Are the women more comfortable than the men, for instance?

[Tapati]

And since I am personally inviting feedback, I promise not to get cranky when I receive it, honest.

[babu]

I will be the first to admit that I am hyper sensitive to any indication of flame wars beginning, as I grew up with verbal abuse, experienced it in my first marriage, and I hate conflict.

Oceans separate sensitivity from hyper sensitivity. One is a virtue and the other is a vice. Being that we had an incredibly mature assembly of posters and the moderators were ready to pounce on any opinion that might raise some issues without the merest suggestion (imo) of anything resembling a flame war or verbal abuse was a scratch your head moment to see if a head was on one's shoulders for a place that stood for open and honest communication.

Yes, you may hate conflict but decreeing "create happiness" correct posts is not the way to get beyond hate. Indeed, your hating of conflict is the root of that which brings on conflict.

I wanted to be somewhat protective of others here and not add to whatever abuse or judgment they may have previously experienced.

Good God woman, haven't you learned anything from your years of being protected?

Speaking for myself, I am also quite new to moderating. I can see that it is an art and it will take some time for me to learn to do it well.

He/She/Hermaphrodite who moderates least, moderates best. If you really think moderating is an artform, then allow for all the colors and passions of the human experience to present themselves and not just black and white.

So come on, let's talk about how we can create an atmosphere that is respectful without feeling straitjacketed, and what we need to do as moderators to facilitate that without getting in the way of discussion.

End the bigotry against Viking cultural expressions.

Om shanti, babu

[Tapati]

Perhaps you could provide examples of my excesses?

In some cases I may have been responding to reported posts, which all takes place in PMs. In other words, someone was taking offense or feeling hurt or judged.

I am also perfectly willing to moderate my moderation. Probably the only things we are not willing to give up on are profiles/bios, and allowing the liberal use of vulgar language and explicit sexual content. As I have said before, if there is a need for that a passworded area for adults only could easily be created.

I was perhaps more concerned in the beginning, as people came in from places where flame wars were the rule, that people get it that that didn't fly here. As I see it, those who are here presently are mature and able to conduct themselves respectfully. I am certainly willing to back off a great deal and see how that goes, and if I start getting several complaints per day (creating a moderating burden) then we can perhaps revisit this and adjust a bit in the other direction.

I asked the gender question because so far, the people who are expressing that they are not happy with the present standards are men. So I ask again, have the women been happy or unhappy with the moderation standards, by and large?

We could also try having a far more open area, such as making the controversial forum have a freer standard, offer to let someone else moderate that area, etc.

I should say that one member was so disturbed by the Prabhupada topic that she left after sending such an offensively worded private message that it got her also banned. So a lot has gone on behind the scenes that members may not be aware of. Still I prefer to support the criticism of him (which is what disturbed her) as we have never been free or encouraged to do so. I simply expect careful language in that one area, especially. One other member was also very disturbed by the criticism and immediately reduced their participation.

[Tapati]

I hope that Babu is not the only brave soul willing to speak up here. If we're going to change our moderating styles we need more feedback so we can get a picture of a consensus (if there is one) among our members.

My gender based concern is that so far, we have more women participants than on most forums I've seen. Is that because we are so careful about conflict or just happenstance? Are they feeling stifled like some of the men, or are they feeling like things are just fine?

If there turns out to be a pull in opposite directions based on gender, for instance, we might want to find a compromise somewhere in between.

Whether you've hated my (or our) moderating style(s) or liked them, please speak up.

Think of this as a market survey. Frankly, I am spending considerable money on a product here, one I hope that consumers enjoy. I don't want to waste it because I can't get sufficient feedback to meet consumer demand.

So giving feedback is a blessing, and I thank Babu, at least, for venturing forth and doing so.

[0talasiga0]

......
My gender based concern is that so far, we have more women participants than on most forums I've seen. Is that because we are so careful about conflict or just happenstance? Are they feeling stifled like some of the men, or are they feeling like things are just fine?

.......

Another way of looking at breakdowns is

1. see members list in descending order of posts
that of the current c,3000 posts c.43% of them (ie c1300) are by Adminsitrators/Moderators (I have included Angrezi, former moderator, in this count).

2. Also, of the non Administrator/moderator component of posts, which gender has posted the greater percentage? Is it the group that is more active that has been "moderated" more and therefore made complaints about the same?

The thing is Tapati, statistical analysis is a lot more reticulate than many think. I think it would be meritorious for you to confer with colleagues who have some Social Science expertise in statistical profiling to avoid simplistic conclusions. I feel that such a worthy topic needs to steered on viable currents.

[Dhyana]

Wow, Talasiga! You've given us something to chew on.

You are right, as I look at the 20 most frequent posters and exclude us mods, 2/3 of the rest are men. The three most prolific non-mod posters are men, too.

Which certainly makes them a likely target of most mod interventions, all other things being equal. The men would be most likely to be moderated even if their posts on average were less objectionable than those of the women! Being most active writers, they will also be more likely to notice and take issue with our moderation of other writers.

At the same time, Tapati and I are the two most prolific posters -- which will certainly come across as that the forum is dominated by Frauenpower even though only a tiny minority of our posts are mod action.

Hmmmm. *off to chew some more*

[Tapati]

Talasiga, your statistical analysis is quite useful. Thank you. What I am trying to do with my gender comments is encourage women to do something they don't often like to do--give negative feedback, if they have any. I am raising these questions of gender to show them that their voice is a necessary one in this discussion. They may not be posting in the same numbers as a group as men do, but we have more women members than I often see on the internet. I want to encourage that trend, certainly. Therefore I want to make sure that we don't drive them off, whatever their perspective is on the questions we are raising here.

If we are over-moderating and that is stifling them even more than it is the men, I need to hear that! Even just a short message saying "Babu reflect my views also."

I haven't drawn any conclusions yet about the gender differences, I'm just raising the questions at this point.

[Preyobrazhenya]

I would suggest to readers that don't like certain topics to simply stay away from the topics altogether. That is pretty much my approach to this type of thing. I will admit that there are some threads here that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole - but that doesn't mean that the threads shouldn't be here.

Regarding the Prabhupada thread, perhaps there could also be a thread dedicated to praise of Prahupada - and members should be asked to respect the nature of that thread. I myself got a little nervous about the Prabhupada thread, fearing it might drive away some here who still revere him as their guru. I don't want to see those members driven away. At the same time, I think that on a site like G-R, such a topic is fair game. Again, it would be better for some that don't like a particular thread to start a different thread and stick to the threads that one prefers. Prabupadanugas and Gaudiya Vaishnavas should still feel welcome here. For those of you who have left because of this, please reconsider.

[sarasvati_river]

I think that Preyo brings up a good point. I think that one of the strengths of this forum is having so many different areas related to various topics so that people can find what interests them. And just as people have the choice to view any thread, they also have the choice to not participate in any particular thread. I also strongly encourage others that if a topic does not interest them, to simply leave it alone. I, for example, have little interest in discussing the current state of ISKCON and how to reform GV, so I ignore those threads for the most part.

One of the weaknesses, however, is the large amount of topic drift that goes on in the forum. Sometimes the mods step in by breaking off a large part of a topic into its own separate thread, but often this comes a little late. I have seen several conversations which I was enjoying, and wanted to see continue, become entirely derailed by a disagreement on a philosophical point which had little to do with the original topic.

However, I recognize that as mods, there is only so much you can do, and other users need to become more proactive in starting and participating in threads that interest them and thinking about how their responses contribute, or draw away from, the current discussion. But until people learn how to strike a balance the mods do need to step in more to regulate what's going on.

[0Akaash0]

For myself I can say I have had it with Moderators, I have been on forums (mainly gaudiya related) since they started.

I find many to be dishonest and manipulative of members all the while sitting up in their Ivory towers playing 'Ruler'.

On some forums I have seen MODS as bullies, who only want to push their agenda and other's who try to exploit the members sexually.

I have also seen others who out and out 'LIE' in so many words about what their beliefs are in reality as opposed to what is insinuated on their forums and hide that from the members...in an attempt to get money from them.

I am not saying that is the case here...



This post has been edited by Akaash: Apr 6 2005, 09:34 PM

[angrezi]

As some may know, I have recently given up my moderator responsibilities. Partially from frustration with the site both in content and moderation, and partially because I began to see it as absorbing too much of my time.

I have written much about my views on the current situation in private, but would like to mention some things in public:

I personally feel there is too much moderation here (ditto to what babu said). As moderator I have recieved only one complaint from a member about a post (and it was a truly absurd post) and numerous reports from moderators, usually of minor issues. I wholeheatedly agree with Preyobhrazenya and others that if you don't like like a topic, don't read it, and better yet start a new one! That was what I said almost verbatim back at GD at one point.

Several friends have complained to me about the lack of feedom of speech, and what some feel is a selective enforcement of board rules. I feel, to make this site a fun and intellectually stimulating place to be, rather than a walk across eggshells, there needs to be less moderation. We need to treat our members as mature adults, although some have been turned off because they felt they were being treated as potential problems from the beginning. When a problem comes, lets deal with it then, rather than creating problems by zealously trying to prevent them .

It honestly disturbs me to see some of my cyber friends refusing to participate or scaling back their participation here for the above reasons. Which is ironically, not because they were offended by topics, but felt that either the topics are either irrelevant and boring, or that they were reprimanded for some minor issue.

I am saying all this because I had great hopes for this site, particularly as a place to discuss controversial and acedemic issues (my personal niche), and would like to see a little more communicative freedom here.

That said, moderation and the formulation of a discussion board, particularly of this type is a challenging endeavor. I am thankful to Tapati and the other mods for their commitment. We are all learning as we go. A discussion board cannot be all things to all people. But I do believe we can do better than thus far in terms of general atmosphere.

I believe the members should be encouraged more to participate, and act as 'moderators'. If a topic is drifting, bring it back. If someone says something outrageous, ask them to clarify. I think we are all adults here; and if someone really wants to be an outrageous jerk, we'll deal with that then.

In the meantime lets just accept there will be unresolvable disagreements, and the all of the content will not be acceptible to all manner of people. To try to create a utopian site where this doesn't occur will end up an Orwellian bore...

[Homer]

I have not been participating much as I find discussions relying on quotes from books rather than from personal insight to be rather boring.

I have been recording music to keep myself in touch with myself and with The Goddess.

Moderation style does seem a tad nannyish, but I accept that I am visiting a forum as I would visit a friends home and I cannot dictate the house rules to my host.

[0Akaash0]

As some may know, I have recently given up my moderator responsibilities. Partially from frustration with the site both in content and moderation, and partially because I began to see it as absorbing too much of my time.

I have written much about my views on the current situation in private, but would like to mention some things in public:

I personally feel there is too much moderation here (ditto to what babu said). As moderator I have recieved only one complaint from a member about a post (and it was a truly absurd post) and numerous reports from moderators, usually of minor issues. I wholeheatedly agree with Preyobhrazenya and others that if you don't like like a topic, don't read it, and better yet start a new one! That was what I said almost verbatim back at GD at one point.

Several friends have complained to me about the lack of feedom of speech, and what some feel is a selective enforcement of board rules. I feel, to make this site a fun and intellectually stimulating place to be, rather than a walk across eggshells, there needs to be less moderation.  We need to treat our members as mature adults, although some have been turned off because they felt they were being treated as potential problems from the beginning. When a problem comes, lets deal with it then, rather than creating problems by zealously trying to prevent them .

It  honestly disturbs me to see some of my cyber friends refusing to participate or scaling back their participation here for the above reasons. Which is ironically, not because they were offended by topics, but felt that either the topics are either irrelevant and boring, or that they were reprimanded for some minor issue.

I am saying all this because I had great hopes for this site, particularly as a place to discuss controversial and acedemic issues (my personal niche), and would like to see a little more communicative freedom here.

That said, moderation and the formulation of a discussion board, particularly of this type is a challenging endeavor. I am thankful to Tapati and the other mods for their commitment. We are all learning as we go. A discussion board cannot be all things to all people. But I do believe we can do better than thus far in terms of general atmosphere.

I believe the members should be encouraged more to participate, and act as 'moderators'. If a topic is drifting, bring it back. If someone says something outrageous, ask them to clarify. I think we are all adults here; and if someone really wants to be an outrageous jerk, we'll deal with that then.

In the meantime lets just accept there will be unresolvable disagreements, and the all of the content will not be acceptible to all manner of people. To try to create a utopian site where this doesn't occur will end up an Orwellian bore...

DITTO...

DITTO on Babujis post as well....



This post has been edited by Akaash: Apr 7 2005, 01:33 AM

[Tapati]

Thank you all for coming forward and contributing. How else can we learn this art of moderation unless we get good feedback?

Homer, thank you for your comments. If even a gentle soul like you feels like we are nannyish, that is a good barometer. Right now we are asking our house guests, what do you need to be different?

We actually do welcome posts from personal experience here, as I for one think that is a valid source of knowledge. Others came here from sites where quotes flew back and forth in a great flurry and probably still have that habit. Nothing wrong with sharing quotes, but feel just as free not to bring a stack of books to your computer every night just to log on!

We are considering the policy of simply standing back and waiting until members report posts to us. Now the only drawback to this is we are then asking members to be assertive if they do feel the need for help. I know I was often reluctant to report posts that genuinely hurt me when I was a member. I hated that feeling that I was "telling" on another member. I often preferred that a mod see the situation and just do something. So please, let us know when you need help. Let's try this and see how it goes. We can revisit the issue if it doesn't seem to be working.

Sarasvati_river, it is also good to hear feedback on the off-topic situation. I will try to be better about splitting topics as needed. Again, please feel free to report when this is needed, as I don't always have time to read every thread.

Akaash, moderators everywhere are human beings. Of course we will all have our particular faults. I don't see myself as in a ruler in an ivory tower, but as someone who has invested a fair amount of time and money to try to create what I wish I myself could have, a forum where discussion is geared more to understanding the other's position than defeating them in debate, showing off one's academic prowess, Sanskrit ability, or longevity in a particular path. I have seen the dangers of moderator excess (and alas have probably acted it out) yet I have also seen the mayhem that results from no moderation at all. I prefer moderated groups even as a rank and file member, and even when I don't always agree with the moderator.

Preyo, thanks for suggesting that people simply create the topic they want to see in reaction to other topics. We would enjoy a pro-Prabhupada topic as well. I myself still have affection for him, despite what I see as his faults. I knew that would be a difficult subject before the forum was even open, so I was prepared for some fallout.

We strive to be open to controversial topics as long as members strive for a mutually respectful atmosphere. So far we really feel that you have, overall. Thank you for contributing to a respectful tone.

Please, by all means continue with the feedback. I am starting to look at paring down the amount of subforums, combining some of the least used ones, etc., so feedback on structure is also welcome. I may need to take the board briefly off line one night in order to accomplish this, but I'll choose a relatively dead period of time that will inconvenience you all the least.

We are just a month old, nothing is set in stone.

[babu]

Perhaps you could provide examples of my excesses?

For me it was everytime I started a thread, it turned out I had it in the wrong section. For instance, there was the thread about the "Pepsi Challenge" which I felt belonged in the food section and you felt it belonged in the politics section due to the riot that broke out. As I was wanting not to make this a political issue and to keep politics out of it but to talk about food and taste, I think it should have remained there. I think the mods should respect the section where we choose to put a topic.

[0Akaash0]

Perhaps you could provide examples of my excesses?

For me it was everytime I started a thread, it turned out I had it in the wrong section. For instance, there was the thread about the "Pepsi Challenge" which I felt belonged in the food section and you felt it belonged in the politics section due to the riot that broke out. As I was wanting not to make this a political issue and to keep politics out of it but to talk about food and taste, I think it should have remained there. I think the mods should respect the section where we choose to put a topic.

Walked out this morning
Don't believe what I saw
A hundred billion bottles
Washed up on the shore
Seems I'm not alone at being alone
A hundred billion castaways
Looking for a home


-- "Message In A Bottle" by The Police

[Tapati]

Perhaps you could provide examples of my excesses?

For me it was everytime I started a thread, it turned out I had it in the wrong section. For instance, there was the thread about the "Pepsi Challenge" which I felt belonged in the food section and you felt it belonged in the politics section due to the riot that broke out. As I was wanting not to make this a political issue and to keep politics out of it but to talk about food and taste, I think it should have remained there. I think the mods should respect the section where we choose to put a topic.

I thought it very odd that you were juxtaposing the two in that way, and putting it where food stuff goes left people to be even more shocked if they actually went to the link and read the material. At least, it shocked me. If you had separated the two and put one in the food section and one in the politics section, that would have been great. I just really didn't want that link in the light-hearted hobbies area. I'm sorry if that seemed draconian to you. If I could have separated the poll and left it there, I would have been fine with that.

Perhaps if you want to connect two things that different, you could start with the heavy one in the section suited to that, and say that it inspired you to do a poll which can be found (insert link here).

I know you have this passion for pairing these things. Let's figure out a way to do it that we can both live with.

[0Akaash0]

[Tapati]

Of course, since we are presently responding only to member complaints, that means I won't be moving topics unless members start to complain about why they have chocolate in their peanut butter.

Akaash, by the way, is off to explore another forum. We thank him for stopping by.