Do You Need a Guru?, by Mariana Caplan Options

[0Oneiros0]

Has anyone read the book Do You Need a Guru?: Understanding the Student--Teacher Relationship in an Era of False Prophets by Mariana Caplan?

[Tapati]

No, but it sounds interesting!

Thanks for mentioning it. I'll be sure to check it out.

[0Oneiros0]

No, but it sounds interesting!

Thanks for mentioning it. I'll be sure to check it out.

A friend recommended the book to me (thinking, I guess, that I still suffer from some guru issues). It sounds interesting. Just wondered if anyone here had read the book.

[0gopidust0]

Krishna says you need a guru, and by the way, it's not that WE choose the guru, but the other way around. The bona-fide guru sees our heart and chooses us.
If you think you can go to Krishna directly then I guess Krishna made a mistake. He set the example by accepting a guru Himself.
When it came time for guru-daksina Krishna's guru could see that Krishna was no ordinary student but the Supreme Personality of Godhead so for daksina he sent him to the end of the universe to retrieve his long lost son or something no ordinary child could do.
Krishna also set the example of meditating on Himself, since He is Krishna. He did not drink, have sex the "right" way, and take drugs, as part of some sort of "spiritual" experience.

[Tapati]

Gopidust, that is what it says in just one of the many world religions. If you believe it and follow it, that is fine. However, many of us here don't. So we're going to continue to question the need for a guru or priest or spiritual leader of any kind.

[0gopidust0]

No problem, I can accept that.

So since we are on the subject Jesus Christ was a guru. He said," no man cometh to the father except through me.".

Mohammad was also a leader of his people, as was Lord Buddha. If you are not accepting these leaders, either Krishna, Mohammad, Buddha or Christ then I don't know what you are doing.

[0Satyabhama0]

So since we are on the subject Jesus Christ was a guru. He said," no man cometh to the father except through me."

I doubt most (any?) Chritians would agree that this is an illustration of "guru principle"

[Dhyana]

(gopidust)

...If you are not accepting these leaders, either Krishna, Mohammad, Buddha or Christ then I don't know what you are doing.

Not knowing what others are doing can be hard to tolerate.

Gopidust, you express yourself so sincerely. But please understand that many of us here are trying to find our own paths and we know the dangers involved. There are dangers in following a leader as well. We know, most of us have tried.

[0gopidust0]

"Out of thousands among men one may strive to achieve self realisation. And among those who know God(Krishna)hardly one knows him in truth." This is my opinion.
Sure there are a billion people in India and 300,000 sadhus but not too many uttama-adhikaris. This is my opinion.

[0Satyabhama0]

Just one if enough, if he or she is here with me.

[0gopidust0]

Just one if enough, if she is here with me.

If Krishna desires I might meet her too. They need to put more information on her website.

[0Hridayananda0]

They need to put more information on her website.


Yes I agree,I emailed her about a month she never get back.She and Lee
lozowick are disciples of this yogi ramsuratkumar who is most interesting to me,
yogiramsuratkumar.net check it out.Lozowick is even harder to access info from
I wish they were more open.

[Preyobrazhenya]

I think gurus are important for spiritual progress: someone with experience that has been handed down through the ages that can help me avoided common spiritual pitfalls . BUT since true gurus are rare and almost nonexistent, it is better to not have a guru. There are too many who falsely promote themselves as guru or elder and end up leading their disciples to absolute spiritual shipwreck. So the ideal and the reality are very different. Some in my own tradition have stated that there are no true Elders in this day and age - and from what I have observed this seems to be the case. So ultimately we have to do the best we can on our own. It is hard, but it is better to have no guru than a false one. (kind of like what I say about marriage - better no spouse than the wrong spouse!).

[0gopidust0]

They need to put more information on her website.

     
      Yes I agree,I emailed her about a month she never get back.She and Lee
lozowick  are disciples of this yogi ramsuratkumar who is most interesting to me,
yogiramsuratkumar.net check it out.Lozowick is even harder to access info from
I wish they were more open.

Is this Hridayananda Maharaja? We were talking about Shree Prema Pandurang, not someone who thinks Shiva and Rama and Ganesh are all the same. No, I don't think you are Hridayananda Goswami from Iskcon.

[0gopidust0]

I think gurus are important for spiritual progress: someone with experience that has been handed down through the ages that can help me avoided common spiritual pitfalls .  BUT since true gurus are rare and almost nonexistent, it is better to not have a guru.  There are too many who falsely promote themselves as guru or elder and end up leading their disciples to absolute spiritual shipwreck.  So the ideal and the reality are very different.  Some in my own tradition have stated that there are no true Elders in this day and age - and from what I have observed this seems to be the case.  So ultimately we have to do the best we can on our own.  It is hard, but it is better to have no guru than a false one. (kind of like what I say about marriage - better no spouse than the wrong spouse!).

Thank you mataji. At least if we could find a pure guru I agree she would be nice. There are Christian women, nuns, who became pure and I have read a little about them like the old sister theresa or Joan of Arc or whoever who lived hundreds of years ago and some of the nuns lived in convents following rules with Mother Superiors over them and structure.
But I have heard of bad things happening at certain convents too. Beatings and so on. Making people feel bad for having lusty desires.
I feel bad for my lusty desires but I'm working on them. I feel if we can give up lust then that is practically the hardest thing we have to do and the way that we can do it is to get more absorbed in our sadhana, praying, meditation.

[Preyobrazhenya]

I think gurus are important for spiritual progress: someone with experience that has been handed down through the ages that can help me avoided common spiritual pitfalls .  BUT since true gurus are rare and almost nonexistent, it is better to not have a guru.  There are too many who falsely promote themselves as guru or elder and end up leading their disciples to absolute spiritual shipwreck.  So the ideal and the reality are very different.  Some in my own tradition have stated that there are no true Elders in this day and age - and from what I have observed this seems to be the case.  So ultimately we have to do the best we can on our own.  It is hard, but it is better to have no guru than a false one. (kind of like what I say about marriage - better no spouse than the wrong spouse!).

Thank you mataji. At least if we could find a pure guru I agree she would be nice. There are Christian women, nuns, who became pure and I have read a little about them like the old sister theresa or Joan of Arc or whoever who lived hundreds of years ago and some of the nuns lived in convents following rules with Mother Superiors over them and structure.
But I have heard of bad things happening at certain convents too. Beatings and so on. Making people feel bad for having lusty desires.
I feel bad for my lusty desires but I'm working on them. I feel if we can give up lust then that is practically the hardest thing we have to do and the way that we can do it is to get more absorbed in our sadhana, praying, meditation.

Trying to transform lust into pure love is a lifelong struggle - this is true for someone who is practicing celibacy and for those who are in sexual relationships.
A good spiritual director knows when to be strict and when to be lenient. Strictness when it might bring the disciple to despair is not a good thing. A real guru knows whether s/he might push the disciple over the edge. Unfortunately a lot of false gurus seem to get off on pushing their disciples around and like to use the guilt that can go along with lust and falldowns as a weapon. This is out and out spiritual abuse. A true spiritual master will know how to lead the disciple to repentance and to less and less falldown. If you are striving for less lust, it is important to just move on if you come short and not let it drag you down. Just pick up and try again. You also need to find out whether the best path for you is in marriage or in celibacy. Marriage isn't something to take up just because you are lusty, but rather to take up because you want to go through life with another and grow in love. Sex should enhance that love - but not be the only reason for the marriage.

In relation to ISKCON and the 4 regs, I can see why the sex prohibition would be important for full time pujaris/priests - most traditions have had some kind of limit on sex, food and drink, etc. for those that are going to serve on an altar. I think that this is because the priest or priestess needs to be fully focused on the service and too much sense gratification can make one distracted. However, for those who are not acting in this capacity, I don't see anything wrong with marital sex. And the bottom line is that most people aren't full time priests or pujaris.

Now if only I could listen to my own words!

[0Hridayananda0]

They need to put more information on her website.
  
     
         Yes I agree,I emailed her about a month she never get back.She and Lee
lozowick  are disciples of this yogi ramsuratkumar who is most interesting to me,
yogiramsuratkumar.net check it out.Lozowick is even harder to access info from
I wish they were more open.

Is this Hridayananda Maharaja? We were talking about Shree Prema Pandurang, not someone who thinks Shiva and Rama and Ganesh are all the same. No, I don't think you are Hridayananda Goswami from Iskcon.

Well I know mariana caplan is a mayavadi but this thread is about her book or at least started off about here book and at no time is there any mention of shree
prema pandurang till now,and after doing a search the only shree prema pandurang I found doesnt look much like a Vaisnava either more like a regular 'hindu'.

[0gopidust0]

Well I know mariana caplan is a mayavadi but this thread is about her book or at least started off about here book and at no time is there any mention of shree
prema pandurang till now,and after doing a search the only shree prema pandurang I found doesnt look much like a Vaisnava either more like a regular 'hindu'.

Exactly right, my mistake, it's just that I have been speaking with Satyabhama online for a while and thought she and I were talking about Shree Prema Pandurang. Anyway, according to her website Shree Pandurang says she was fortunate to be able to speak in front of Srila Prabhupada and according to Satyabhama Prabhupada said Shree Pandurang is a gopi and she should go around the world and preach, which she is. So I am contemplating trying to see her sometime. Her tapes are a little expensive but I am not criticising just saying. Sorry Prabhuji

[angrezi]

Do I need a guru?
Hmm...I would like a transcendent guru, I think it is important, but in the realm of unlimited cognizance and bliss if the Parabrahman wants me to become realized I don't think think any guru is neccessary in a practical sense.

On another note, some observers of the Gaudiya tradition call it Guruvada, due to the overarching importance given to the guru. Tantric sadhana and Vaisnava-sahajiyism were well established in Bengal before the advent of Sri Caitanya, and one of the most paramount concerns of both are also the guru.

In other Vaisnava paths I have observed, the guru is more the connection to the sampradaya and its wisdom, and offered respect as such, but not seen as one's sole refuge in every matter or as one's 'personal messiah' as some groups encourage.

[Chanahari]

I once had the gut to speak before some Iskconers calling overemphasis of guru a kartabhaja disorder - I got some cold looks...

I never felt that I myself need a guru in a way as most Gaudiyas do, and this fact helped me greatly in leaving Iskcon. I was never initiated.

By the way, does anyone have any (karmi-scientific) knowledge whence the instituion of guru came from? My understanding is that it is the later spawn of the religious education system of pre-medieval India, and just later, in the early medieval age did it spread to non-brahmins, and began to mean what it means today.