Effeminate Beauty of the Supreme Male, feminine features in artistic imagination Options

[angrezi]

I read it as well.  It is entertaining and readable, but rather shallow.
In my opinion, The Da Vinci Code is getting much more attention than it deserves.

Then it sounds like it meets all the criteria of an American bestseller .

[babu]

December 25th is Mithra's birthday and so chosen to be Jesus' by the Emperor Constantine to make Christianity a state religion due to the popularity of Mithra. Mithra was a Zorastrian God whose roots extend to India and connections made with the Sun and so he was a solar deity. In the hood with the cross-cultural casual spreading of mythology, Gods get associated with other God's and so maybe Mithra and Osiris (do not know) were seen as the same God with a different name and so for this reason Brown may make this claim.

Yes, it bugs me too. Fiction writers need to have high standards of fact checking.

[0gopidust0]

Krishna looks like He does,plain and simple. And so do Lord Caitanya and His associates. Gadadhara is Radharani in the mood of a devotee(?)but none of them are gay at least not that I recall reading anywhere.
So it might not be that the artists are trying to depict Krishna as female but Krishna,being all attractive might just look like He does in some of those pictures.

[evakurvan]

It is true gopidust i do not like this idea of saying the pictures are just -symbols- of krsna, and then go on to analyze socio-historical context to explain the depictions, as though this is art history class, this is so pedantic. I think they are krsna.

[0gopidust0]

Yes I have just stared into Krishna's beautiful face in some of those pictures.
No offense, but then again there are other pictures I'm not so sure of.

[0Satyabhama0]

Perhaps the standard of beauty was simply different in Krishna's time. After all, even moustache-bearing arjuna wears lovely earrings and bright silks. As for the shaving thing, there is a famous deity of Krishna in south india who has a big moustache.

However, I think for people wishing to pursue Vraj bhakti, an Arjuna-esque handlebar moustache and other very masculine features don't jive with their preferred conception of Krishna as a lovely young lad of about sixteen years. As someone once told me... such a Krishna, for them, is "too muscly."

[Brainiac]

It was Krishna's muscles that first attracted me to the whole idea of God, as I wrote on GD not so long ago.

Check out these biceps!

(Yes I know its a strange picture, you don't often see Krishna depicted this way, but,...those biceps! )

 krishna_20meditating3.jpg ( 22.28K ) Number of downloads: 32


(Whoops! I had to crop and resize it to make it fit here. PM me if you would like me to send you a bigger version.)

This post has been edited by Azra`iL: Mar 19 2005, 03:47 AM

[0Satyabhama0]

I know that painting. My friend has it on his wall- it's also in the hardbound volume Yogananda's bhagavad gita commentary.

I like muscly Krishna too!

His face is also beautiful, and His tummy looks strong, and at the same time like maybe He has been munching laddus.

[Brainiac]

You can tell Him that He's always welcome to join me at the gym.

[Dhyana]

Speaking of effeminateness of male images of the Divine, I remember another peculiar thing--the protrayal of female Christian saints as voluptuous, sensuous women. I am thinking specifically of the statue of St. Anna (?) of Venice; the name escapes me right now. She is mentioned in The Talented Mr. Ripley. Her face is supposed to express divine rapture, but in Ripley's eyes she looks as if she is having a sexual orgasm. I have seen a picture of this statue, and if you don't know that this is a female saint, this will be the first thing that will come to your mind as well.

This rings a bell. I once read a book -- or was it an article? -- something academic at any rate, exploring connections between religious rapture on the one hand, and sexuality on the other. On the cover there was a photo of a statue of a female saint -- a nun, seated, in prayer, with her eyes half-closed and her face lifted up. The caption said:

God, I'm coming!

[Milla]

This rings a bell. I once read a book -- or was it an article? -- something academic at any rate, exploring connections between religious rapture on the one hand, and sexuality on the other. On the cover there was a photo of a statue of a female saint -- a nun, seated, in prayer, with her eyes half-closed and her face lifted up.

The statue in Venice depicts a woman (the saint) reclining or lying down, with her mouth slightly open. I'll try to find it again, it was quite striking.

The caption said:

Indeed! The caption says it all.

[0talasiga0]

Effeminacy may be in the eyes of the beholder .......

[0kishalaya0]

Note the effiminization of males

It's just a matter of choosing the right interval in the scale of masculinity/feminity. It seems that with devotees of kRSNa, there is a definite observable delta, yeah for both males and females .... in the same direction, that is.

[0talasiga0]

This rings a bell. I once read a book -- or was it an article? -- something academic at any rate, exploring connections between religious rapture on the one hand, and sexuality on the other. On the cover there was a photo of a statue of a female saint -- a nun, seated, in prayer, with her eyes half-closed and her face lifted up. The caption said:

God, I'm coming!

Yes! Once again, another affirmation of the ecstasy of the journey. The pilgrimage may be its own end. It is difficult to pinpoint arrival whereas coming is a continuum.

[Brainiac]

On the cover there was a photo of a statue of a female saint -- a nun, seated, in prayer, with her eyes half-closed and her face lifted up.

Sounds like St. Teresa of Avila. I recently purchased her autobiography, and interestingly enough it appears that she did enjoy conjugal sentiments with divinity.

[evakurvan]

Effeminacy may be in the eyes of the beholder .......

haha why did you remove the post of before and put this in place, I quite enjoyed the uncharicataristic GRAPHIC things you had said there in their spontaneity!

No, it is not in the eye of the beholder as much as that is an intelligent or interesting way to look at it, some things are just there. I bring any new person to the temple and they will notice this. I remember one time there was a discussion and this fourty year old lady raised her hand to say: Wow I find it so wonderful that your religion worships females!! Then the lecturer had to explain, no those aren't females!

Also I have rarely encountered so many third gender people in any other setting, except the setting of dance. Slowly you find out so many people are gay. I find this odd considering the general anti-third gender attidudes. Anyone have thoughts on this?

I don't have specific examples to illustrate now, but these sorts of conjugal and/or 'trascendentally sexual' sentiments in Christianity are quite common and I have come across them in literature often. Not just nuns for Jesus but monks for Mary. I recall once reading an account of a gay priest who was so haunted unable to concentrate on praying because of the image of Jesus practically naked on the cross, so "utterly desirable." Actually I don't think I read that, it is a quote from the movie 'The Priest.' Most things I've come across aren't like that movie quote, but in a mood of dovetailing or sublimating feelings like that toward God. Though maybe one shouldn't use those terms for that or even consider it that at all. I am not a fan of this idea that it all this boils down to a religious sublimation of our romantic / sexual drives.

Perhaps it is apt that the most "pleasurable material sensations" are used as a trope to speak about immaterial sensations. Since how are we to be capable of speaking from beyond the confines of our materility, when we are by definition confined to it.

This post has been edited by evakurvan: Mar 20 2005, 08:46 AM

[Milla]

Sounds like St. Teresa of Avila. I recently purchased her autobiography, and interestingly enough it appears that she did enjoy conjugal sentiments with divinity.

Thank you! It must be her, though the picture I first found on the web some 4-5 years ago was taken from another angle. And I don't remember an angel next her. The statue is called The Ecstasy of St. Teresa and it is by Bernini. It is to be found in Rome, in Santa Maria della Vittoria, Cornaro Chapel.

A short description:

Saint Teresa's love of God and her desire for spiritual union with him found expression in a vision in which an angel pierced her heart with a golden spear and sent her into a trance. The erotic intensity of her vision is vividly suggested in this image by Teresa's swooning expression and languid pose, and by the deep folds of drapery, which convey her agitation.

 teresa.jpg ( 86.12K ) Number of downloads: 34


Teresa described the soul's intense desire for God in the language of erotic passion. In this, she belongs to a long tradition of mystical experience that is known as bridal mysticism:

It pleased our Lord that I should see the following vision a number of times. I saw an angel near me, on the left side, in bodily form. This I am not wont to see, save very rarely.... In this vision it pleased the Lord that I should see it thus. He was not tall, but short, marvellously beautiful, with a face which shone as though he were one of the highest of the angels, who seem to be all of fire: they must be those whom we call Seraphim.... I saw in his hands a long golden spear, and at the point of the iron there seemed to be a little fire. This I thought that he thrust several times into my heart, and that it penetrated to my entrails. When he drew out the spear he seemed to be drawing them with it, leaving me all on fire with a wondrous love for God. The pain was so great that it caused me to utter several moans; and yet so exceeding sweet is this greatest of pains that it is impossible to desire to be rid of it, or for the soul to be content with less than God. (Peers, 197)

[source: Encyclopedia of Archetypal Symbolism, ARAS]

[Milla]

More about bridal mysticism:

The symbolism of bridal mysticism is found already in early gnostic forms of Christianity, where the central sacrament is called the Bridal Chamber. There the feminine soul of the gnostic unites with the masculine spirit and is in this way spiritualized, that is, liberated from the limitations of mundane existence. Related symbolism is found as well in the writings of the early Christian mystic Origen and the Neoplatonic mystic Plotinus. These three forms of mysticism are related and serve as the foundation for the history of mysticism in Christianity.

Probably, the early forms of bridal mysticism were influenced by the myth of Eros and Psyche, which was quite popular during late Hellenism. Indeed, we find a gnostic interpretation of this myth in the anonymous homily entitled Exegesis on the Soul, which describes the sacrament of the Bridal Chamber. During the Renaissance, Greek themes and images were rediscovered in Italy and elsewhere in Europe. Certainly, the form of Teresa's vision, and the symbolism illustrated here by Bernini, lies very close to the tale of the god of love and his human beloved. Psyche's name means "soul," and she begins her career as a mortal. It is because Eros loves her and wants her for his bride that Zeus is willing to elevate her to the status of an immortal. For Teresa, the moment in which she experiences the spiritual wound is but one moment in a complex drama culminating in the spiritual marriage, when such wounds will no longer be felt but are supplanted by a complete union of God and the soul on an inner level.

[Homer]

Being an archetypical simpleton I never had a problem seeing the Absolute depicted with feminine features as I always took the symbology as indicating, to me, that The Goddess or Whoever may incarnate with what ever qualities and features She may wish to display and my ideas and ideals really don’t mean a hill-o-beans.

After all, the whole cosmic manifestation springs from this Person and who am I to reason how or why?

Radha is Krsna’ better half!

[Dhyana]

Thank you! It must be her, though the picture I first found on the web some 4-5 years ago was taken from another angle. And I don't remember an angel next her. The statue is called The Ecstasy of St. Teresa and it is by Bernini. It is to be found in Rome, in Santa Maria della Vittoria, Cornaro Chapel.

Yes, Milla, this was the statue! The photo I saw had no angel in it and it was taken from almost up front, making it look less erotically suggestive than this one. Still it was striking.
Saint Clare (of Poor Clares and Saint Francis) also had erotic visions.