Do You Need a Guru?, by Mariana Caplan Options

[angrezi]

I once had the gut to speak before some Iskconers calling overemphasis of guru a kartabhaja disorder - I got some cold looks...

I never felt that I myself need a guru in a way as most Gaudiyas do, and this fact helped me greatly in leaving Iskcon. I was never initiated.

By the way, does anyone have any  knowledge whence the instituion of guru came from? My understanding is that it is the later spawn of the religious education system of pre-medieval India, and just later, in the early medieval age did it spread to non-brahmins, and began to mean what it means today.

My speculation from certain (karmi-scientific) things I've read this semester is that the guru conception could be linked to the purohit of Vedic sacrifice. As the rituals changed over time the importance of the priest as officiator of spiritual pursuit did not. I gather this from The Bhakti Cult in Ancient India by Bhagabat Goswami (1922)

I would further speculate, if I may, that mantra initiation was a product of the Agamas that became reinterpreted over time and accepted into later schools of thought. I have not come across the formality of the mantra initiation, and guru-shishya relationship as we know it until the Vedantic period, but I guess its possible it was existent before within other systems.

What is certain is for the last 1000 years at least, the Tantric system shows the pinnacle of guru importance, and that was based largely in Bengal and modern Nepal.

[0authority0]

you need a guru if you want someone to tell you what to do.

That guru is a total stranger to you and you will give him the power to brainwash you with his memories. You will take his memories and make them memories of your own. Then you will think that these memories are reality. Then you are in a state of complete suggestion, without a rudder of your own. A stranger is telling you what to do with your life and you let it happen because you want someone to tell you what to do. You wind up worshiping authority. You loose your common sense and identity.

Do you need a guru? I don't.

I avoid trash like that.

Love,

YOURMASTER the AUTHORITY

[0Audarya-lila dasa0]

It all depends on how much you want to progress. We accept guidance from experts in all sorts of fields of study. Reading books is very helpful - but learning from someone who is practiced in any field will give a more thorough and complete understanding of the subject matter. Learning a trade often entails working as an apprentice under an expert in the particular field of work.

Basically, in all endeavors we are well advised to take advantage of the experience and knoweldge of those who are practiced in that particular endeavor.

In terms of needing a Guru for spiritual advancement goes - it depends on how much you want to advance. At any rate, if you know where you want to go and you find someone who is heading in the same direction but that is much further along the path - it will undoubtedly be beneficial for you to learn from that person - he/she can help you avoid the various pitfalls along the path.

[Homer]

At any rate, if you know where you want to go and you find someone who is heading in the same direction but that is much further along the path - it will undoubtedly be beneficial for you to learn from that person - he/she can help you avoid the various pitfalls along the path.

But, if you don't know what advanced is by dint of realised knowledge, then how does one know who is advanced?

Just because someone has experience and tradition behind them does not translate that what they practice is actually The Way.

Plumbers and tradespersons can show you their functioning results. What can the gurus' show us?

[0authority0]

ITS ONE THING to learn real, concrete things form someone. Like how to read or work on a motor or computer skills, or to become a doctor.

It is totally another thing to 'learn' from a guru. A guru only talks about imaginations in his mind. He speaks only of tired memories and foolish traditions. He knows nothing of reality. He is trying to find 'god' through the ignorance of his memories. Memories will not show us 'god'. A guru is full of memories. His memories are worthless and just a distraction from reality and life.

So there is not a person on earth who ever needed a guru for spiritual matters. We only need teachers for practial life. No one can teach us about the other side of life. They can only deceive, knowingly or unknowingly.

Love,

YOURMASTER the AUTHORITY

[Chanahari]

I don't see the difference between guru and teacher as a matter of teaching imagined things and teaching concrete things. What I see as a main difference is that a guru has much greater power over you, only comparable to that of political leaders. The teacher's authority is only limited to the profession he teaches; the guru is an authority over everything you do or don't. (Of course, it has something to do with the approach that the guru's usual profession - ie. spiritual life, that Authority Prabhu likes to call imagination - is not just a separate part of life, but encompasses all the other parts of life.)

In my personal life, I'm rather independent-minded, so the guru principle has not a chance for me. But I'm not entirely against the principle - while there are people who are glad to be without close personal supervision, there are also people who feel confortable as disciples in a guru-disciple relationship. And of course, there are many who absolutely need other, more self-reliant people to tell them what and how to do - they will be the followers of anyone with suitable charisma, because they need a leader. I may venture that the majority of humankind belongs to the last two category.

This is not an attempt form my part to denigrate those who decide to be disciples to a guru, nor those who absolutely need a guru to be psychically healthy. It has nothing to do with value as a human - in the same way as there are people with strong and with weak body, great or little appetite, resistant or non-existent immune system or big or little material intelligence, there are people with stronger and weaker desire for such an independence. Forcing an independent-minded human to accept someone else as an authority on all the things s/he does is as harmful to him/her than forcing a more dependent person to be without a guiding leader.

[0Audarya-lila dasa0]

I'm not talking about anyone forcing anyone else or any kind of deficiency in a person who has the need for dependence on others or any other such material conception.

I pointed out a practical and logical point - in all spheres of life there are experienced people that we can learn from if we seek to do well in any given area. This is common sense and quite practical.

Now, when we speak of God we are speaking of the Supremely independent person. We are also speaking about an entity whose very existence is beyond our sensual and mental experience.

I won't quote any verses but only point out that scripture is filled with good examples of individuals who have lived a certain way and obtained certain results in terms of spiritual development. So from scripture we get the idea that there are things we can do with our life in terms of actions and thoughts that will be conducive to experiencing reality beyond the mind and senses. Scripture also informs us that people in the past have lived this way and achieved certain results. It tells us how they behave, how they talk, think, etc. It gives us some idea of what to look for in other human beings as indicators that a person has achelved some experience and isn't just filled with theory and mental constructs. This experience is brought about by associating with others who have experience and are living a life of practice aimed at such experience. It is also brought about by sincerely applying oneself to the practices involved in reaching transcendence.

Again - only the person who seeks transcendence needs a Guru. Why? Because such a person seeks all the help he/she can get and seeks to associate with others who have the type of experience he/she is seeking. Again, common sense.

From the spiritual perspective since we live on the plane of the mind and senses we are actually quite helpless in the matter of gaining any tangible experience beyond that which is available to us through mental or sensual endeavors and, in fact, we are totally dependent on mercy of someone else (in this case God) if we are to ever hope to actually gain experience.

Guru doesn't mean control - it means someone who can help someone based on what they have attained who is seeking a similar experience. It is about sharing, not controling.

At any rate - obviously not everyone needs a Guru (at least a sad Guru) - only someone who wants to develop love of God and sees there human life as meant for that sole purpose.

[0Audarya-lila dasa0]

To Homer -

The Guru can share his/her heart with us - we can experience their attainment by associating with them. One who is seeking a Guru has some experience - albeit only a glimpse - but enough to want to develop and increase that experience.

How will you know if you love someone? If they love you? It is a heart transaction - it also bears out in practical dealings. In the same way the Guru will be seen to live a certain way, speak and act a certain way. We know who is Guru by our own inner eye to see.

[0authority0]

It seems that the main desire is not so much to have an authority as a teacher, but to worship the concept of authority. That is why people get gurus.

It seems a sad profession, this guru business, to me.

Love,

AUTHORITY-YOURMASTER

[Tapati]

While I myself am no longer seeking a guru, I can see that it can be a positive, loving experience and a guru can be motivated by love to offer knowledge to a sincere person seeking God. When enough people seek out your advice, it can become a full time job and it's only right that you be supported like any minister of faith.

I think it becomes sad only when the guru is not genuine or becomes corrupt, and seeks money and fame rather than simply to help others attain the same realizations.

[0authority0]

Its one thing to help a friend but another thing to start accepting favors from others like cars, special food, pampering, money not earned, (the list goes on and on as we all know).

I do not need a guru and there is not a person on earth that needs a guru. We only need to be serious about seeing life as it is. Then we will get answers all by ourselves. Anyone who claims to have the answers has none.

Love,

YOURMASTER the AUTHORITY

[Tapati]

You are assuming that all gurus accept these things. I don't think you have enough data to know.

[0authority0]

I only need to understand the mind of a person who would accept the title of 'guru'. That is enough data to inform me of their utter worthlessness in my life.

Love,

YOURMASTER the AUTHORITY

[Chanahari]

#01
According to "authority", one who accepts the title "guru" is worthless.

#02
"Authority" also goes by the name "yourmaster".

#03
"Guru" in Sanskrit means "master". Thus "authority" calls himself "your guru".

Conclusion: ....

[0authority0]

Of course you see my name for what it is.

And we can all learn from that.

Love,

YOURMASTER

[Kalisurfer]

The term Guru or spiritual master is a loaded one, full of misuse over the years by many men who were unqualified to be in such a position. When the word Master is used, I immediately think of servitude and powerlessness, obedience to authority with total compliance to the rules. The word sets up thoughts and remembrances of doing things that felt uncomfortable while living in the temple, questioning my own judgment and going against what felt right in the heart. Other words that come to mind when I hear the word Master are disempowerment, dependent, prejudice, self-righteousness, group think, double standards, inner circles and white lies. It creates a mental claustrophobia that seeks liberation through thoughts of individuality, freethinking based on freedom of choice and the wish to be liberated from men in saffron telling me what is true and how to lead my life.

But then I realize that when I want to learn something, I go to books and teachers in order to be taught how to do something right, be it a computer program, a foreign language or how to cook something that taste great! So I like the word Teacher and then remember being taught good things by men in saffron too, like love God with your whole heart, treat everyone equally for God is in everyone’s heart, rise early and do not be afraid to be of service to others! My mother and grandparents taught me right also, they were good teachers; a few art instructors were pretty fabulous too. My wife teaches me tolerance & compassion daily, and lets me know when I’m taking myself too seriously and reacting to my monkey mind by being able to laugh very loud. So I accept the premise that there should also exist spiritual teachers, that they should come in all sizes, shapes, colors, sexes, cultures and race, lifting the heart and mind, allowing individuality to shine while encouraging a real sense of humor. Human life can be messy and it is not a place to look for and practice perfection with an air of fear. So lets celebrate real spiritual teachers and let the word Master stay with the Bait of guruhood while we go fishing for our real spiritual authenticity.

As the Buddha once said;

Rely not on the teacher (person), but on the teaching.
Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the spirit of the words.
Rely not on theory, but on experience.

[0Open Mind0]

Guru is needed, at least this is how I see. But it is very important to make distinctions between the different concepts of who a guru is. For some persons the guru is someone you can tell about your problems, a kind of psychiatrist. For some it is a sort of dictator who tells you what to think, what to believe, what to wear, what to eat and what to drink, etc. This kind of guru - in my personal opinion - is not only useless but keeps people from growing up in a spiritual sense.

A real guru to me is a person who:
1) belongs to a tradition,
2) has high realizations on the path he follows,
3) treats his students as adults,
4) never tries to get control over his students' money or emotions.

[0planetpriya0]

I would like a guru for the perhaps selfish reason of absorbing my bad karma and negotiating my stay in the afterlife. ( which I hope is coming up after life )
There is a part of me that thinks this is wrong however so "I am stumbling through now unaided. I feel that the sky is my guru.

[extranjero]

I don't believe there is such thing as the highest level utama-adhikari guru or even worshipable guru in GV sense. All this classification of spirituality levels are so subjective and are really unnecessary. It only creates more confusion and disrespect.

Undoubtely there are many pure and spiritual persons, various saints and sadhus, whom we can associate and learn many wonderful things from them. But there is no all-knowing, omniscient and the-one-and-only-portal-to-transcendence guru whom we should declare complete and total allegiance to save our souls. Such idea just seems to me like a usual overemphasized Indian cultural thing. As others already noted practically in every activity we need a teacher and why not in the spiritual life. But while we are living in the material bodies let's be real in our relationships.

But there is another aspect which makes the spiritual master different from any high school teacher. Guru provides the intimate refuge for the disciple. All spiritual people are more or less crazy because they are interested in esoteric things that normal people consider absurd. A devotee is looking for somebody qualified to open his heart in those most intimate things. One who would understand and guide his emotions and rapture could be guru who also would increase his ecstasy by sharing his realizations with like-minded devotees.

Like Sri Krishna's guru is Radharani because She teaches Krishna to dance. Today was Radhastami. I went to the temple and there She was, so attractive decorated with garlands and ornaments. I have no slightest idea what She feels and what Krishna feels when They play together but it must be something very intimate, erotic and emotional. I would like to know about Their feeling more.

[Vanguard]

Perhaps there are altruistic, great gurus out there, but every seeker just needs to always keep their eyes open, and at the first sight of trouble, be very objective and know when to leave. I'm too young to know about the bulk of ISKCON problems, but I've read a few books (Betrayal, etc.), and it seems there's always some dark symptom at a time of danger. Plus, I think this Vaishnava concept of avoiding aparadha is utilized by institutions to point inquiring minds away from their dirty deeds (I'm sure this was said already, but this seemed like a survey thread to me )